New Navicular Treatment - Tildren - UPDATE (long)

[josephinebutter2]

Some of you may remember last September I posted about my 6 year old horses recent diagnosis of medullar navicular and damaged medial collateral ligaments.

He had Tildren for the navicular and shockwave therapy for the ligaments.

Well after 4 months box rest with controlled walking, I finally started bringing him back into work 4 weeks ago. Just hacking - all was going well (apart from my horse turning from an obedient, calm and well mannered ride, into a complete loon) and we were gradually increasing the trot work. Then over the past week he has started to go downhill again – started getting grumpy, then taking really choppy strides in front and lame on a small circle.

Spoke to vet and he said there is not a lot more we can do. I suggested giving him a year off and he said that may help. He had one case a couple of years back where the horse went back to jumping after a year off. But that is once case out of god knows how many navicular cases he will have seen in his time. Plus vet said you could give him a year off and he seems fine, but once you start working him again he will just go lame again.

He said the only other option is a steroid injection into the navicular area, but this does have a high risk of infection. This may keep him sound for 6 months, but is unlikely to improve the degeneration and is not usually used for this type of condition.

So my dilemma is – do I
1) pay out even more money - £4,500 spent so far – for a high risk injection which may not even work and could make thinks much worse
2) give him a year off and see if time and nature do their thing, or
3) resign myself to the fact that I’ve done all I can and give him the summer off and have him put to sleep

Advice/experiences much appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Alibear]

Is he not insured for loss of use? That's the route I'd be going now.

 

[lillie07]

I think the steroid injection into the navicular area is worth a try- nothing lost nothing gained... My mare had the injection about a fortnight ago and we hav'nt worked her up since so not sure if it has done any good or not but will let you know. The risk of infection is only high if you let it, if you are careful you should be fine.

I posted on here a few weeks ago about Navicular and the responce was fab- try searching it. There was one case maybe more than turned a horse with Navicular away and is now back out competing.

Good luck with whatever you decide

 

[lizzie_liz]

based on the vets diagnosis of my mare who was diagnosed with navicular in 2002. she had 1 steroid injection. she remained lame so we claimed LOU and turned her away. when she came sound we bought her back into work slowly and 4 years later started competing her again. she has remained sound ever since she came back into work. but as i am away at uni she only gets worked hard when i am home. but is going better then ever.
but someone on here said she may have been diagnosed

 

[Fairynuff]

If he were mine I'd give him the year off. He's only six so if he comes back in as a seven year old he hasnt lost much time and you havent spent more money on expensive treatments. You could consider the injection after the years rest if "Doc Green" hasnt worked. Have you considered de-nerving? M.

 

[mrussell]

Long shot here but if youve nothing to loose...

try cytek shoes.

Ive got my fella in them. He has Nav syndrome (some changes to the bone but not enough for Newmarket to class it as Nav disease).

He was paddock jewellery according to the experts but I gave cytek a go and he has been sound now for 2 years...

There are a lot of people for whom they work...and some people dont like them but I had to no other choice but to try them myself...

Cannot go back to rim shoes or natural balance as he is back to square one in them....but whilst the cyteks keep him happy... why would I need to?!

PM me if you want advcie as there are a lot of wives tales about them that are not true....

 

[jojoebony]

Would it make any difference if he had the injection now or if you waited a year to the overall effect? IE Could you turn him away fro the year and see what happens that way and then try the injection if that doesn't work or will it have lost it's effect?

You have my sympathy my boy has just been diagnosed at 3.5 years and is crippled at mo. Vet says to turn away for a year and see what happens. But sometimes it's just not that easy.

Hope you get sorted

 

[brightmount]

Two words, Equine Podiatry.

I try not to get too boring about it on these forums, but my horse was just days away from being PTS for navicular when I bumped into an Equine Podiatrist (KC LaPierre method) who agreed to take her on as a project. We are one year down the road, and she is doing everything again, even competing. My daughter has just brought home another rosette this evening.

It's a long story, and I would be happy to go into our case in more depth if you want to PM me, but Equine Podiatry is the way to go with navicular, its success rate is unquestionable and vets are beginning to take it seriously. You do need commitment to the programme though to make it work - but you clearly love your horse.

You can find your nearest EP on this website:

http://www.equinepodiatry.org.uk/

And more about the KC trim here:

http://www.equinepodiatry.net/

 

[GatefieldHorses]

lynwood, what sort of cost is this treatment for navicular?

 

[ihatework]

Hi Jo_
I'm sorry to hear about your horse, I'm going through the same with mine at the moment but thankfully he seems to have responded well to tildren.
You don't mention anything in your post about if he is being remedially shod - if so this is something you really must think about doing.
If he were mine then at this point in time I would be going down the injection route, the risk of infection isn't that high provided it is done well and the aftercare is good. See what happens after that, possibly turn him away for a while if needed but presumably you are on a timeframe with insurance? Also it might be worth thinking about a high grade joint suppliment like synequin.

I think your final options would then be bute (which I would do for my horse) or denerving (which I've ruled out for mine).

Hope things improve

 

[AmyMay]

Personally I'd give the horse a year off. You've nothing to loose by doing that, and you never know it could do the trick.

Difficult because the horse is so young, but I wouldn't be throwing any more money at it myself because you may well end up in exactly the same situation a year or two down the line.

 

[Doublethyme]

Couldn't agree more with Lynwood - barefoot may be dismissed by many, but you haven't got anything to lose now, except your horse

There really is so much evidence coming through now that barefoot methods can help these horses. The navicular horse Ghost on this website http://www.barefoothorses.co.uk/page21.html has recently had new x-rays done (see thread "navicular - new x-rays" under http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/forum2.php) and his bony changes have actually reversed!

Try barefoot with an EP or a UKNHCP trimmer, you really have nothing to lose. I personally use an EP for my mare and couldn't recommend these guys highly enough. Don't listen to the close minded, ill informed - get out there and investigate for yourself.

Steroid injections I would avoid personally. They sometimes give short term relief, but there is strong evidence that says for the medium/long term they accelerate changes to the bone.

 

[Gingernags]

I don't know how much of a change there was in our TB's bone as it was with a previous owner, but I do know (same vets) that it WAS diagnosed as navicular and she was "treated" - I'm assuming Navilox. She was also remedially shod in eggbars and eventually came sound.

We got her back as about a 12 year old (sold her at six, owner in the middle admits to "hammering" her about on hard ground) and she was in a bit of a mess, hadn't seen the farrier for months depsite the previous navicular. We got the farrier straight to her and put her back in egg bars.

At 17 now she's sound, only shod in front in normal shoes. She has had several periods of barefoot and been totally fine, can do some jumping but not much, and in the summer of 2005 did a 200 mile ride in 6 days on a lot of roads but also really demanding ground - and didn't take a lame step.

She has had time off to have a foal and while at stud - and these were barefoot - and she was totally fine like that. Its just ridden now she needs fronts on or she goes sore.

So there is hope, I'd keep my mind open to any route that you can look at be it Cytek or barefoot, but I'd go with the time off plus one of these - just investigate which you think will suit the horse best.

Good luck!

 

[lillie07]

Just to add, I know the most important thing is making your horse comfortable- I am going through the same thing- but I would try every Veterinary/ shoeing route available whilst still in the insurance time frame xx

 

[brightmount]

[ QUOTE ]
lynwood, what sort of cost is this treatment for navicular?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the delay in replying. Barefoot podiatry is usually cheaper than maintaining a horse in shoes. My 6-week trim is £45, and my farrier is more than that for my other horse who is shod (you might ask why is she shod - I admit for convenience and because she has no issues).

You may need a few initial appointments at closer intervals than 6 weeks, and you will need a set of hoof boots for conditioning and riding on rough ground, but over time you will be paying less or the same.

Just to add, I do also supplement with Pernamax and Cortaflex, which ease her arthritis.

Now is a good time to start barefoot, while the ground is still soft. A horse in transition may feel the effects of hard ground in mid-summer, but it's usually a temporary blip. Pernamax got my horse over that period.

 

[josephinebutter2]

Hi,

Thanks for all your responses.

He is currently having remedial shoeing - round shoes with wedges and sole pads for comfort.

He has been shod by a barefoot guy since he was 4 (before he had any lameness problems) - we tried him without shoes for 6 months and because of his foot conformation he became quite footsore, so he decided shoes were best for my boy, so the barefoot route is not an option.

He has been on 2 bute/day since Friday night and is still lame in the field today. Had a chat with the Vet again today and he said the steriod injection is not a cure - he would need it done every 6 months if it works to keep him sound and the bone would continue to degenerate.

I got the impression that he was trying to imply that I should think about having him PTS, without actually saying it.

I think I am just going to give him the summer in the field and if he is happy with remedial shoes and no medication, give him a year off and see where we are after that.

If he is still lame just mooching about the field, I think I may have to seriously consider having him PTS. I don't think it is fair to leave him in pain. I hate seeing horses hobling around the field, kept alive just because their owners don't want to lose them with no regard for the horses quality of life.

I know if he was in the wild today, he would not have been able to run away fast enough from a preditor, so would be gone already, so any chance I can give him is a bonus.

I'm all upset now!

 

[Doublethyme]

Oh blimey Jo, you have been through the wringer on this one haven't you. So sorry, sounds like you have tried loads, not to keep harking back to the barefoot route, but you say he was "shod" by a barefoot person? You mean a farrier who is interested in barefoot? If it really is last resort stuff, I really would recommend trying a KC La Pierre EP - they may well not be able to do or advise anything further, but these guys do concentrate just on barefeet and not shoes and do have a few extra tricks up their sleeves sometimes.

Good luck with whatever route you take and I hope things work out for you. I am with you on the not liking to see horses hobbling round fields, sometimes the worst option for us as owners, is the best route for the horses, but hope you don't have to go there.

 

[mrussell]

These didnt work for my fella either. I know its hard work but I would suggest trying every thing thats out there. My fella couldnt do barefoot as you have to be able to do the conditioning work and he is just to sore without shoes on. (Plus the xrays showed no real cushion between floor and pedal bone).

 

[brightmount]

[ QUOTE ]
My fella couldnt do barefoot as you have to be able to do the conditioning work and he is just to sore without shoes on. (Plus the xrays showed no real cushion between floor and pedal bone).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to push barefoot down anyone's throats as it's not the answer for every horse, but just to answer the point about soreness when the shoes first come off - this is inevitable which is why it's not just a question of taking the shoes off and carrying on as before.

The majority of cases start with deep pads (solemates) which you either gaffer-tape on to the soles, or put inside hoof boots. They support the sole in the early stages, exfoliate false sole, and stimulate growth. My poor cripple found immediate relief with solemates, and we got on brilliantly with Old Macs when we needed them in the early stages. She used to slip them on for the stony tracks to the fields, and for ridden work, with pads in, conditioning all the time.

I don't want to go off-topic though as the OP for various legitimate reasons can't do barefoot, this is just to stress that there is a way of getting round initial soreness, and this is part of an EP-based conditioning programme.

 

[mrussell]

Im sure that one day I will be able to take the plunge as the cyteks have stimulated his soles and he can now stand without a shoe on while being "shod".

Even burning his shoes on when being shod would have caused intolerable pain for him.

He is fine in Old macs if we loose a shoe (he cant even cope for a few days without a shoe on if the farrier cant come back immediately) but after a few days his heels get sore.

I have one barefooter who struggles along (she is retired but in the wet her feet get soft and she is sore on concrete, and in the summer she struggles on the rutted paddocks).

I think its horses for courses and its up to us humans to try anything we can.

Im just so glad I have been open minded enough to try something that the vet frowned upon !

 

[Bosworth]

I would think very carefully about the steroid injection 6 years ago one of my horses started to show signs of navicular - he vet he went to decided it was coffin joints as he could see no change in the bones around the navicular bursa. so he injected a steroid into teh coffin joint on both fronts. ^ weeks later still lame - so injected again - then 6 months later still not sound so injucted again - by the time they came to inject for the 3rd time the build up of scar tissue caused by eth stroid was so great they couldn't get into the coffin joint so they decided to inject into the navicluar bursa. the result, I have a horse that is now permenantly unsound because there is such a build up of scar tissue he can never go sound again. The scar tissue was caused by the steroid and no one has ever proved that there are actually bony changes in the navicular area. I have had Scintigraphy, ultrascan, xrays etc but no definitive answer

I have tried him bareoot on all four but have found that he cannot cope in front. He is now barefoot behind and shod in front with wide webs, Egg bars made him worse as did pads. his hoof conformation was very good. A nice short toe and a decent heel. We have found by trial and error that he actually prefers to keep shoes on for about 14 weeks rather than 7, his feet left longer are more comfortable than when short. The shoe lifts the sole and by leaving the foot longer he can grow it to accomodate his vet induced gait.

I have him sound now on Danilon, one sachet a day when teh ground is hard, nothing when the ground is soft. If I hunt him I give him one sachet for the two days prior, 2 sachets for the hunting day and the day afterwards, after that nothing. He has stayed comfortable and raring to go on this now for about 2 years.

Sorry that is bit doom and gloom but I would never have put him through the pain of the intercostal injections and teh months of box rest if I had known about the possibility of scar tissue builf up from the steroids. I would have given him 12 months off in a field and reassessed at a later stage.

 

[josephinebutter2]

Thanks for this bosworth.

I have decided def. just give him some time off and see what happens. I just don't think I can put him through any more treatments and box rest. He did not cope very well mentally and it did him no good physically either. He is more lame now than when we started all this!

He is in the field next to his buddies now and they were all so pleased to see him - and will be back out with them properly at the weekend. It will be nice to see him just be a horse again!