New part-loaner - advice needed

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Horsegirl94

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Hi,

I recently got back into riding after years off, I had been taking weekly private lessons weekly and then a part-loan came up nearby a couple of weeks back. I went to visit and decided to go for it, it made morse sense cost wise and gives me more hands on time with a horse.
I only properly started loaning the horse last week, I haven't rode him yet, I have just been doing lungeing with him to get him back into things on the owners request. Today she has contacted me and let me know he has laminitis so will be on 24/7 box rest until he is better. I don't know much about the condition but from what I have read it can take a long while for a horse to recover.

I have asked her what that means in term of my loan, she said I still need to go down on my loan days for everyday care but I obviously can't exercise him. I'm not sure what to do from here... Should I still be paying £30 a week to groom and feed a horse? What would be the best way to approach this?
 
If you pay the £30 for this week I think that would be all that is required; in the absence of a contract you only really have your own conscience to satisfy and I don't think too many people would argue that after a single week and a few lunging sessions that you owe this person very much.

If you had been loaning for even a month, it might be different.
 
smolmaus said:
If you pay the £30 for this week I think that would be all that is required; in the absence of a contract you only really have your own conscience to satisfy and I don't think too many people would argue that after a single week and a few lunging sessions that you owe this person very much.

If you had been loaning for even a month, it might be different.
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I do a Sat, Sun & Mon and paid for the week just gone. That was my first week, do you think I should pay for this week too? I was due to ride him this weekend but won't be able to now so will need to continue paying for my private lessons. It's just I'm essentially paying £30 to go and muck out.
 
OK........ so the owner "told you to lunge him"; and now he's gone down with laminitis. Which makes me suspect that the horse had been out of work for a while; and the possible reason for that might well have been a previous laminitic episode...........

Sorry lovely, but this just doesn't add up. Any owner with a laminitic-prone horse (like a good doer) shouldn't be caught out by surprise by a lami outbreak, not if you're watching & taking heed of the horse's condition on a regular basis. It doesn't just "happen", not if you're vigilant. Not unless you've been galloping it on hard ground and it goes down with "concussion laminitis", which is a possibility with the concrete ground we've got at the moment. Or it decides to hoon around the field like an idiot and does it to itself, which admittedly might be the case here, let's be generous. But basically grass-induced laminitis should not catch an owner by surprise! I've got one which is a good-doer and would be prone to it, and of which I'm aware, and I watch her like a perishing hawk, all the time!! And as a YO I've had to tell a livery that their veteran horse was at risk from it and was possibly showing early indications of it; later confirmed by the farrier (all was well and the horse went on to enjoy a good more few years). And re. the lunging: well sorry but lunging isn't ever gonna be an easy type of exercise for any horse which is unfit or been out of work for a while, as going on a tight circle is not a natural movement for them particularly if they are stiff from lack of work & not able to flex to the circle, and particularly a laminitic-prone one - it is the very last type of exercise I would do for anything remotely prone to laminitis tbh.

I do not see that you have any obligations here: personally I would counsel you to walk away from this. Yes it CAN and does take a good while for them to recover from laminitis and hopefully the owner will have involved her vet & farrier as the best outcomes are where both professionals are involved and are working together; and also where the owner has changed the dietary & general management regime sufficiently to enable a good outcome, and also to prevent a recurrence.

But you should feel no guilt about walking away from this! Bleddi cheek, for her to think that she has the right to dictate to you that you should be paying for a horse you cannot ride!!

I would cancel your direct debit, say goodbye, and walk away. On the odd chance you are in Devon, please PM me!!

(Edited: I see that the owner did NOT mention anything about laminitis before you took on the loan. Whilst this may, as I say, be "concussion" laminitis, it is very possible that it has occurred before, and if so the owner should have told you about it. Like I say, you would be best advised to walk away from this).
 
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You say you have just been lunging him 'to get him back into things', so presumably he wasn't in ridden work before you started the loan?
And if not, I wonder why not?

The whole arrangement doesn't sound as if you are going to get much out of it for some time, given that recovery from laminitis is by no means guaranteed and even if good can take a while
And paying the owner to muck him out is a bit much!
 
No!

Expecting you to pay for a horse you cant ride is taking the mick.

Walk away. They are taking advantage of you.

A reasonable person would tell you to go back to your lessons, but feel free to nip in a few times a week to give him a groom and get to know him.

Then once he is back in work, money can be considered again.

Jokers they are.
 
Horsegirl94 said:
I do a Sat, Sun & Mon and paid for the week just gone. That was my first week, do you think I should pay for this week too? I was due to ride him this weekend but won't be able to now so will need to continue paying for my private lessons. It's just I'm essentially paying £30 to go and muck out.
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No, I personally don't think it's reasonable to expect you to do that.

They might be annoyed at you so probably prepare yourself for that, and once the horse is sound she will likely not agree to re-starting the loan with you, but it is what it is. Paying to muck out a horse you have very little connection with and who may actually never come sound, is silly.
 
I wouldn't be expecting you to pay. Sharing/part-loaning is different to a full loan in that the main care-giving still remains with the owner and the sharer gives a financial contribution for the days they ride (unless it's a special arrangement). If you're still happy to see the horse and just get some horsey time/refresh your husbandry, then by all means visit on your pre-agreed days, but I certainly wouldn't pay for it. Whether you still go up is up to you - so early on in the arrangement you probably haven't bonded much with the horse.

ETA:cross-posed with Amymay, but we're clearly in agreement!
 
The best possible scenario, being as generous as possible to the owner, is that at the start she wanted you to get to know the horse and he has unexpectedly come down with laminitis, which now prevents you from riding him. As an owner (and I have sharers for a couple of mine) at this point I would say please stop paying me and doing jobs, but also feel free to pop in and see him, and if you want, start up again when he is comfortable to be ridden.

Sadly I agree with others that she isn't being fair to you: she has prioritized the jobs and money over your side of the bargain, which is having a horse to ride. With my long term sharer (and I have had her for more than 10 years) I think she would continue to pay (really a very small amount) if the horse was out of action for a bit - because she's part of the yard family, loves him as her own, and appreciates that they aren't machines and have some down time. But you are very new to him and this is an unreasonable expectation.

We see a number of threads on here about unreasonable share expectations, and sadly you have been caught in this trap, so walk away, carry on your lessons and keep looking. There are good shares out there. A FB post or asking in your local tack shops is a good way to find them.
 
cauda equina said:
You say you have just been lunging him 'to get him back into things', so presumably he wasn't in ridden work before you started the loan?
And if not, I wonder why not?

The whole arrangement doesn't sound as if you are going to get much out of it for some time, given that recovery from laminitis is by no means guaranteed and even if good can take a while
And paying the owner to muck him out is a bit much!
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His owner is unable to ride her horses due to arthritis. She told me the previous girl who was part loaning and riding him moved out of the area in May so I don't think he has been exercised properly for a few months.
 
I’m another that would’ve offered a loaner their loan days to learn horse care etc and have a cuddle but in no way would there be any expectation to pay for that.

The lunging is a bit of an odd one too. I might’ve wanted to be there the first few times you rode to see how you were getting on with each other but “lunging to get back into things” sounds a bit suspect. I think walking away might be the best option.

ETA just seen your post above about the horse being out of work. Still think they are taking advantage by asking you to pay for a horse on box rest.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
OK........ so the owner "told you to lunge him"; and now he's gone down with laminitis. Which makes me suspect that the horse had been out of work for a while; and the possible reason for that might well have been a previous laminitic episode...........

Sorry lovely, but this just doesn't add up. Any owner with a laminitic-prone horse (like a good doer) shouldn't be caught out by surprise by a lami outbreak, not if you're watching & taking heed of the horse's condition on a regular basis. It doesn't just "happen", not if you're vigilant. Not unless you've been galloping it on hard ground and it goes down with "concussion laminitis", which is a possibility with the concrete ground we've got at the moment. Or it decides to hoon around the field like an idiot and does it to itself, which admittedly might be the case here, let's be generous. But basically grass-induced laminitis should not catch an owner by surprise! I've got one which is a good-doer and would be prone to it, and of which I'm aware, and I watch her like a perishing hawk, all the time!! And as a YO I've had to tell a livery that their veteran horse was at risk from it and was possibly showing early indications of it; later confirmed by the farrier (all was well and the horse went on to enjoy a good more few years). And re. the lunging: well sorry but lunging isn't ever gonna be an easy type of exercise for any horse which is unfit or been out of work for a while, as going on a tight circle is not a natural movement for them particularly if they are stiff from lack of work & not able to flex to the circle, and particularly a laminitic-prone one - it is the very last type of exercise I would do for anything remotely prone to laminitis tbh.

I do not see that you have any obligations here: personally I would counsel you to walk away from this. Yes it CAN and does take a good while for them to recover from laminitis and hopefully the owner will have involved her vet & farrier as the best outcomes are where both professionals are involved and are working together; and also where the owner has changed the dietary & general management regime sufficiently to enable a good outcome, and also to prevent a recurrence.

But you should feel no guilt about walking away from this! Bleddi cheek, for her to think that she has the right to dictate to you that you should be paying for a horse you cannot ride!!

I would cancel your direct debit, say goodbye, and walk away. On the odd chance you are in Devon, please PM me!!

(Edited: I see that the owner did NOT mention anything about laminitis before you took on the loan. Whilst this may, as I say, be "concussion" laminitis, it is very possible that it has occurred before, and if so the owner should have told you about it. Like I say, you would be best advised to walk away from this).
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Thank you for your advice, it's really appreciated, unfortunately I'm in Manchester so a bit of a commute away from Devon!

I am wondering whether it could have been the case that he was prone to this condition and I've just not been told. He is on the fatter side, I really struggled getting his girth on him, but put this down to that he's not had much exercise without anyone to ride him.

I think you are right re walking away, I'm just glad I've not yet got a strong bond with the horse otherwise I would find this situation a lot more difficult.
 
I think if this had been a long term arrangement whereby you had regular use of the horse etc, and they had an unforeseen accident/illness that meant a temporary time of non riding, then yes I would still expect you to pay and do your days. That part and parcel of horse care.

BUT - that’s not the case here as a) you haven’t even been able to ride the horse, I would question what purpose the lunging had! and b) the owner has clearly withheld the laminitis info from you.

Something smells off, I’d just end the loan and find another.
 
Horsegirl94 said:
His owner is unable to ride her horses due to arthritis. She told me the previous girl who was part loaning and riding him moved out of the area in May so I don't think he has been exercised properly for a few months.
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It might all be fine and perfectly above board but if he's only been out of work since May so 3 months or so I wonder why he needs lunging?
Of course there might be some perfectly good reason, but I would expect a healthy sensible horse to manage a short potter about under saddle after 3 months off
Have you seen him being ridden?
Sorry if this feels like a grilling but the whole thing seems off to me
 
I explained about not wanting to pay whilst he is unable to be ridden and she has replied “The rent will still need to be paid. Unfortunately we have to take bad days as well as good with horses as things always happen”
 
Horsegirl94 said:
I explained about not wanting to pay whilst he is unable to be ridden and she has replied “The rent will still need to be paid. Unfortunately we have to take bad days as well as good with horses as things always happen”
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Yeah, she has to do that. You don't.
cauda equina said:
the whole thing seems off to me
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Yep
 
Horsegirl94 said:
I explained about not wanting to pay whilst he is unable to be ridden and she has replied “The rent will still need to be paid. Unfortunately we have to take bad days as well as good with horses as things always happen”
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Those are the owners problems not yours. At the most pay for this week as your weeks notice for terminating the share.
 
cauda equina said:
It might all be fine and perfectly above board but if he's only been out of work since May so 3 months or so I wonder why he needs lunging?
Of course there might be some perfectly good reason, but I would expect a healthy sensible horse to manage a short potter about under saddle after 3 months off
Have you seen him being ridden?
Sorry if this feels like a grilling but the whole thing seems off to me
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No it’s not a grilling, I’m very much a beginner so this is a learning curve for me, thank you.
I’ve seen videos of him being ridden but not seen anyone ride him in person, i was supposed to this weekend before he became sick. I know a girl from the yard rode him to prom a couple of weeks ago but that was probably more sitting on his back for pics as I’m assuming one can’t ride very well in a prom gown
 
Horsegirl94 said:
I explained about not wanting to pay whilst he is unable to be ridden and she has replied “The rent will still need to be paid. Unfortunately we have to take bad days as well as good with horses as things always happen”
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Yeah this is why people share rather than buy, you have a bit of a buffer against these things.

Of course these things happen/horses are sometimes lame but it’s different if you’ve been in a long term situation with them and their owners than brand new, any owner you’d want to be involved with would be very grateful for the help if you did want to still come do any chores, they would not expect you to pay .

So at this point I’d pull out as it’s not the sort of owner that I’d want to have in the long term.
 
Horsegirl94 said:
She’s told me he will be recovered in two weeks🤔 like I said I don’t know much about laminitis but a quick google search tells me otherwise…
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Ok, the way they get it and present can be different depending on the horse. Some will get an acute attack, in which case it’s quite intensive management and can take quite a long time to get them right. In this type of circumstance then actually any knowledgable owner probably wouldn’t want to leave the care to a novice sharer (no offence meant).

Or what you sometimes have, is a horse that has this sort of chronic grumbling laminitis that comes and goes. So given the owner seems pretty unconcerned I suspect it’s this. The horse may come visually sound enough to ride in a fortnight but the likelihood is that they will be a bit on/off most of the time unless the underlying cause is found, treated and management upped.

Id just cancel the share. I suspect the owner will be rude about it, but that’s on them, not you. I wouldn’t expect to get any money back though I’m afraid.
 
Laminitis is often a life long condition that can be managed but you're never really totally free of.

The owner isn't being that nice / reasonable IMHO

I would reply back with something bland that just says you'd like to end the loan - and leave it there. She may get cross but I don't think you are at fault here.
 
Horsegirl94 said:
I explained about not wanting to pay whilst he is unable to be ridden and she has replied “The rent will still need to be paid. Unfortunately we have to take bad days as well as good with horses as things always happen”
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Yep, that's what a horse owner has to do. As a sharer / part-loaner, you're free to walk away, especially as their hasn't been any "good days" yet.

As a horse owner who has shared in the past, if my horse went lame for an indefinite amount of time, I would ask the sharer to stop paying me, say I would be extremely grateful for any help they're willing to offer during the time the horse is off games, but wouldn't insist on it.

When I shared (and paid - haven't done that for a long time!), I paid monthly and the deal was that is horse was off games for less than 2 - 3 weeks, I sucked it up and paid, if she was off for over a month, I didn't. I also agreed not to pay with the owner during the summer months as I was back home from uni, so not around for 3 months-ish.
 
ihatework said:
Ok, the way they get it and present can be different depending on the horse. Some will get an acute attack, in which case it’s quite intensive management and can take quite a long time to get them right. In this type of circumstance then actually any knowledgable owner probably wouldn’t want to leave the care to a novice sharer (no offence meant).

Or what you sometimes have, is a horse that has this sort of chronic grumbling laminitis that comes and goes. So given the owner seems pretty unconcerned I suspect it’s this. The horse may come visually sound enough to ride in a fortnight but the likelihood is that they will be a bit on/off most of the time unless the underlying cause is found, treated and management upped.

Id just cancel the share. I suspect the owner will be rude about it, but that’s on them, not you. I wouldn’t expect to get any money back though I’m afraid.
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No offence taken, I've been very open that I am a novice and I don't think it's fair on the horse if he needs someone who has more knowledge than me to be able to look out for these things and know how to take care of them.

She's now said there's no need to pay her for 2 weeks and she promises he will be "fighting fit" by then, it's coming across a bit desperate. I don't want to ride a horse who needs more time to recover, it's making me wonder how well cared for her horses actually are.
 
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