Newly barefoot hooves, opinions please!

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Drayton

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Hi guys,

Would love some opinions on these hooves. The horse has now been barefoot for 2.5 weeks and is sound in all paces with hoof boots and pads in front and walk and trot in the sand/carpet school and grass schooling paddock bare (not tried canter yet). He is ok on concrete, a bit cautious. Very cautious on the rough hardcored track that has plenty of sharp stones but he doesn't really gimp on them when he treads on them, just goes very steady.

I am battling with the central sulcus thrush and it doesn't seem to be closing despite daily sole and field paste. His diet is speedi beet, linseed, salt, yeasacc and forage plus winter balancer plus ad lib forage. He is stabled over night and turned out on a hill with one other horse during the day. Currently in about half an hour of work a day.

My farrier was conservative in trimming him post shoe removal and I'm thinking he will be due a little trim soon looking at the hooves? The hooves broke right up to the nail holes behind but not in front, so his feet seem to have grown pretty fast (I assume due to the stress on them from post removal). I think the original hoof photos I must have taken at a really awful angle as his hind feet look no where near as bad now but I don't think that could have happened so quick! Also I can account for all of the event lines you can see in his fronts.

Any opinions greatly received and where to go from here re trim and thrush.

Feet post shoe removal 2.5 weeks ago

FRONTS





HINDS





TODAY FRONTS









HINDS






 
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Personally, I wouldn't be so eager to trim at this point. I don't think there's that much at all to remove, if he is already uncomfortable it is best to leave a little for him to wear with walking.

Rome wasn't built in a day, keep doing what you're doing and they will get there. Has your farrier trimmed the frogs? It looks like they may have done, it can contribute to soreness.
 
For a shod horse, NICE frogs (overtrimmed and a little deep, but not shriveled and black and pressed together at the back) and a very nice set-up trim- they left him some wall which is good for early days.

It will be harder to see changes this late into the season because hoof growth slows down, so keep his exercise at current levels with as much turnout as you can. (I transitioned my horse on 12 hr turnout, but was shocked when I chucked her in our field at home 24/7... her frog/heels widened another centimeter and the thrush disappeared.) As much you can do in straight lines and LOOSE curves, do. In that smushed/broken-back hoof particularly, his collateral cartilages will shift and back out of the hoof capsule. Those are their lateral stabilizers and this process can make them particularly tender on circles for a while. (I trotted straightaways and walked the curve for 4-5 weeks on mine, but she also had a bit of soft tissue inflammation which complicated things)

Don't worry- the nail holes are where he's most likely to chip, and chips and small cracks worry us more than they bother the horse. I would leave the frog alone as much as possible, only trimming flappy bits as they hold thrush but you want a nice callus to develop! Just keep rolling the toe back and that will help prevent cracking there as long as he's landing heel-first. Shoulder stretches helped my horse a lot too- as many times a day as you can.
 
his feet look good! my one concern is that they are broken back - meaning the angle through the pastern doesnt match the angle of the hoof wall at the toe. This means the heels and tow are too far forward and not supporting the limb.

very easy to fix / grow down with the right hoof care
 
Just keep doing what you're doing. 2.5 weeks is no time at all. Give it chance! I can't see the sole pics but I personally wouldn't trim at all now for weeks, possibly months in the winter.
 
samlf said:
Personally, I wouldn't be so eager to trim at this point. I don't think there's that much at all to remove, if he is already uncomfortable it is best to leave a little for him to wear with walking.

Rome wasn't built in a day, keep doing what you're doing and they will get there. Has your farrier trimmed the frogs? It looks like they may have done, it can contribute to soreness.
Click to expand...

Thanks x
ohmissbrittany said:
For a shod horse, NICE frogs (overtrimmed and a little deep, but not shriveled and black and pressed together at the back) and a very nice set-up trim- they left him some wall which is good for early days.

It will be harder to see changes this late into the season because hoof growth slows down, so keep his exercise at current levels with as much turnout as you can. (I transitioned my horse on 12 hr turnout, but was shocked when I chucked her in our field at home 24/7... her frog/heels widened another centimeter and the thrush disappeared.) As much you can do in straight lines and LOOSE curves, do. In that smushed/broken-back hoof particularly, his collateral cartilages will shift and back out of the hoof capsule. Those are their lateral stabilizers and this process can make them particularly tender on circles for a while. (I trotted straightaways and walked the curve for 4-5 weeks on mine, but she also had a bit of soft tissue inflammation which complicated things)

Don't worry- the nail holes are where he's most likely to chip, and chips and small cracks worry us more than they bother the horse. I would leave the frog alone as much as possible, only trimming flappy bits as they hold thrush but you want a nice callus to develop! Just keep rolling the toe back and that will help prevent cracking there as long as he's landing heel-first. Shoulder stretches helped my horse a lot too- as many times a day as you can.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the advice :)
Thorwood said:
his feet look good! my one concern is that they are broken back - meaning the angle through the pastern doesnt match the angle of the hoof wall at the toe. This means the heels and tow are too far forward and not supporting the limb.

very easy to fix / grow down with the right hoof care
Click to expand...

Thank you. I've been a total stresshead about his feet and thought they were awful etc, convinced he was going to end up with navicular!
wild at hoof said:
the central sulcus that you mention - is it the hoof that you have a sole picture of?
Click to expand...

Yes the darker one. Doesn't photograph well but it's really deep, can get half my hoof pick in there.
PoppyAnderson said:
Just keep doing what you're doing. 2.5 weeks is no time at all. Give it chance! I can't see the sole pics but I personally wouldn't trim at all now for weeks, possibly months in the winter.
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Noted!
PoppyAnderson said:
I can see the sole pics now. Don't let anyone touch the frogs, not even to cut jaggy bits off. Leave them well alone!
Click to expand...
 
The best think I have found for central sulcus infections is red horse hoof stuff. You pack it in in layers and it stays out and the extra pressure seems to stimulate the growth. Honestly I've used it in some horses once and when I've gone back 6 weeks later it's grown out! Crazy! I have no idea how or why it works that way.

On the topic of trimming frogs. It's an odd one. I will admit I trim frogs, especially when they are thrushy ... especially to remove the raggedy bits which are great hiding places for thrush and hard to get to to clean. I also trim hypertrophied frogs (tends to be on cobs that just grow and grow!) but as a general rule I do as little as possible. Just wanted to point out it's not all wrong to trim the frog ... some times it needs a bit of help and unless horse is out walking in different surfaces for several hours a day the frog will probably need it :)

Hope that helps

Oh and also you can drop tea tree oil into nail holes to prevent bacteria ... that's what I always suggest to clients
 
WaH, can you describe for us when you would trim a healthy but hypertrophied frog? The only stuff I can find about hypertrophy relates to canker, which is a foul disease. What signs are there that a frog needs to be trimmed back even though it is healthy? I've always subscribed to the 'don't touch a healthy frog' model but I'm open to having my mind changed.
 
When trimming you balance to landmarks. Healthy sole, frog and collateral grooves. Sometimes those land marks aren't in the correct place.
Using one of my cobx clients as an example:
Healthy hooves. No pathological issues, great frogs, never chips, great thick walls, exceptional concavity, rock crunching feet. Lives out, hacks twice a week in school the other 3-4. Great diet, no sugar. Awkward to trim!
If I were to trim her heels to the frog landmark and the toe to the sole landmark (actually I don't touch her toes as they are already where they should be) It would actually leave her dorsal wall angle at about 60-70degrees. I'm sure you would agree that it wouldn't be an ideal alignment for the boney column to be nearly vertical.
When you look at the hoof from the underside you would see the collatoral grooves are nearly 3inches deep!
Her heels are nearly 2inches long to accommodate the huge frog.
The only reason I can see for this happening is she lands heel first and she isn't light. So the pressure stimulating growth theory would mean the frog would keep growing after the heels have worn shorter, then because the frog is taking weight the heels can grow and it starts a cycle. The reverse cycle of an atrophied frog.
Either way, in this scenario I am happy to remove frog tissue, to allow the heels to allow the foot and bones to be at a better angle.

I have seen canker horses ... I would not describe them as hypertrophy. More as aggressive proliferation of tissue. And I agree, it's completely fowl.

If you can suggest a different way to trim this example horse that wouldn't involve trimming the frog I'm happy to listen :)
 
Hypertrophy maybe the wrong word officially but it is the term I use when I see frogs that are too big (not that it happens that often!)
http://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html

This is an interesting article from Ramey that describes what I meant about taking down the frog to a healthy level. (It's about half way down the article)
 
Do you mean that the frog is hitting the ground before the heels are? I've had horses where this was the case, especially in hind feet. I leave them and they have all packed down hard given time.

I don't think I subscribe to the theory that heels grow long because the frog is bearing the weight. On horses like that it looks more to me as if the horse has long heels and the frog expands to fill the space available.


That is a excellent article you have pointed to, and is where I got my own view of frog trimming from. It shows a case where the frog height had to be trimmed (though he still tried the horse without first, to test if it could cope). It supports the idea that it is rarely the right idea to trim the surface height off a frog, and never routinely on the same foot, because it stops the frog packing.
 
It is a good article... it has 4 points ... 2 say when to trim and 2 say when to leave alone... both arguments I had mentioned in my first reply. Take of the tatty bits that harbour infection and excess frog that would affect heels. And to leave it if it's just a case of making it pretty
 
ycbm said:
Do you mean that the frog is hitting the ground before the heels are? I've had horses where this was the case, especially in hind feet. I leave them and they have all packed down hard given time.

I don't think I subscribe to the theory that heels grow long because the frog is bearing the weight. On horses like that it looks more to me as if the horse has long heels and the frog expands to fill the space available.


That is a excellent article you have pointed to, and is where I got my own view of frog trimming from. It shows a case where the frog height had to be trimmed (though he still tried the horse without first, to test if it could cope). It supports the idea that it is rarely the right idea to trim the surface height off a frog, and never routinely on the same foot, because it stops the frog packing.
Click to expand...

No heels were flat with the frog. Both were too high
 
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