New vet whose advice to all owners seems to be "PTS"

Z

zoeshiloh

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 January 2006
Messages
2,771
Location
Suffolk
www.stowmarketanddistrictridingclub.com
There is a new vet at the local practise. He is from another EU country, and did his training/qualifications in that country (BTW this is a western EU country and not debating his qualifications). I just wonder if the attitude of vets abroad is a bit harsher, and they simply do not understand British sentimentality?

Anyway, I was a bit upset as recently my mare had an attack of blood-poisoning induced laminitis. It was bad, but he instantly advised having her PTS before he even examined her. Yes, she was in a bad way (pain related) but to say that before even looking at her upset me. Well, I asked him to make her comfortable for 24 hours so that I could make an informed decision, and ten weeks later, she is still with us and improving daily (a different vet saw her the next day and advised us to give her a chance)

Since that incident, I have heard of the same vet recommending to lots of horse owners to have their equines PTS - normally this is related to a long term illness, eg, cushings, arthritis, laminitis etc - things that can get better/be stabalised, but will always need to be monitored. Now, is this just 'his way' - ie, does he say this because he does not act on or understand the sentiment people posess for these horses, or does he genuinely think keeping a horse/pony in ongoing pain is not right (even if pain etc is managed?).

I have always trusted my vets judgement (this vet came out in an emergency to me as my vet was not on call) and wonder how many people think this vet is advising PTS as the only option, and therefore blindly following the advice? I have mentioned my concerns to the practise, but was told he is a very good vet (he is, he knows his stuff and has treated numerous other complaints/friends horses for things which he did not consider life changing). How would others deal with this vet? I don't want to report him to anyone as a) he is doing nothing wrong and b) he is good at treating the horses - it is just his initial "no hope, PTS" that worries me, whereas other vets will give you hope, he almost takes it away entirely.
 
I have one of these here, he is an ignorant s*** and apart from that he is a crap horse vet, needless to say he does not come to my yard anymore!!

I think some vets definately need to learn some bedside manners!
 
I think there needs to be a happy medium. In the last few years I have noticed so many "newer" vets being loathe to tell it how it is. Maybe it's a fear of being sued, I don't know. For example, some years ago a friend of mine had a very old horse (mid 20s) colicking. Vet came out, examined, jabbed, advised to monitor. Some hours later, horse was deteriorating, same vet returned and suggested that to have any hope of saving the old boy, he needed to go to surgery. Poor horse was transported to surgery, some 40 minutes away. He came out of the lorry bright as a button, looking around, and walked into the crush. Whereupon he collapsed. Older vet promptly said, "That's a dead horse, or he will be very shortly!" (fortunately my friend wasn't there at that point!), and the old boy was put down there and then. It was explained that if a torsion ruptures, as it obviously had en route, the horse feels fantastic as all the pain goes away instantly. Then shock and septicaemia sets in just as quickly, and the horse dies. My point is, he should never have been taken out of the field. My older vet would have very gently pointed out that he was a good age, GA and surgery would be high risk, and cause high distress with no guarantee of success, and that he should be put down straight away. Ultimately, my poor friend was given what I saw as unnecessary hope, the old boy was transported when he should not have been, and the whole thing was doubly traumatic, all because a young vet didn't have the guts to say "That's it". I know more recently qualified vets are often more up to date with cutting edge diagnostics, but sometimes they need to appreciate that it is not always possible or wise to use them, either due to individual humane needs, or, yes, even finances. Older vets quite often have a good dollop of common sense and old fashioned horseman's nous in with their qualifications. Maybe the Eurovets are more used to the brutal truth?
 
I would ask for your normal vet each time and ONLY in a real emergency have the new vet.

If you have to have the new vet I would say that could he treat and you will be getting your normal vet out as soon as they are on duty again.

I think it is very harsh that this vet is recommending this final thing (PTS) before knowing the full story.

The only time I would allow an emergency vet to put any of my horses down would be if they had a very bad break of the back or neck or if they had done everything if the horse had colic.

Earlier this year my 21 year old New Forest mare was very ill with toxic poisoning and my vet advised we have her PTS. We gave her some treatment and she is still here today.
 
Unless a critical emergency I would never accept a recommendation of PTS without a second opinion, unless of course the vet has being treating a horse he knows for a long while.

Maybe this vet is not used to the sentiment we attach to our animals and thats fine but its also fine for you to chose someone else more in tune with your own ethos of animal husbandry.
 
Unfortunately in a practice situation it is very difficult to admit the deficiencies of a colleague. However I would suspect that once this vet has left the practice that his colleagues would probably not be so complimentary of him.
Having said that this vet sounds as if he will not do the practices reputation much good and probably everyone will be relieved when he departs!
 
If the vet is used to treating meat horses it would be expected that his advice would be partly for your financial benefit rather than the horse's health/his pocket! I wouldn't do anything in particular but if asked for a vet recommendation/as these things come up in convo no harm stating your opinion. Vets, like other professionals, do build reputations and as long as they are based on facts it can be a useful way of deciding which one(s) to consult about particular conditions.
 
Tricky one.

I have to say a vet that says, "just give up now before you waste loads of money and the outcome will likely be the same" sounds like a breath of fresh air nowadays with so many vets determined to treat every lost cause.

However, when there is a genuine decent chance of a full recovery you want telling about it and the opportunity to try if that chance is there.

I think I would speak to one of the senior vets and just stress when any of their vets treat your horses you just want an honest list of all your options. Also maybe state your concerns that this new vet might be swaying inexperienced owners to PTS when there are other options?
 
Groom42 said:
I know more recently qualified vets are often more up to date with cutting edge diagnostics, but sometimes they need to appreciate that it is not always possible or wise to use them, either due to individual humane needs, or, yes, even finances. Older vets quite often have a good dollop of common sense and old fashioned horseman's nous in with their qualifications. Maybe the Eurovets are more used to the brutal truth?
Click to expand...

My parents have this all the time with the small animal vets. The newer qualified ones want to do this test and that scan and then operate.. on teenage dogs and cats. My parents decline and go back for a second opinion and get an older vet, who inevitably says he wouldn't recommend surgery and that at the animal's age its unfair and not very useful to test them for this that and the other, and he simply treats the symptoms to make the elderly animal comfortable.
 
We once had a spanish origin locum vet to see two horses neither of them mine but in our care. One had puss in the foot and he cut it back very very harshly (more than I have seen in any other case and it was not a particularly bad case. but better to be safe than sorry! but muttered it will reoccur and be good for nothing) anyways second horse very underweight and we said to vet we had food, grass, hay and time to spare how would he recommend building her up. Answer...put to sleep. why?.... cost too much in food and time to bring her right! no no thats our decission yours is to tell us how or if it is not posssible. (horse made full recovery)
Same vet friends horse had splint??? bone (one in the lower leg that goes nowhere) removed from back leg two years previously and had healed and was doing flat work, vet came out for vaccination asked for history and said this horse should be put down not good for anything.(now does very nice dressage and hacking)
We got fed up of being told our horses should be put down so requested not to have him ever! But he was very utilitarian so don't know if it is a continent thing.
 
I know a very good vet who some people call "The shooting vet", I know her & 100% trust her judgement but sometimes she tells people what they don't want to hear, some people don't want an honest opinion but want to be given false hope (& maybe the vet puts money above welfare).
But it does sound like this guy is a bit trigger happy, I wouldn't want to deal with him as if he recommended putting my horse down I wouldn't know if I could trust him or not. He probably is a good vet but it does sound like his judgement isn't the best.
 
Flame_ said:
Tricky one.

I have to say a vet that says, "just give up now before you waste loads of money and the outcome will likely be the same" sounds like a breath of fresh air nowadays with so many vets determined to treat every lost cause.

However, when there is a genuine decent chance of a full recovery you want telling about it and the opportunity to try if that chance is there.

I think I would speak to one of the senior vets and just stress when any of their vets treat your horses you just want an honest list of all your options. Also maybe state your concerns that this new vet might be swaying inexperienced owners to PTS when there are other options?
Click to expand...


It must be a Cheshire thing, my views exactly!;)
Luckily, my vet is very much on my wavelength, if he wasn't, I'd change and he tells it like it is, no pussy footing about. I do not want someone to say try this, try that just for their experience when the outcome will be the same for me, no horse and a fistful of bills. If that means jumping (and using) the gun too early, so be it; I'm prepared for that unlike so many that I read about on here. I'm not saying they're wrong, of course not, we just have different viewpoints and values and what suits them won't suit me and vice versa; there's room for everyone, nothing's black or white.
I'm very sorry for those that have their hopes raised by vets that are just adding up their invoices rather than being honest, both to the owner and the horse.
 
I think far too many animals are kept alive for far too long for the sake of the owner if I'm honest.

It's up to people what they spend their money on, and it's easy to be hard hearted when it's not your horse. I do think though that people sometimes need the vet to advise animals be PTS and vets don't seem to want to - if there is a course of treatment which will keep the animal alive.

I would always rather make the decision a bit too soon than a bit too late. I know too many animals who are in continual pain, in some cases (especially dogs) they have been kept alive for years when they shouldn't have been. Maybe vets are a bit too timid about speaking up these days.
 
I totally agree with the 'better too soon than too late mentality', however if the vet is suggesting pts as the only option for perfectly treatable cases then I'd be deeply unimpressed.
 
My old vet was brilliant, very straight forward and honest with me as he knew thats what I wanted. He is often more 'fluffy' with those that don't want to hear the truth. Sadly he is the only vet I trust at that practice and after getting a 'doggy vet' (no offence to small animal vets) sent out once to often I changed to another practice. All the partners / staff at this practice are direct and to the point. A friend sadly lost her horse to colic and as the vet told her there was no hope she was screaming at him to refer her to Newmarket (2hrs drive away) which he obviously refused. If I need them (which having a tb is quite often) I always ask what they would do if it was their horse if they give me a choice of treatment / aftercare.
 
We've recently had the opposite situation where the horse was kept hanging on for a month (ok, not in pain but was obviously not going to recover) and vet was like 'let's just try this, let's try that'. The poor horse had the sword of damocles hanging over it, and the owner was a nervous wreck looking for even tiny signs of improvement. In the end the horse was PTS anyway, but not before the owner had shelled out probably the better part of £1500 in bills for a horse that any objective person could see was never going to get better.
I would like to think that my vet wouldn't want to put either me or my horse through that kind of experience and would gently guide me down the PTS route right from the start.
 
I think there are cultural differences and the UK is definitely on the "at all costs" end of the spectrum, both in terms of saving the horse and in expecting a completely successful outcome rather than an ongoing management situation. I suspect insurance practices have something to do with these expectations, although that's another discussion. The standard of "usefulness" is probably a more common consideration in other parts of the world, both where financial considerations may be more relevant and where horses are generally regarded less as pets and more as working animals.

So the vet may merely be reflecting the cultural bias of his training and previous practice, rather than being deliberately "cruel".

That said, he practices here now and if he's making customers uncomfortable then the practice needs to know from a purely business perspective. It's worth a call to the senior partner and a calm discussion about how he might be coming across.
 
Steorra said:
I totally agree with the 'better too soon than too late mentality', however if the vet is suggesting pts as the only option for perfectly treatable cases then I'd be deeply unimpressed.
Click to expand...

I think that goes without saying.

A while ago, a horse with colic was referred to vet hospital; an hour's drive away. They dropped the ramp to a dead horse. That horse should never have travelled or been put through that trauma; it must have been in agony. So very unfair to it but the owner was insisting it went, their vet wanted to PTS there and then. Personally, I hope that owner has nightmares for a while to come; they were the sole reason it happened like that simply because they couldn't face up to reality.
Sometimes, there's nothing you can do and you have to accept it, for your horse's sake. The trouble is, with so many novice horse owners about now, they're not experienced enough to know what should be the right thing, that's when they need a decent honest vet to tell it like it is.
 
Flame_ said:
Tricky one.

I have to say a vet that says, "just give up now before you waste loads of money and the outcome will likely be the same" sounds like a breath of fresh air nowadays with so many vets determined to treat every lost cause.
Click to expand...

yeah that^^

the bit that gets me is when they say.... "are you insured....".....

nowadays i accept what the vet has to tell me and make my own informed choice. horse always comes first.

eta - i prefer the vets who tell me like it is and i do not appreciate the vets who beat around the bush and get farr too attached to my horse. been there. never again
 
i had to change practice because the vets in the old practice just didn't seem to communicate, one was always pts before trying anything at all and the other one wanted to do this and that at a very big expense. the practice are well known and alot of people use them but i've had too many bad incidents with them to ever go back.

i'm now with a practice that i'm not keen on but the vet i use is fantastic, he tells me like it is, he doesn't say oh we can go down this route etc etc.
he says the age my horse is and with his history and ailments it's not worth putting him through stupid tests so we will treat whatever we think it is as a worst case, (does that make sense??).
he has never got my hopes up but at the same time he's never said oh lets just pts. he listens to what is being told to him and he works with the horse and the owner.
 
i dont' believe keeping an animal in ongoing pain is right and this vet is entitled to thing that. so long as he also gives other options he is not doing anything wrong, allt he conditions you are commenting on sound like they could have valid reasons for pts so i wouldn't be castigating him yet..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top