NI Hare Coursing ban introduced

[Fiagai]

A permanent ban on hare coursing events was introduced in Northern Ireland today. Alex Attwood (NI Min of the Env) is quoted as saying 'hare coursing events should not take place in a modern progressive civilised society. We all have a responsibility to protect out wildlife and certainly I want to do everything in my power to do that'

Imo simply another populist electoral speech from a city born liberal....

I wonder what he is setting his sight on next ....

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oops, sorry, just posted this, with link, apologies for repetition

 

[Fiagai]

Oops, sorry, just posted this, with link, apologies for repetition

no prob CC

Interesting that whilst hare coursing has been taking place for years with the use of muzzles and then been under temporary ban they have decided to instigate a total ban on hare coursing at this stage

what is perhaps more to the point is that NI is the one plave in the UK that proper hunting remains legal....

 

[cptrayes]

A permanent ban on hare coursing events was introduced in Northern Ireland today. Alex Attwood (NI Min of the Env) is quoted as saying 'hare coursing events should not take place in a modern progressive civilised society. We all have a responsibility to protect out wildlife and certainly I want to do everything in my power to do that'

Imo simply another populist electoral speech from a city born liberal....

I wonder what he is setting his sight on next ....

Sounds good to me. Hopefully the next thing he stops will be breeding birds so that people can shoot them half dead out of the sky and wring their necks, all in the name of sport of course.

ps I live in the country on shooting moors, so don't start the townie stuff with me!

 

[Fiagai]

Sounds good to me. Hopefully the next thing he stops will be breeding birds so that people can shoot them half dead out of the sky and wring their necks, all in the name of sport of course.


ps I live in the country on shooting moors, so don't start the townie stuff with me!

He has banned an activity that has not actually taken placed for a number of years

ref the countryside...Good for you but not refereing to your goodself, however Alex Attwood doesnt and appears to be purely political animal....

 

[cptrayes]

Do you mean that they weren't chasing hare? Or is it still legal to chase hare with a muzzle on the dogs? I understood you to mean that he has banned the chasing of a captured and then released hare with dogs. If so, then I fully support such a ban. We wouldn't allow it if the animal was a cat or toy breed of dog, there would be outrage, and there is no difference with a hare. It is tormenting a live creature for the enjoyment and/or betting activity of the humans and surely that can't be right in this day and age?

I hope no-one is going to start the conservation defence, as they do with deer and even fox, because there is no coursing near me and this area is completely riddled with brown hare.

 

[Fiagai]

Do you mean that they weren't chasing hare? Or is it still legal to chase hare with a muzzle on the dogs? I understood you to mean that he has banned the chasing of a captured and then released hare with dogs. If so, then I fully support such a ban. We wouldn't allow it if the animal was a cat or toy breed of dog, there would be outrage, and there is no difference with a hare. It is tormenting a live creature for the enjoyment and/or betting activity of the humans and surely that can't be right in this day and age?

I hope no-one is going to start the conservation defence, as they do with deer and even fox, because there is no coursing near me and this area is completely riddled with brown hare.

Hare coursing has not taken place for a number of years in NI. Prior to that it was the greyhounds legally had to wear muzzles so they could not catch or otherwise grab the hare.

And yes research has shown that the stocking / breeding policies of hare coursing clubs have had a positive effect on local hare populations

Comparison with domestic animals in this instance is not particularily useful tbh

I posted the above link NOT to debate the merrits the rights of fluffy bunnies vesus countryside pursuits rather to highlight the political machinations of politicans who make futile gestures with grandiose but otherwise meaningless speeches in order to keep themselves in the style to which they have become accustomed to...

 

[cptrayes]

Hare coursing has not taken place for a number of years in NI. Prior to that it was the greyhounds legally had to wear muzzles so they could not catch or otherwise grab the hare.

And yes research has shown that the stocking / breeding policies of hare coursing clubs have had a positive effect on local hare populations

Comparison with domestic animals in this instance is not particularily useful tbh

I posted the above link NOT to debate the merrits the rights of fluffy bunnies vesus countryside pursuits rather to highlight the political machinations of politicans who make futile gestures with grandiose but otherwise meaningless speeches in order to keep themselves in the style to which they have become accustomed to...

You posted the link on an open forum, sorry if you didn't get the response that you wanted but you can't censor the replies on HHO, or you'd be as bad as the politician you are criticising.

I don't buy the conservation argument, because the conservation does not depend on chasing the hares with dogs.

The comparison with a cat (which might be feral) and a dog (which is only a different kind of wolf and I used a toy as an example only because the dog has to be small enough for a greyhound or lurcher to catch up with) is perfectly valid. Arguably it would even be kinder. At least domestic cats and dogs are used to being put into boxes and cars and transported and handled by people. For the hare, the whole procedure is, as far as it is concerned, life threatening from start to finish. But of course hares have a particular way of running for their lives that makes it more fun to watch as they duck and dive, don't they?

No, hares are not fluffy bunnies, and neither am I, they are an endangered species. But aside from that no species deserves to be caught from the wild, held, transported and then released so that some people can enjoy watching dogs chase them across a field and bet on the result.

Hare coursing with a muzzle on was not illegal but it did not take place? Do me a favour! It may not have been advertised but I'd bet my bottom dollar that it took place unadvertised. It is completely logical to make it illegal if it was not before and your argument about futile political gestures doesn't hack it for me, sorry.


ps I do actually feel sorry for people who are really passionate about proper hunting in all its forms, who have been deprived of something that they love. People like me interrupt these discussions on this forum. I hope there is a forum somewhere for supporters only where you can chat.

 

[EAST KENT]

Please explain the catching up and releasing (factual please) stuff,because this is a new one on me. Anyway ..they`ll all just slip over the border to Eire,where coursing is a way of life like hunting.

 

[SusannaF]

My only experience of coursing was a day spent with deerhounds in Norfolk 24 hours before the ban came into force. Only one hare was caught (we passed more roadkill on the way there). I asked my godmother (who breeds deerhounds and had taken us along) why they didn't just muzzle the dogs, and she said that it had been tried in Ireland but the greyhounds just beat the hare to death instead.
How did they overcome that?

 

[Alec Swan]

cptrayes,

you are of course fully entitled to your views and thoughts. You are not however, entitled to expect that your wholly inaccurate statements, remain unchallenged.

Be certain of your facts, rather than "Betting your bottom dollar" and placing it upon hypothesised nonsense, and then others may see you in a more serious light.

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

Did I say I expected to be unchallenged Alex? You think that's what I expect when I post an anti-coursing message on a hunting forum?

I'm sorry if I was mistaken about catching and releasing a wild animal, but the coursing that I have seen on telly has had the dogs inside a large enclosure from which a lucky hare could escape. Were those hares just happening to live inside that enclosure when it was put up? I had assumed that a human released them into it, which would also have required them first to have been caught.

I would be very happy to be told the truth.

Still bet my bottom dollar that illegal coursing exists in northern Ireland. It does in Northern England on my friend's land.

 

[Fiagai]

You posted the link on an open forum, sorry if you didn't get the response that you wanted but you can't censor the replies on HHO, or you'd be as bad as the politician you are criticising.

cpt - Keeping to topic is not censorship btw. If I am talking about apples and you wish to talk about oranges -well thats fine BUT please dont expect me to divert to a verbal hijacking. Do feel free to start your own thread on your own topic if you so wish.

I don't buy the conservation argument, because the conservation does not depend on chasing the hares with dogs.

to reiterate...And yes research has shown that the stocking / breeding policies of hare coursing clubs have had a positive effect on local hare populations...yes managed conservation by Hare Coursing Clubs would appear to have a benefical role

The comparison with a cat (which might be feral) and a dog (which is only a different kind of wolf and I used a toy as an example only because the dog has to be small enough for a greyhound or lurcher to catch up with) is perfectly valid. Arguably it would even be kinder. At least domestic cats and dogs are used to being put into boxes and cars and transported and handled by people. For the hare, the whole procedure is, as far as it is concerned, life threatening from start to finish. But of course hares have a particular way of running for their lives that makes it more fun to watch as they duck and dive, don't they?
No, hares are not fluffy bunnies, and neither am I, they are an endangered species. But aside from that no species deserves to be caught from the wild, held, transported and then released so that some people can enjoy watching dogs chase them across a field and bet on the result.

You have gone off on a tangent about oranges again i'm afraid...

Hare coursing with a muzzle on was not illegal but it did not take place? Do me a favour! It may not have been advertised but I'd bet my bottom dollar that it took place unadvertised. It is completely logical to make it illegal if it was not before and your argument about futile political gestures doesn't hack it for me, sorry.

cpt - hare coursing was highly regulated with visits from vets and inspectors etc taking place on a regular basis. Muzzles were used. There was no need for it take place "unadvertised". Being "seen" to make political news when there isnt actually anything to make news about is a common method of political aggrandisement...read the paper for simular scenarios on a daily basis

ps I do actually feel sorry for people who are really passionate about proper hunting in all its forms, who have been deprived of something that they love. People like me interrupt these discussions on this forum. I hope there is a forum somewhere for supporters only where you can chat.

There is.....

 

[cptrayes]

to reiterate...And yes research has shown that the stocking / breeding policies of hare coursing clubs have had a positive effect on local hare populations...yes managed conservation by Hare Coursing Clubs would appear to have a benefical role
.

This is entirely irrelevent. It does not require a hare coursing club to conserve hare. In this area it is done by farmers who take EU grants to reduce stock levels and top late or not at all. We are so overrun with brown hare it is difficult to believe that it is an endangered animal and I had to look it up to check my facts.

It is no justification to chase an animal with dogs to say that the people who do it look after the hares nicely when they are not abusing them. You surely wouldn't consider it a defence to someone who abuses a domestic cat by encouraging their dog to chase and bite it (or butt it with a muzzle) to say that they look after it really well when they are not abusing it? But you won't see any relevance to that example, and your blindness to it is what drives antis, (of whom I am not one except in believing hare coursing and deer hunting with hounds and shooting birds for fun to be completely unjustified in the 21st century), absolutely mad.

My own belief is that the politician who you are accusing of making capital for himself has been briefed that unofficial coursing was still going on in Northern Ireland and that the only way your equivalent of the RSPCA could get it stopped was for it to be an illegal activity. I believe that because I understand how passionately country sports people love their sport, and if it was not illegal then I can see no reason why a passionate hare courser would not still be doing it. If they did indeed stop, WHY did they stop, if it was legal? It defies belief that they did.

 

[combat_claire]

(of whom I am not one except in believing hare coursing and deer hunting with hounds to be completely unjustified in the 21st century), absolutely mad.

I don't know a great deal about coursing which is why I have not felt able to contribute to this debate, but I take issue with the hunting of deer with hounds to be completely unjustified.

I am fortunate enough to spend time down on Exmoor and while I am in the area I tend to spend a lot of time going out with various local hunts including the staghounds. I have witnessed all aspects of hunting deer with hounds for myself and I am satisfied that it remains the most justifiable and humane of hunting activities. For those that are less familiar with stag hunting I will summarise - deer in the West Country cause a huge amount of damage to valuable crops, the nature of the terrain - open moorland and large areas of unfenced woodland combined with multiple small land owners makes stalking an imprecise and less humane option than hunting with hounds.

The actual process of the hunt is as follows: the stag will be harboured by an expert employed to have specific knowledge of the red deer herd. The huntsman will draw for the harboured stag and hunt it. The stag then stands at bay, at which point a skilled marksmen who follows on horseback will dispatch the stag with one shot. The stag will then be taking in a vehicle to the meet field or other suitable place where the heart is given to the landowner on whose land the stag was found on. Liver will be given to those in the field that want some; the slots can be purchased from the huntsman. The venison will be taken to kennels for distribution to the farmers who suffered crop loss from the stag. Not one part is wasted.

In addition the staghound packs also run a 24 hour casualty service for deer that are unlucky enough to be wounded in RTAs. They will take hounds out at any hour to search for and dispatch a wounded deer.

For those that want to learn more then read this link:

http://www.exmoor.org.uk/frameex.htm

 

[Fiagai]

.....
My own belief is that the politician who you are accusing of making capital for himself has been briefed that unofficial coursing was still going on in Northern Ireland and that the only way your equivalent of the RSPCA could get it stopped was for it to be an illegal activity. I believe that because I understand how passionately country sports people love their sport, and if it was not illegal then I can see no reason why a passionate hare courser would not still be doing it. If they did indeed stop, WHY did they stop, if it was legal? It defies belief that they did.

With regard to the relevant part of your post. Ok this is the logic of the issue

There was already a temporary ban, which effectively made it an illegal activity. Therefore Hare Coursing in NI had stopped following a series of such bans. Those who had been involved in (legal) hare coursing simply travelled to the Republic of Ireland where the activitycontinues and is well regulated. That said I will accept that there will always besome rogue operators however it doesnt mean that this was predominant in NI. In this regard "Illegal" hare coursing is unlikly to be stopped by making an activity that was already illegal, illegal.

BTW the Brown hare (Lepus europaeus) is an introduced species to NI where it is believed that it may be playing a role in the decline in the native species of hare (lepus timidus hibernicus).

FYI, I am not based in NI but have friends that are

In this instance Mr Attwood is simply jumping on the political bandwagon of "oh look at me havnt I done something good"

I have awarded him the useless politican award of the year....

 

[cptrayes]

the nature of the terrain - open moorland and large areas of unfenced woodland combined with multiple small land owners makes stalking an imprecise and less humane option than hunting with hounds.

The red deer herd in a very similar environment around me in the Peak Park is perfectly well managed by stalking and an expert shot at the invitation of the landowner who takes part of the kill. The marksman takes the rest as payment for his skill. I'm off to a friend's to eat some soon. I do not accept that it is necessary to chase the creature with hounds and people on horseback first.

The huntsman will draw for the harboured stag and hunt it. The stag then stands at bay
, at which point a skilled marksmen who follows on horseback will dispatch the stag with one shot.

Are you deliberately glossing over the fact that in the middle of that simple sentence somewhere a wild creature (and by nature of the hunt, often a sick or old one due for culling) can be chased for miles by hounds and riders and when it is too tired to run any further, can end up "standing at bay" in someone's back garden, on the roof of their house (I saw video on TV of that one) or anywhere else that it has tried to take refuge, before it is shot. It is clear from what happens around me and on estates in Scotland that it is perfectly possible to go straight to the one shot without the chase. You will never convince me that it is justified on welfare grounds to chase the animal with a pack of dogs first, still less to have a bunch of horse riders along for the spectacle.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Combat Claire you have missed out an important part of stag hunting the role of the tufters. I will explain for anyone who dosnt know, after the harbourer has identified where the stag is lying up not always alone the huntsman brings up the tufters .They are experienced hounds usually 2 or 3 couple and are used to separate and flush the intended stag. Once this is done the rest of the pack are laid on.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......I would be very happy to be told the truth.........

I apologise if my initial response seemed to be rather blunt, but if you are happy to hear the truth, then I may have to continue, in a similar vein!

I accept that I haven't read all of your arguments, but those which I have read, seem to be heavily influenced by what you've read, been told and watched on the telly.

Many of your statements are without foundation;

Let me assure you that hares are not an endangered species.
"Hare Shoots" are common place in many parts of the country, and though some see them as sporting, I don't. They are a necessity, because substantial damage will be done to spring crops by hares which can be in near plague proportions.
I spent many years working as a gamekeeper, and for days after a Hare Shoot, I would find dead hares which had been pricked by shot, and died a lingering death. At one time I would have been considered a better than competent shot, but none the less, I still wounded a proportion of those hares which I shot at. I no longer take part in "Hare Shoots".
The hare is an animal which is preyed upon. In the greater scheme of wildlife, this is a natural and good thing. Coursing dogs will kill a hare very quickly. There are no half measures, the hare dies, or it doesn't.
The suggestion that hares are some how trapped and transported for coursing, is completely wrong. In my youth, when I kept many coursing dogs, I once tried to release a captive hare for a young dog. The hare, if it's taken from it's own and known environment, wont run. It was an experiment which I never repeated. You'll have to trust me on this point, and trust me that I'm right.

At coursing meetings, the Slipper will very soon gauge the general health of the local population. If the first few hares are easily killed, then it becomes a pointless exercise, and the next hares will be given a greater degree of "Law". Established coursing is about testing greyhounds, it has nothing to do with actually killing hares. I will understand if you find that difficult to accept, but I can assure you that it is so.

If you go into the Quorn country, you will see coverts, as I have, which though they are shot, are actually used as sanctuaries for the local fox population, a population which is (or was!) jealously guarded. The coverts have been carefully planned and laid out for sport, and without that environment and without sport, we wouldn't have previously had a healthy vulpine population.

Understanding field sports, and those who enjoy the pastimes, actually has a very basic foundation. Psychiatrists, so I'm told, describe those who hunt as relatively uncomplicated people (sic!).

I don't expect my thoughts to propel you towards your very own Road to Damascus, but I can assure you, that as your arguments to date, seem to have been founded on the thoughts of others, rather than your own experience, then I can only suggest that you join those who hunt, and it may be that you come away from it with a clearer understanding.

Alec.

 

[SusannaF]

In the unlikely event that I go to heaven, I want to go to one where there are either girls or horses, but not both.

I should quote that as an afterword in the book!

cptrayes – I know bugger all about coursing apart from the one day out I had in Norfolk before the ban and I don't have any particular loyalties, but what I saw matched his description.
We walked all day, sweeping across fields slowly to set off the hares. All but one of the hares outran the deerhounds within seconds, and the deerhounds came gallumphing back, very pleased with themselves. The single hare that died ran in a circle - a bit of a mistake. Someone was on the scene ASAP to wring its neck, in case the dogs hadn't killed it. The dogs were marked for their ability to chase, not kill.

Of course, this could just be deerhounds. And it was all above board. But I found it considerably less icky than a trip to a factory farm.

 

[Tinkerbee]

Saw this in the paper and thought it a bit futile. We're not usually ones for abiding by laws and rules...

 

[combat_claire]

Combat Claire you have missed out an important part of stag hunting the role of the tufters. I will explain for anyone who dosnt know, after the harbourer has identified where the stag is lying up not always alone the huntsman brings up the tufters .They are experienced hounds usually 2 or 3 couple and are used to separate and flush the intended stag. Once this is done the rest of the pack are laid on.

My post was based on what happens post Hunting Act 2004, where only 2 hounds may be used. Dobiegirl's post refers to stag hunting prior to the passing of the Hunting Act.

 

[combat_claire]

The red deer herd in a very similar environment around me in the Peak Park is perfectly well managed by stalking and an expert shot at the invitation of the landowner who takes part of the kill. The marksman takes the rest as payment for his skill. I'm off to a friend's to eat some soon. I do not accept that it is necessary to chase the creature with hounds and people on horseback first.

I haven't seen the terrain that the Peak Park herd occupy so I find it very difficult to comment on the management strategy. I can only quote what an expert on red deer has written about the merits of various methods Shooting by rifle is in most parts of Britain the only practical method of culling deer; it is effective for this purpose. The problem with it is the irreducible risk of losing wounded deer; it is difficult enough killing deer in the wide open spaces of the Scottish Highlands where they are excluded from taking cover in woodland by deer-fencing; even there a small percentage – even with expert and experienced/professional stalkers – escapes wounded. On Staghunting ground in the “West Country” (South West England) shooting deer is much more problematic. The small size of many landholdings (which makes the follow-up of a wounded deer illegal without permission), the extensive un-deerfenced woodland and the nocturnal nature of the species all make the loss of wounded animals more likely. Furthermore, deer are only killed instantly if shot in the head – a small target and normally only taken at short range, and strongly disapproved of by the British Deer Society. Deer may run 50 yards with a heart shot and 100 with a lung shot (the largest lethal and usual target); such deer are often close to woodland cover in the West Country and – following a misaimed first shot – the deer can quickly be in cover, depriving the rifle of a chance of a second shot, and possibly escape wounded. Incidentally, all deer that are killed at the end of a hunt are shot with a headshot at close range and can never escape wounded.

Are you deliberately glossing over the fact that in the middle of that simple sentence somewhere a wild creature (and by nature of the hunt, often a sick or old one due for culling) can be chased for miles by hounds and riders and when it is too tired to run any further, can end up "standing at bay" in someone's back garden, on the roof of their house (I saw video on TV of that one) or anywhere else that it has tried to take refuge, before it is shot. It is clear from what happens around me and on estates in Scotland that it is perfectly possible to go straight to the one shot without the chase. You will never convince me that it is justified on welfare grounds to chase the animal with a pack of dogs first, still less to have a bunch of horse riders along for the spectacle.

I am not glossing over the realities of stag hunting. I have limited experience of hunting on the moor, but the hunted stags that I have seen at close quarters showed little sign of distress. My argument is that we are not talking about the large stalking landowners that exist in the Highlands of Scotland and elsewhere in the UK - we are talking about an area made up of multiple smallholders and large blocks of dense woodland covering steep goyles and river valleys. In this situation surely the method that ensures a clean kill rather than wounding the stag will be preferable.

 

[Alec Swan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cptrayes
The red deer herd in a very similar environment around me in the Peak Park is perfectly well managed by stalking and an expert shot at the invitation of the landowner who takes part of the kill. The marksman takes the rest as payment for his skill. I'm off to a friend's to eat some soon. I do not accept that it is necessary to chase the creature with hounds and people on horseback first.

Stalking and hunting, with hounds, are two overlapping systems by which deer are managed and whereby sport is to be had. There are those areas which lend themselves to both, but they are few. Generally, hunting a stag, with hounds on high ground would be a complete waist of time, and would distress the local deer population, beyond the acceptable. Where stalking takes place, on the hill, the areas controlled, and managed by individual land owners tend to be vast. Those land owners, in the main, assume an ethical and correct approach, and just as with hunting, specific stags are targeted, to the betterment of the herd.

In the West Country, most land owners willingly gave over the use of their land for hunting, until that is, a collection of clowns thought that they knew better, bribed government, and eventually had their way.

What's happened now, is that there is no longer a collective approach to deer management, in the West Country. There are those who will accept the vast sums of money, offered by the trophy hunter, working on the basis, presumably, that if they don't have the revenue from a dead stag, then their neighbour will, and the quality and standard of the West Country red deer, will be those to suffer.

I've stalked and shot a great many deer in my life. I've never followed, and presumably never will follow, stag hounds. How I wish that I had, because those who hunt for a certain quarry, have a better understanding of the necessary welfare and management, than all the welfare groups, put together.

It's such a shame, when ignorance gets the better of wisdom.

Alec.