No Energy & Doesnt want to move forward

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Jewells

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Hi Everyone

I'm hoping you guys can help me.

My pony Jack is a 14.2 Welsh Section D. 11 years old (he's a dope on a rope) he's not your usual welshie. i have had jack for four years now and know him very well. Jack is on a strict diet and we need to keep an eye on Jacks weight. Jack currently weighs 476kgs. He looks really good. Jack wears a muzzle at night and is in restricted grazing during the day. For Jacks breakfast he has a handful of chaff; electrolytes & 2/3 handfuls of oats. For Jacks tea he has 1 handful of chaff ; 2/3 handfuls of oats and supplement from Hack up which is supposed to give him a bit of zing . (He's been on Hack up supplement for 6 weeks and his oats & electrolytes for 3 weeks). Over the past few months Jacks energy levels are basically non existent and he simply will not go forward. He seems to be working off the forehand a lot. I have had his saddle checked his teeth done & the phyzio out to check him over. Jack gets ridden 6 days out of 7 although we are reducing this to 4 days to give him a little break to see if this helps with his energy levels. His work consists of schooling flat work, pole work jumping hacking & going out to places for some fun. Jacks seems disinterested in everything we do. When my daughter is on board & I'm on the ground I continually chase him up from the ground to encourage him to move forward. He moves forward but if I take a step back you can see him dropping a gear instantly. I tool him out for a hack today and at one point in the hack he just refused to go any further. It took me over an hour to get him to walk around 400 metres. If I turned him round pointing home direction he was keen to go that way however being asked to keep going was a no no. In the school I feel he is dead to the leg so instead of kicking him to go forward, we have changed it to squeezing for 2 seconds then repeating then tap tap tap tap with the stick then squeeze for 2 second. Jack strides out for maybe 3 strides then goes back to hardly moving. It feels like he is loosing interest in every activity we ask him to do. Could anyone recommend anything food wise or work wise that may give my pony back his sparkle.:(:(:(
 
I don't think this is going to be helped by feeding him anything different as a good doer it will probably just be converted to fat and make him lazier, at this stage the best thing is to get the vet involved as it could be so many things causing his reluctance to go forward and until you have ruled out a medical issue it will be hard to know what to do for the best.
 
If you struggle with his weight and he isn't going forward could he have bilateral low grade lameness, as in subclinical laminitis? One way to establish is to give him a few days on bute and see if he is any different (bear in mind he has got into the habit now). Mine was like that, now he has had a full blown lammi attack and has come out the other side he is a different horse.
Or check the mineral levels in your ground/grazing and/or forage (have it tested if necessary) and supplement to make up any deficiencies. If he is lacking in some minerals such a s selenium his metabolism won't be working properly and his energy levels will be on the floor. Ditto vitamins such as vitamin E
 
He definitely seems heavy for his height. My 14.2 welsh cob weights in at 425Kgs - but he is event / hunt fit.

I would echo getting the vet involved. Could be bi-lateral lameness. Could be that he is tying up slightly, or is otherwise in pain. Or he could have a low grade virus. Or just be too hot - is he clipped out?

Once you know all is OK that way... for me oats have a very limited affect. Only about 1/3 or horses are sensitive to them anyway. Oats are also unbalanced - very high in phosphorus and can interfere with calcium update so you often need to fed a balancer alongside. It wouldn't be my first choice for more oomph.

You could try something like Propell or Redcell - that can help perk up something with a short term issue. But any additional feed in a good do-er is just going to go to fat and make the situation worse. Its hard to up his workload if he is just refusing to work - but greater fitness might be the longer term answer?
 
He could be anaemic - I would get the vet out as the reluctance to move forward seems more extreme than just idleness and lack of energy. He also isn't getting much food.

It's very hard with a good doer. when you are trying to keep the weight off - I tend to go down the "exercise more" route, rather than the continual restricted diet. Humans don't lose weight healthily just by not eating - the best way is to eat properly and exercise more. I would get him checked out by the vet 1st but if he was mine, I would be trying to give him enough food to do the work and be working him hard enough to maintain his weight.

(Oats don't give horses fizz by the way)
 
...is he footsore? it wouldnt show up as lameness if he is sore on all feet, maybe get him checked over by the vet if you are not sure. if he is passed as ok by the vet why not just hack for a little while and make sure you are in company so he get encouraged to go forward. also have some lessons to see if a different person can spot what is going wrong and maybe they could ride him to get an idea of your problems.. its not worth giving him lots of food so i would just give him a balancer and nothing else. baileys do a lo call balancer that my friend fed to her horse and she didnt need to mix it with anything.....
 
Lethargy was the first subtle sign of my pony's Cushing's. If you are having the vet out (which I would), get them to run some bloods for Cushing's and EMS.
 
Agree with all above - sounds like more than a food issue, so get a vet in to check him, especially as you have had him four years and this extreme reluctance to go forwards has only occurred in the last few months.
 
Sounds like my lad just before he had low grade lami and diagnosed with ppid (or cushings) ask your vet for a blood test to check this first, take him off the oats and electrolytes, a tbsp of salt will suffice unless you're eventing or racing him...keep on with the grazing muzzle and if he comes in, soak his hay for couple of hours beforehand...don't work him at the moment until you get blood results back, doesn't cost much and it can rule out cushings if it's negative..but this is what my lad was like, I watched snails gliding past me quicker than he would walk!
 
Jewells said:
Did cushings just make his feet sore. Jack is bare foot and only footy on stoney ground
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If he is obviously footy on stoney ground then he is sensitive in his feet and this is why he doesn't want to go forward even once he is off the stones he will be sore and extra careful, if he used to be happy over stones and this is new it may be due to cushings but they don't have to have cushings to have lgl and be in pain, being barefoot will mean it is more obvious but normally means you can recognise there is an issue before it becomes too serious.
 
Jewells said:
Did cushings just make his feet sore. Jack is bare foot and only footy on stoney ground
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Cushings is usually accompanied by insulin resistance and that gives rise to laminitis. Footy on stony ground can indicate either thin soles or subclinical laminitis. Check his soles by palpating them to check if there is any movement or flexibility, and also look at the depth of the collateral groove either side of his frog. Shallow collateral groove indicates thin soles and vice versa and the sole is all that stops the column of bone from dropping on to the ground, so being footy on stones can be a precursor of a much more serious problem. That alone could suggest his feet are uncomfortable and account for his reluctance to move - really a good vet is what you need.

Whoops, cross posted with Be Positive :)
 
Yes he was footy on the stones cobbles and Tarmac roads but sound on the fields...it was the lethargy that concerned me to begin with , then I put 2 and 2 together when he became footy and it was my farrier that suggested ems first, but the vet said test for cushings, as it was free at the time....once he had started prascend, and I had feet X rayed and farrier sorted any quibbles with his feet, changed diet etc, he was fine, in fact a wee bit naughty and very forward going! Good fun and he is very happy in himself , and this is 4 years on..
 
This sounds very like my welsh d mare. She hasn't got cushings, she is muzzled, fed soaked hay and top spec lite so her weight is good but she is just not very forward. In the school if we do lots of transitions she eventually goes forwards. Out on a hack she walks very slowly until she knows she's on her way home then she marches out nicely. She doesn't seem bothered by stones. She is ridden 6 times a week, a mix of hacks, schooling and jumping.
 
Jewells said:
Hi Everyone

I'm hoping you guys can help me.

My pony Jack is a 14.2 Welsh Section D. 11 years old (he's a dope on a rope) he's not your usual welshie. i have had jack for four years now and know him very well. Jack is on a strict diet and we need to keep an eye on Jacks weight. Jack currently weighs 476kgs. He looks really good. Jack wears a muzzle at night and is in restricted grazing during the day. For Jacks breakfast he has a handful of chaff; electrolytes & 2/3 handfuls of oats. For Jacks tea he has 1 handful of chaff ; 2/3 handfuls of oats and supplement from Hack up which is supposed to give him a bit of zing . (He's been on Hack up supplement for 6 weeks and his oats & electrolytes for 3 weeks). Over the past few months Jacks energy levels are basically non existent and he simply will not go forward. He seems to be working off the forehand a lot. I have had his saddle checked his teeth done & the phyzio out to check him over. Jack gets ridden 6 days out of 7 although we are reducing this to 4 days to give him a little break to see if this helps with his energy levels. His work consists of schooling flat work, pole work jumping hacking & going out to places for some fun. Jacks seems disinterested in everything we do. When my daughter is on board & I'm on the ground I continually chase him up from the ground to encourage him to move forward. He moves forward but if I take a step back you can see him dropping a gear instantly. I tool him out for a hack today and at one point in the hack he just refused to go any further. It took me over an hour to get him to walk around 400 metres. If I turned him round pointing home direction he was keen to go that way however being asked to keep going was a no no. In the school I feel he is dead to the leg so instead of kicking him to go forward, we have changed it to squeezing for 2 seconds then repeating then tap tap tap tap with the stick then squeeze for 2 second. Jack strides out for maybe 3 strides then goes back to hardly moving. It feels like he is loosing interest in every activity we ask him to do. Could anyone recommend anything food wise or work wise that may give my pony back his sparkle.:(:(:(
Click to expand...

He sounds like he is just not getting enough food.

Being on a restricted diet does play havoc with energy levels and as you work him most days he could be given far more than you are currently giving.

Why does he wear a muzzle at night but is out on restricted grazing during the day?

This is how I care for my fatties. ( I have a Clydesdale currently who lives on fresh air) but I had a riding school for many years with quite a few fatties.

They had access 24/7 to very short grazing, at least 1acre - ignore the very short grass is stressed and has too much sugar in it. If its very short the pony cannot get much at a time, to get a full tummy they have to walk around and around, constantly grazing which controls the amount they eat, means they are being trickle fed and also getting the all important exercise.

Mine gets very little work as I am no longer able to ride due to long term injuries so she gets no supplementary feed - she has a mineral block. At one time she was got fit for the Xmas Clydesdale race so she had oats and chaff added to her diet. At this point she was trotting 20kms a day. She needed extra food.

Obviously the level of work was built up over a period of time but she started off sluggish and disinterested. As her work increased her feed increased and her fitness increased, along with this her energy levels increased.

I think you need to start upping your boys food and not decrease the work, you need him to get fit but you need to give him the Protein and Carbohydrates that will help build his muscles and increase his energy levels.

Feeding by handfuls is not the best way to measure feed, get yourself some litre plastic jugs,

Make his feeds 3/4 fibre (chaff or beet pulp) and 1/4 oats. Start the oats at 1 cup for the first week, increase to 2 the second week, allow time for this to have an effect, week 3 - 3 cups oats - with each increase of oats you'll increase the fibre.

I would also get the vet to give him a check over - take bloods and check parasite levels, iron levels, & selenium levels

I'm not sure what you weather patterns have been of late as I'm in NZ. But I know from all the years I lived in UK you can have droughty summers followed by a good amount of rain and the grass starts to grow again - and so do the parasites, they have a mad hatching session, so worming at this time of year is important - a worm count would be a good idea too
 
Jewells said:
Hi Everyone

I'm hoping you guys can help me.

My pony Jack is a 14.2 Welsh Section D. 11 years old (he's a dope on a rope) he's not your usual welshie. i have had jack for four years now and know him very well. Jack is on a strict diet and we need to keep an eye on Jacks weight. Jack currently weighs 476kgs. He looks really good. Jack wears a muzzle at night and is in restricted grazing during the day. For Jacks breakfast he has a handful of chaff; electrolytes & 2/3 handfuls of oats. For Jacks tea he has 1 handful of chaff ; 2/3 handfuls of oats and supplement from Hack up which is supposed to give him a bit of zing . (He's been on Hack up supplement for 6 weeks and his oats & electrolytes for 3 weeks). Over the past few months Jacks energy levels are basically non existent and he simply will not go forward. He seems to be working off the forehand a lot. I have had his saddle checked his teeth done & the phyzio out to check him over. Jack gets ridden 6 days out of 7 although we are reducing this to 4 days to give him a little break to see if this helps with his energy levels. His work consists of schooling flat work, pole work jumping hacking & going out to places for some fun. Jacks seems disinterested in everything we do. When my daughter is on board & I'm on the ground I continually chase him up from the ground to encourage him to move forward. He moves forward but if I take a step back you can see him dropping a gear instantly. I tool him out for a hack today and at one point in the hack he just refused to go any further. It took me over an hour to get him to walk around 400 metres. If I turned him round pointing home direction he was keen to go that way however being asked to keep going was a no no. In the school I feel he is dead to the leg so instead of kicking him to go forward, we have changed it to squeezing for 2 seconds then repeating then tap tap tap tap with the stick then squeeze for 2 second. Jack strides out for maybe 3 strides then goes back to hardly moving. It feels like he is loosing interest in every activity we ask him to do. Could anyone recommend anything food wise or work wise that may give my pony back his sparkle.:(:(:(
Click to expand...
This was a horse here last week including napping badly - when asked to go forward she planted her self - we suspect ulcers so scope booked in next week
 
My sluggish horse had a bacterial/viral infection and sore hocks. I echo getting a blood test to rule out cushings etc, also try a course of Global Herbs restore, it took him a long time to recover.

I also agree that the reluctance to go forwards could be medical & means you should probably invest in getting a vet to check him, it could be anything from spavins to laminitis, a vet call out would be worth the money for the peace of mind and they could advise you on diet too. Good luck, hope you get some answers.
 
Tnavas said:
He sounds like he is just not getting enough food.

Being on a restricted diet does play havoc with energy levels and as you work him most days he could be given far more than you are currently giving.

Why does he wear a muzzle at night but is out on restricted grazing during the day?

This is how I care for my fatties. ( I have a Clydesdale currently who lives on fresh air) but I had a riding school for many years with quite a few fatties.

They had access 24/7 to very short grazing, at least 1acre - ignore the very short grass is stressed and has too much sugar in it. If its very short the pony cannot get much at a time, to get a full tummy they have to walk around and around, constantly grazing which controls the amount they eat, means they are being trickle fed and also getting the all important exercise.

Mine gets very little work as I am no longer able to ride due to long term injuries so she gets no supplementary feed - she has a mineral block. At one time she was got fit for the Xmas Clydesdale race so she had oats and chaff added to her diet. At this point she was trotting 20kms a day. She needed extra food.

Obviously the level of work was built up over a period of time but she started off sluggish and disinterested. As her work increased her feed increased and her fitness increased, along with this her energy levels increased.

I think you need to start upping your boys food and not decrease the work, you need him to get fit but you need to give him the Protein and Carbohydrates that will help build his muscles and increase his energy levels.

Feeding by handfuls is not the best way to measure feed, get yourself some litre plastic jugs,

Make his feeds 3/4 fibre (chaff or beet pulp) and 1/4 oats. Start the oats at 1 cup for the first week, increase to 2 the second week, allow time for this to have an effect, week 3 - 3 cups oats - with each increase of oats you'll increase the fibre.

I would also get the vet to give him a check over - take bloods and check parasite levels, iron levels, & selenium levels

I'm not sure what you weather patterns have been of late as I'm in NZ. But I know from all the years I lived in UK you can have droughty summers followed by a good amount of rain and the grass starts to grow again - and so do the parasites, they have a mad hatching session, so worming at this time of year is important - a worm count would be a good idea too
Click to expand...

sorry but the last thing needed for this pony is more food!!!!! a vet check is the most important as he may have laminitis starting and to give more food would be very bad for him.....
 
splashgirl45 said:
sorry but the last thing needed for this pony is more food!!!!! a vet check is the most important as he may have laminitis starting and to give more food would be very bad for him.....
Click to expand...

Really! Go back and read the OP's post, the pony has been like this for several months, has been seen by a physio who would certainly notice if laminitic. Pony picks up speed if turned towards home, a lamimitic would not do that.

Then look at the amount of work it's doing and the amount of feed its getting.
 
Tnavas said:
Really! Go back and read the OP's post, the pony has been like this for several months, has been seen by a physio who would certainly notice if laminitic. Pony picks up speed if turned towards home, a lamimitic would not do that.

Then look at the amount of work it's doing and the amount of feed its getting.
Click to expand...

we will obviously have to disagree, i feel if he is footy on stones there must be a problem and would still say get the vet.
 
splashgirl45 said:
we will obviously have to disagree, i feel if he is footy on stones there must be a problem and would still say get the vet.
Click to expand...

Which is also what I said to rule out any other problems that are causing the lethargy! My mare is footy over stony ground too and she has NEVER had laminitis, she just finds some stony surfaces uncomfortable.
 
This a job for the vet .
It may be the prolonged dieting which can make horses very miserable .
But a vet check and some blood work is called for .
 
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