New horse + sarcoids = heartbreak :(

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Clare85

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We've just bought a lovely new 4yo gypsy cob. Went to view him 3 weeks ago, LOVED him, he arrived with us on 2nd May. The next day I noticed two worrying looking bald patches with raised/thickened skin on his chest area. I am certain they weren't there when I viewed him, I definitely would have noticed them.

We didn't have him vetted but if we had it would only have been a 2 stage anyway, as he's unbroken, and it may not have picked them up, especially as I don't believe they were visible at that stage. However, if I had been aware of them I wouldn't have bought him.

I've had my vet out, she took one look and confirmed my fears. She says she is 99% sure they are sarcoids. Reluctant to do a skin scrape due to the risk of exacerbating them. She wants to start Liverpool Cream asap.

I've spoken to his breeders (who we bought him from), they were as surprised and upset as we were. They love him to pieces and have kindly offered to refund us and come and pick him up. I have said yes, but I feel terribly sad and absolutely gutted at the thought of letting him go.

We've only had him a week but already he has worked his way into our hearts. He is absolutely stunning to look at, his movement is to die for (I've never seen a cob who moves like him before) and I've rarely met a more gentle, loving and good natured soul. He comes trotting straight over when we arrive at the yard and is so easy to handle and fabulous with my 3yo daughter, a real people pony.

My concern is that he has only just arrived with new people, the thought of zapping him with LP cream so soon makes me very uneasy. He has been very well handled and is very trusting, I don't want to jeopardise his trust and good nature by putting him through very aggressive treatment immediately. Also, due to the location of the lesions, I think treatment would delay us starting his training as it would make him quite sore. As they are around his chest area, I am also worried that putting a roller, and later a girth, on him may stimulate other sarcoids to come to the surface in that area, which would be a nightmare.

I just feel so awful about the thought of sending him back. My heart wants me to keep him and see how treatment goes, but my head is saying "don't be stupid, send him back". Obviously any treatment would not be covered by insurance as the problem has cropped up within the exclusion period. We do not have a bottomless pit of money to treat indefinitely, and these things have a tendency to spiral out of control cost-wise, which means his long term future would be quite uncertain if treatment did not work.

I feel I should stick with my decision for him to return to his breeders as it would be best for his welfare and long term future, but I just wanted some opinions of what others would do in this situation. This really is an utterly heartbreaking situation for me, I was so excited about the future with this wonderful boy. TIA for any advice/opinions.
 
Take some close up pictures and send them to Jeremy Kemp-Symonds who is a specialist in sarcoids and ask for his advise before you do anything else.
 
KautoStar1 said:
Take some close up pictures and send them to Jeremy Kemp-Symonds who is a specialist in sarcoids and ask for his advise before you do anything else.
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I have sent some pictures to Liverpool University and have just 5 minutes ago received a response from Derek Knottenbelt. He has basically said what I feel regarding treatment, that if we are going to go ahead we have to really go for them to try and eradicate them before they get out of hand. Doing nothing is obviously not an option.
 
Liverpool cream isn't the only treatment - there are lots more that are effective, cheaper and less painful for the horse. I've used SarcOff in the past with fantastic results, I had to demand that my vet get some in for me (which they did) - used it on a filly who had a huge one in her armpit, 1 week later it dropped off and we never had any more. After that we used it on a couple more at the stud and it worked every time.

Would it be worth your while speaking to the breeders and seeing if you can negotiate that he stays with you for a few more weeks to see if they can be cleared up easily?
 
First of all, how lovely that the seller has offered to take him back, even though they weren't picked up when you bought him :)

If he is perfect in every other way I would keep him, and liverpool cream is not the only treatment.

I presume insurance will not pay as he is a new purchase, so it may be worth exploring other options.
 
I've used camrosa ointment on 2 horses - never had any problems and the sarcoids didn't come back. Used it on both the flat type of sarcoid and on more bulbous dangly types. Two were in the chest area where a martingale or breastplate would rest and two were on the inside hind leg.
It may take a little longer than Liverpool Cream but it didn't seem to cause any discomfort and one of the horses would definitely have let us know if it had!
 
madlady said:
Liverpool cream isn't the only treatment - there are lots more that are effective, cheaper and less painful for the horse. I've used SarcOff in the past with fantastic results, I had to demand that my vet get some in for me (which they did) - used it on a filly who had a huge one in her armpit, 1 week later it dropped off and we never had any more. After that we used it on a couple more at the stud and it worked every time.

Would it be worth your while speaking to the breeders and seeing if you can negotiate that he stays with you for a few more weeks to see if they can be cleared up easily?
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Thank you, I am researching other treatments available. It's the unpredictability of sarcoids that is quite scary and the fact that some alternative treatments work for one case but can make another case worse.

I don't feel it would be fair of me to ask the breeders to hang on while we fiddle about with treatments which may or may not work. I think we either need to take ownership of it and accept the risks or send him back without further interference.

LJR said:
First of all, how lovely that the seller has offered to take him back, even though they weren't picked up when you bought him :)

If he is perfect in every other way I would keep him, and liverpool cream is not the only treatment.

I presume insurance will not pay as he is a new purchase, so it may be worth exploring other options.
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Yes, a testament to how much they think of the horse, he really is fabulous.

Insurance won't pay. I just worry about his long term future if treatment doesn't work and we can't keep paying out if costs spiral.
 
Blackwijet said:
I've used camrosa ointment on 2 horses - never had any problems and the sarcoids didn't come back. Used it on both the flat type of sarcoid and on more bulbous dangly types. Two were in the chest area where a martingale or breastplate would rest and two were on the inside hind leg.
It may take a little longer than Liverpool Cream but it didn't seem to cause any discomfort and one of the horses would definitely have let us know if it had!
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Thank you, there are so many alternatives, it's very difficult to decide which we would try first if we go down that route.
 
Sorry i would be sending him back, If they are evident now they are likely to continue and as he is only young its not the best outlook.

Plus the fact it wont be covered by insurance can you afford to foot the bill for years to come?
 
dianchi said:
Sorry i would be sending him back, If they are evident now they are likely to continue and as he is only young its not the best outlook.

Plus the fact it wont be covered by insurance can you afford to foot the bill for years to come?
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Sadly I agree with the above, but on return to the dealer I would be wondering whether he will be sold on to some other poor sod - I know its buyer beware, and at least now the sarcoids (if thats what they are) are obvious but some one will no doubt get caught out like you. What a horrid position to be in, so sorry for you. x
 
Depending on what you want him for, I honestly couldn't send him back.

But then I have a mare who has sarcoids that flared up once, one grew and fell off, and she just has the patch now, I have never treated it, I just keep an eye on the area, she is 14 now, and I have had her 11years.
 
I would send him back personally- a young horse with sarcoids would worry me that they are going to keep popping up
 
Can I just add into the mix that often young horses will develop sarcoids which then disappear/drop off within a year or so. It is something to do with their immune system developing around the 3-4 years of age time. I bought a 3.5yo with a sarcoid which I didn't notice until after he arrived (not vetted). It was only about the size of my little fingernail and came up like a little mushroom. I treated it with Thuja cream and fed him Sarc-Ex and it gradually shrivelled and died over a 6-month period. He never got another one.

If your boy's have come up that quickly and you have fallen in love with him, I reckon you should hang on to him and risk it.
 
I'd be sending him back OP, sarcoids can be both expensive and heartbreaking and I would not treat them differently to that advised by prof KB, and think it foolish to do so.
 
I bought a horse with 2 biggish sarcoids, gave him homeopathic thuja, both disappeared within months and 4 years later has had no recurrence. The hair has grown back, you wouldn't know he had had sarcoids at all. I wonder how many horses who 'don't' have them have had them previously
 
For every encouraging story there's a bad one re sarcoids. I lost my lovely horse to sarcoids all in the groin area, initially we treated them conservatively then moved on to the LP cream. He then he had a haemorrhage in the field - the root had grown into the artery and he ruptured it hooning about with a mate. I would never touch anything with even a hint of one, but that's because I had a bad experience. Bede above has been fine, so would probably be happy to go for it.

No vet will give you a definitive answer as they are so unpredictable, but in the end you have to decide whether it's an acceptable risk. Not much help really, but I hope you get it sorted.
 
Thank you for all your comments. I have discussed things today with our vet and have done lots of research online. My feeling, sadly, is still that we will be returning him to his breeder. I am not concerned that they will try to offload him onto someone else, they genuinely think an awful lot of this boy and this has come as a shock to them also. They don't have to take him back but they want to. They have lots of land and the setup to be able to offer him various options. I sincerely hope they can get on top of the issue and that he goes on to have a long, successful career. Sadly, the options we could offer him if treatment didn't work well would be quite limited. It's a very sad situation for us, poor lad, one of those things :(

Sorry to hear about your boy frostyfingers, that's so sad :(
 
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Please don't anyone use Camrosa as someone posted earlier. They used to market it for sarcoid removal and had to stop because it sends some sarcoids into overdrive and they become much more serious. That's why it's been removed from their advertising. I believe they were sued at the time, which was a good few years ago now.
 
Clare85 said:
Thank you for all your comments. I have discussed things today with our vet and have done lots of research online. My feeling, sadly, is still that we will be returning him to his breeder. I am not concerned that they will try to offload him onto someone else, they genuinely think an awful lot of this boy and this has come as a shock to them also. They don't have to take him back but they want to. They have lots of land and the setup to be able to offer him various options. I sincerely hope they can get on top of the issue and that he goes on to have a long, successful career. Sadly, the options we could offer him if treatment didn't work well would be quite limited. It's a very sad situation for us, poor lad, one of those things :(

Sorry to hear about your boy frostyfingers, that's so sad :(
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I think the marvelous stud that bred him deserves naming if they will let you. They are a credit to the horse breeding/selling industry.
 
We bought a mare that had a grey thickened area on her face similar to a chestnut on a horses leg ,our vet thought sarcoid and sent photos to Proff D k the sarcoid expert at Leahurst equine hospital,he confirmed it was a Sarcoid and recommended Liverpool cream.
I did my own research and convinced it was fungal I treated it my self with Canistan cream ,bought from the chemist which cleared it completely ,that was about ten years ago.
A couple of people on here have had so called sarcoids removed from horses that were tested after removal and also found to be fungal.
If I was you and really liked the horse ,I would ask the person who sold the horse about getting a biopsy sent to a lab for testing,surely they would be keen to know ,and if it turns out to be fungal you are looking at spending about £10 to treat it .
He sounds lovely I would want to keep him .
 
I think that my mares are the ones that you are thinking of Shergar. My grey's lumps were thought to be melanomas, but on testing at the lab were found to be fungal. Unfortunately it is not the type that would respond to a topical treatment. So far she's had five lumps removed in three separate operations and the cost is a lot more than £10. :( I have had lengthy conversations about leaving the lumps and also systemic antifungal treatments, but removing each lump as it grows has been decided as the best course of action. Hopefully she won't grow any more as large borders have also been taken off with the lumps. *crosses fingers*

My chestnut mare started to grow a lump above her eye. This was thought to be a sarcoid and a photo was sent to prof K and it was advised that it should be removed with a large border and not stitched. A biopsy was definitely not to be done as this can cause sarcoids to worsen exponentially. On histology the lump turned out to be not a sarcoid but a benign tumour (keratoma).
 
Yes there is a reason they don't biopsy and test afterwards.

We didn't biopsy Frank's suspected squamous cell carcinoma just treated asap. Sometimes you do have to put your trust/faith in the experts on the basis they have seen more than you have and I would rather they err on the side of caution (no one can be right 100% of the time) and say sarcoid when not than the other way round.

Shergar did you ever test it to be fungal? Sarcoids can resolve themselves so it might not have been the canestan!
 
ycbm said:
I think the marvelous stud that bred him deserves naming if they will let you. They are a credit to the horse breeding/selling industry.
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They are really lovely people whose main priority is their lovely horses. I don't feel comfortable naming them tbh what with the current situation. But they have been so nice to deal with.

shergar said:
We bought a mare that had a grey thickened area on her face similar to a chestnut on a horses leg ,our vet thought sarcoid and sent photos to Proff D k the sarcoid expert at Leahurst equine hospital,he confirmed it was a Sarcoid and recommended Liverpool cream.
I did my own research and convinced it was fungal I treated it my self with Canistan cream ,bought from the chemist which cleared it completely ,that was about ten years ago.
A couple of people on here have had so called sarcoids removed from horses that were tested after removal and also found to be fungal.
If I was you and really liked the horse ,I would ask the person who sold the horse about getting a biopsy sent to a lab for testing,surely they would be keen to know ,and if it turns out to be fungal you are looking at spending about £10 to treat it .
He sounds lovely I would want to keep him .
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Unfortunately taking a biopsy can cause sarcoids to worsen considerably, very very quickly. I'm very reluctant to try this. My first thought upon discovering the lesions was "oh s***, he's got sarcoids", the vet completely agreed. I think a skin scrape would do more harm than good :(

Faracat said:
I think that my mares are the ones that you are thinking of Shergar. My grey's lumps were thought to be melanomas, but on testing at the lab were found to be fungal. Unfortunately it is not the type that would respond to a topical treatment. So far she's had five lumps removed in three separate operations and the cost is a lot more than £10. :( I have had lengthy conversations about leaving the lumps and also systemic antifungal treatments, but removing each lump as it grows has been decided as the best course of action. Hopefully she won't grow any more as large borders have also been taken off with the lumps. *crosses fingers*

My chestnut mare started to grow a lump above her eye. This was thought to be a sarcoid and a photo was sent to prof K and it was advised that it should be removed with a large border and not stitched. A biopsy was definitely not to be done as this can cause sarcoids to worsen exponentially. On histology the lump turned out to be not a sarcoid but a benign tumour (keratoma).
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All the best with your mare Faracat, I hope she doesn't develop any further lumps.
 
What an awful situation for you, and one that I don't envy.

My young horse is peppered with sarcoids and we have tried everything. On Monday he is being 'hors-pitalised' for 2 weeks whilst they try yet again (4th time) to remove them with Liverpool cream - this time 5 applications over 10 days. The one on his face and ear are being lasered.

He started with one small one on his sheath when rising 4, now rising 6 we have lost count of how many he has. However his mum had them at the same age and they went with a single Liverpool treatment (3 applications over 6 days) they never came back and we eventually lost her at 18 to something unconnected.

A biopsy was taken of a small lump on my youngster's shoulder last year which confirmed it was another sarcoid. It was cut out and frozen, but it's come back. Some in his axilla have been treated with bloodroot, banded, and Liverpool cream 3 times and they have still come back.

So my experience is not a good one. Whilst a lot of people may have horses where the sarcoids have been successfully treated, as I was with my mare, there are a lot of us that have sarcoid horses that are very difficult to treat. There is no one treatment that cures all sarcoids, some respond to one treatment, and others to another. It is also an expensive procedure and it appears to be normal for an insurance company to only offer cover for 12 months. I have had to budget between £1,000 and £2,000 annually for his treatment to keep them under control.

What I would say though is despite all the treatments my youngster has had, and there is no doubt he must have been in pain with it, he has kept his wonderful cheerful personality. He doesn't even hold it against the vet when she comes to visit.
 
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