LaceyThornhill
Member
I meant for C to see how he’s doing. Ellie does visit him regular.
New horse! With photos
- Thread starter catembi
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BBP
Well-Known Member
That is my understanding. My understanding is perhaps too simplistic having gone through all this before the genetic tests were developed but, Polysaccharide storage myopathy causes tying up by a range of mechanisms related to how the cells take up and store glycogen (cells becoming so full of glycogen that they split open and ooze gunk and cause a breakdown in muscle function). I’m not super clued up on the MFM side. The gene identified by Px is linked to the calcium channel and regulation of calcium and has nothing to do with glycogen within the cells. Calcium and magnesium regulation are a key part of the mechanism of muscle sarcomere contraction and relaxation. In effect, under high stress, affected horses suffer an excessive release of calcium from the sarcoplasmic reticulum, causing excessive prolonged muscle contraction and disruption to cellular function. The excessive calcium then blocks the receptor sites for magnesium, making it hard for the muscles to relax again.
So I think by referring to Px as a PSSM variant it misleads people into misunderstanding the cause of the problem. The university of Michigan doesn’t seem to support the Px genetic test as they haven’t found that gene present in skeletal muscle of either normal or RER horses. The biopsy shows the presence of centrally located nuclei but no abnormal glycogen. That was BBPs result.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
In fairness, it sounds like Ellie was told nothing of this when she bought the horse and he seems to have been doing really well with her (and with Lacey). This is great news, and I think we should all be happy for the horse and save our annoyance for the woman who originally sold the horse to Ellie without disclosing how/ why he'd ended up with her. Both Ellie and Lacey seem to have joined this thread in good faith, because they are/ were very pleased with their new horse and thought Catembi might be interested.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
That was the point. My criticism was of EllieCodd not telling her the history when she sold her the horse. The person I really feel for in all this is Catembi.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Very interesting, thank you. It does sound as if the Px may be a complete red herring. I hope Lacey and he have a lot of fun for a long time to come.
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BBP
Well-Known Member
He is a naturally anxious horse so triggers quite easily. He is also hypermobile and has vitamin e deficiency myopathy so it is now a little hard to know which symptom comes from that and which comes from the RER. However the RER specific symptom is muscle fasiculations. He has never tied up acutely but you will see visible involuntary muscle contractions through his whole body (the video of him colicing is the only example I have caught on film). He will start off his stress response usually with heart pounding and legs trembling, then his muscles all go rock solid with tension and then he will start to shake all over. At this point he becomes almost uncontrollable as his whole body is screaming at him to run away. Interestingly, with many RER horses, if you take the pressure valve off and let them respond to the stress (by galloping around for example) you will see far less muscle damage (so young RER racehorses can cope fine if allowed to gallop, but if held up at the bottom of the gallops, the stress can trigger an attack). So if I am at home and he is stressed I can let him run free in the arena or field and he will generally be okay, but if out hacking or at a competition he would absolutely lose his mind and would blood test with high levels of CK and AST afterwards. His movement in the trot and canter will be very western pleasure jog/lope like afterwards
LaceyThornhill
Member
I can keep C updated on the thread, though won’t do so if it will cause more trouble then I intend to do. Let me know if anyone would like updates 
LaceyThornhill
Member
This is correct, Ellie did not know of this until the thread was found and I didn’t until messaging about some background on him.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
I find it sad that in the last 18 months, this horse has had 5 homes.
Anyway I hope the current owner can offer a secure future for him.
Anyway I hope the current owner can offer a secure future for him.
FlyingCircus
Well-Known Member
At only 4 years old by looks of it
PinkvSantaboots
Well-Known Member
I just ask because Arabi is a mild head shaker caused by guttural pouch infections which we think has now caused nerve damage, his only coliced twice both times he trembled I've also noticed if he gets really upset about something he shakes and that can trigger the head shaking.
I've never had any reason to think he has pssm his muscles are normal and his generally ok to ride quite forward and happy, sometimes a bit too jolly but his always had a tendency to be hot in some situations.
Do you think it would be worth testing or supplementing his diet with something?
catembi
Well-Known Member
When this thread first re-emerged, I messaged the companion home to ask how he was doing and got the evasive response ‘all fine’. I then said, that’s interesting, because he’s popped up on here in a new ridden home. She then backtracked and said that he was too good to waste in the field etc etc and she’d explained to the new owner that he might not be able to do much etc ?
What it appears that she meant is that she wanted some easy money.
To pick up on a technical point made above re how the tying up can work…I took Leroy to an in-hand obstacle exploring clinic. It went on for a bit too long but I wasn’t sure how to politely leave. He was spooked by pretty much nothing outside the arena and went absolutely berserk. He was on a lunge line not a lead rope and I had my gloves on thank goodness as it was full on horse shaped kite nuts. Out of nowhere when he had been totally laid back throughout. My QHxTB p1/p3/px/px also used to explore out of nowhere, being naturally laid back, then started collapsing without warning under saddle. I would not personally feel safe riding something which (arguably) has a reason to explode. My QH really scared me a few times as his brain simply switched off, he totally flipped out and it was impossible to ride him through it. Hence giving up earlier with Leroy and starting again (only to end up with a p2/p3/px).
I sincerely hope that what happened at the clinic that time was a one-off and whatever grouping of stimuli that may have prompted it never recurs. I would never again want to be on an exploding PSSM and it wasn’t much fun trying to manage one on the lunge ?
What it appears that she meant is that she wanted some easy money. To pick up on a technical point made above re how the tying up can work…I took Leroy to an in-hand obstacle exploring clinic. It went on for a bit too long but I wasn’t sure how to politely leave. He was spooked by pretty much nothing outside the arena and went absolutely berserk. He was on a lunge line not a lead rope and I had my gloves on thank goodness as it was full on horse shaped kite nuts. Out of nowhere when he had been totally laid back throughout. My QHxTB p1/p3/px/px also used to explore out of nowhere, being naturally laid back, then started collapsing without warning under saddle. I would not personally feel safe riding something which (arguably) has a reason to explode. My QH really scared me a few times as his brain simply switched off, he totally flipped out and it was impossible to ride him through it. Hence giving up earlier with Leroy and starting again (only to end up with a p2/p3/px).
I sincerely hope that what happened at the clinic that time was a one-off and whatever grouping of stimuli that may have prompted it never recurs. I would never again want to be on an exploding PSSM and it wasn’t much fun trying to manage one on the lunge ?
SEL
Well-Known Member
Exploding out of nowhere is sadly a typical myopathy presentation - people tend to think they get 'stuck' but actually I think the flight or fight response kicks in when their body starts to struggle hence the explosions. Its not pleasant to be on board nor on the floor when it happens.
I knew a polo pony (Argentinian breeding) who had RER and I found it harder to watch an attack than watching my PSSM mare.
If he was fighting fit mid season then he rarely had issues providing he was properly warmed up. Bringing back into work after winter was tough (he'd winter out naked). He was very, very hot to ride but needed to be kept in walk on a loose rein for 20 minutes - except his brain didn't want to comply. He would wind himself up and if the gallop could be timed correctly then he'd be fine, but if he'd thrown himself around then he'd suddenly seize up and would stand quivering. His owners found out about dantrolene and that seemed to be enough to keep his muscles working.
I read up on the PX gene (I know quite a few people whose horses have been diagnosed with that via the German DNA company) and it is believed there is some link to RER in that it is to do with calcium regulation but as BBP says Valberg's team couldn't tie up the genetic results with muscle biopsies and that's one where i would have thought it would be pretty straightforward (my biggest moan about Equiseq is the lack of biopsies to back up their DNA tests)
I feel for Catembi passing him on in good faith but hopefully the new owners can read up and manage him accordingly. Lots and lots of work and a low stress environment seems to be the way forward. The polo pony I mentioned above was retired to a teenager who does all sorts with him - I've been told he's thriving away from polo so perhaps that excitement was too much.
I knew a polo pony (Argentinian breeding) who had RER and I found it harder to watch an attack than watching my PSSM mare.
If he was fighting fit mid season then he rarely had issues providing he was properly warmed up. Bringing back into work after winter was tough (he'd winter out naked). He was very, very hot to ride but needed to be kept in walk on a loose rein for 20 minutes - except his brain didn't want to comply. He would wind himself up and if the gallop could be timed correctly then he'd be fine, but if he'd thrown himself around then he'd suddenly seize up and would stand quivering. His owners found out about dantrolene and that seemed to be enough to keep his muscles working.
I read up on the PX gene (I know quite a few people whose horses have been diagnosed with that via the German DNA company) and it is believed there is some link to RER in that it is to do with calcium regulation but as BBP says Valberg's team couldn't tie up the genetic results with muscle biopsies and that's one where i would have thought it would be pretty straightforward (my biggest moan about Equiseq is the lack of biopsies to back up their DNA tests)
I feel for Catembi passing him on in good faith but hopefully the new owners can read up and manage him accordingly. Lots and lots of work and a low stress environment seems to be the way forward. The polo pony I mentioned above was retired to a teenager who does all sorts with him - I've been told he's thriving away from polo so perhaps that excitement was too much.
Palindrome
Well-Known Member
But "Ellie" knew when she sold him to you as she had been told and supposedly didn't test him again but sold him on very shortly after without full disclosure?
You don't seem annoyed with her, personally I would be. You said you bought him 2 months ago, yet she was raving on the forum 2 months ago how he was going to be her top competition horse.
TPO
🤠🏴
@catembi have you had your soil/grazing/water/hay tested?
Just seems so strange to have had so many horses in succession be OK when you buy them then all present in the same way. Now for one or two others to appear OK in the new homes and be up to work.
Way back in the dark days mum lost a horse to a deficiency. Horse was fine prior to purchase and stumped all the vets. It happened to another horse and on their further investigation it was a mineral (I think) deficiency. Horse recovered when moved to a new yard.
I know you go above and beyond for your horses and you've possibly already tested everything. I know all about a run of bad luck with horses too, it's just strange how specific it is with yours- mine like to spread it about ? Wishing you all the best going forward.
Just seems so strange to have had so many horses in succession be OK when you buy them then all present in the same way. Now for one or two others to appear OK in the new homes and be up to work.
Way back in the dark days mum lost a horse to a deficiency. Horse was fine prior to purchase and stumped all the vets. It happened to another horse and on their further investigation it was a mineral (I think) deficiency. Horse recovered when moved to a new yard.
I know you go above and beyond for your horses and you've possibly already tested everything. I know all about a run of bad luck with horses too, it's just strange how specific it is with yours- mine like to spread it about ? Wishing you all the best going forward.
clinkerbuilt
Well-Known Member
I mean, to me, those posts seem now like an online search insurance measure: if anyone googled the passport name while they were deciding to buy, they might only have found the PSSM account, whereas Ellie was selling him as a potential competition horse.
nutjob
Well-Known Member
The previous owner only had the horse for 2 months before selling on. It's not very long to say that everything is OK, especially as it was injured for part of that time. The she then sold it without disclosing the genetic information.
Having said that, I keep my horses at home and have had various blood tests for assorted unrelated reasons. A number of different horses had similar deficiencies (not serious) which vets dismissed as not related to the issues on hand. I now feed a good quality supplement all year round and the horses I have now get a lot of hay which is bought in and I haven't seen this issue recently. So I do agree with you that there could be something amiss with the land.
@catembi you have done your best to disclose everything you know about the horse, it's out of your hands now.
SantaVera
Well-Known Member
Gorgeous and that very special running heart shaped star! super.
LaceyThornhill
Member
I’m not annoyed with Ellie, we’ve spoke about it and left it at that.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
As I said upthread, I do think that they can settle in a different environment. Maybe with less lush grass.
I'm glad he is doing well as he looks a sweetheart!
I'm glad he is doing well as he looks a sweetheart!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Good luck with him. He’s a lovely boy and deserves the best. I’m sure that we all wish you many happy years together.
PinkvSantaboots
Well-Known Member
This thread actually proves that there are a lot of unscrupulous people that will happily pass on horses without disclosing important information.
All I can say is I hope they can sleep at night and it's a sad fact that most people are just not to be trusted ?
All I can say is I hope they can sleep at night and it's a sad fact that most people are just not to be trusted ?
catembi
Well-Known Member
Two of my PSSMs went symptomatic at my last house half an hour away with completely different grazing, soil, set up etc. I managed to get my old mare to 40 years old, in the family since she was 3 and I was 5, until Cushings and various other health issues accumulated. I did not give her PSSM. The late Catembi did not have PSSM. He died of protein losing enteropathy. Yes, that was 100% my fault as I let him graze on next door’s land which my house’s previous owners had done and which I didn’t realise was contaminated. So yes, I killed him, but I didn’t give him PSSM. Trev and Adrian went symptomatic there but Jenny (40) and Catembi didn’t.
At this house, I have had Summer, whom I didn’t give PSSM, sold because we just didn’t get on. The next three were unbacked or just backed, and affected horses don’t tend to go symptomatic til in proper work. Thor was in light/no work when purchased with a very sketchy history.
I have had a variety of feeding regimes over the years, different supplements, blood tested Adrian and Trev somewhat exhaustively, Adrian spent a very expensive 10 days at Rossdales and had every test under the sun… Nothing. Adrian is now 20 and is doing very low level dressage at a plod with his owner who has had him since 6, which is all I could get out of him. His full brother retired after the water jump in the 2007 Hickstead Derby and his half brother came 2nd, so that’s what he should have been doing. He also spent 2 years at a trekking centre 200 miles away with no miraculous recovery.
Trev went to retirement livery for about two years and went on loan for 9 months with no miraculous recovery.
My quarter horse…a lady with a horse closely related contacted me with the inside info that he had previously been started, it had gone wrong, he’d been turned away and then very quietly brought back into work so he could be sold before the wheels came off again. So I didn’t cause his PSSM, although I was lucky to walk away when he collapsed on top of me.
I really seriously resent the accusation of being some sort of PSSM Typhoid Mary. It hurts my feelings more than I can say. It’s bad enough that I can only walk in my £60k arena for 20 minutes a day and am only using my lorry to transport poo. It is absolutely killing me, and I usually feel as if I can’t even say anything about it on here, which is my only source of support as mine are at home, so no other horse people, because someone will voice that I must be ‘doing something’ or worse, imagining it. I just want to ride and compete and I can’t because I don’t want to dispose of anyone and I don’t have the time, money or land for five.
Hey ho, time to step away from the thread as I am genuinely upset
At this house, I have had Summer, whom I didn’t give PSSM, sold because we just didn’t get on. The next three were unbacked or just backed, and affected horses don’t tend to go symptomatic til in proper work. Thor was in light/no work when purchased with a very sketchy history.
I have had a variety of feeding regimes over the years, different supplements, blood tested Adrian and Trev somewhat exhaustively, Adrian spent a very expensive 10 days at Rossdales and had every test under the sun… Nothing. Adrian is now 20 and is doing very low level dressage at a plod with his owner who has had him since 6, which is all I could get out of him. His full brother retired after the water jump in the 2007 Hickstead Derby and his half brother came 2nd, so that’s what he should have been doing. He also spent 2 years at a trekking centre 200 miles away with no miraculous recovery.
Trev went to retirement livery for about two years and went on loan for 9 months with no miraculous recovery.
My quarter horse…a lady with a horse closely related contacted me with the inside info that he had previously been started, it had gone wrong, he’d been turned away and then very quietly brought back into work so he could be sold before the wheels came off again. So I didn’t cause his PSSM, although I was lucky to walk away when he collapsed on top of me.
I really seriously resent the accusation of being some sort of PSSM Typhoid Mary. It hurts my feelings more than I can say. It’s bad enough that I can only walk in my £60k arena for 20 minutes a day and am only using my lorry to transport poo. It is absolutely killing me, and I usually feel as if I can’t even say anything about it on here, which is my only source of support as mine are at home, so no other horse people, because someone will voice that I must be ‘doing something’ or worse, imagining it. I just want to ride and compete and I can’t because I don’t want to dispose of anyone and I don’t have the time, money or land for five.
Hey ho, time to step away from the thread as I am genuinely upset
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Please don't be upset, I don't think anyone meant to suggest that you caused the PSSM in any way. I think it was more that it might be something to do with your land, but obviously doesn't sound like that is the case as you've actually been on different yards when the PSSM symptoms have come up. I genuinely don't think any offence was meant, but understand why it is a sensitive subject.
FlyingCircus
Well-Known Member
Hugs in your direction.
Horses can be heartbreaking enough without being made to feel pants about your awful luck.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I’m sure people are only trying to help and we all know how hard you have tried with your horses. It’s just bad luck and sometimes it happens to good people. Hope you stay around and try not to be upset
TPO
🤠🏴
Just to clarify I did NOT say that you gave your horses anything/PSSM.
I simply asked if you'd tested soil etc as sometimes that's the missing piece. I'm guessing that you haven't from your reply and that is 100% your business and perogative. It was a solution for a similar case I knew of hence posting about it just in case it could help in anyway, clearly i was wrong.
Wishing you all the best with your current and future horses and I hope that you get to use your arena.
I simply asked if you'd tested soil etc as sometimes that's the missing piece. I'm guessing that you haven't from your reply and that is 100% your business and perogative. It was a solution for a similar case I knew of hence posting about it just in case it could help in anyway, clearly i was wrong.
Wishing you all the best with your current and future horses and I hope that you get to use your arena.
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Muscle issues are tricky and can so easily be seen as something else. When my big horse is ok you really wouldn't know there was anything wrong with him, and even if you saw him on a bad day you would probably just assume that I was riding badly, hell, sometimes I wonder that. And while I don't discount that the 'right' environmental conditions could reduce his symptoms to almost nothing (he is a lot better at my current place than anywhere before, so I guess it's possible), I also wouldn't expect a particularly full appraisal of his issues (or not) from someone who had known him 2 months.
Of course we all hope that this horse is in a long term home now and will stay fit and well, but that doesn't change the facts as you knew them at the time and that you dealt with the issues he presented in the best way you could. Such is life sometimes, try not to take anything said to heart x
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I was certainly not saying that you had done something to the horses. In fact, early in the thread I gave an example of a friend who had a lovely horse who only became symptomatic when moved home, to a more lush pasture. It was the same owner, same very experienced owner. Same thoughtful treatment, but the new land didn't agree with him. Once back in the previous area, he thrived again. Other horses she has in the new yard are fine, the new set up simply set that one off.
If it has been in two separate yards, in different areas, then this is not likely to be the case.
Dexter
Well-Known Member
People don't understand PSSM and here are a lot of people happy to dismiss the symptoms. It doesn't help that the test isn't accurate which just throws doubt on it.
I'm sorry this has happened to you. I've only dealt with Type 1 but I know the absolute misery Type 2 causes. I love young horses but will only buy them from 7 up now and having been in solid work for an extended period of time. Its the only way I can think of to mitigate the risk.
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