No such thing as an Alpha in the social structure of a herd?

[Enfys]

Hmmmmmmmm.

Really? Dominate is just a word, Thesaurus can list a dozen phrases that apply to horse hierarchy.

https://www.facebook.com/4026253199...2625319941665/409496732587857/?type=1&theater

 

[Equi]

I think it refers more to the fact if anyone has a problem with a horses behaviour they claim they are dominant and need natural horsemanship used. That's not always true. It can be learned behaviour.

There is definitely a hierarchy in herds though.

 

[EstherYoung]

It's not a fixed hierarchy though, it depends on the characters and the situation. For example, my youngster Wolf is a dominant git in the field. He chases our companion pony and bullies Spud given half the chance. Spud bullies Felix and gets quite mean with him. But Felix will quite happily get bold and cheeky with Wolf.

And if Wolf's being ridden, they all pick on him

 

[9tails]

The picture is talking about the horse:human relationship.

 

[I*HM]

I think there is a definite hierarchy in horse herds, though this is often context specific - feeding/in the field/grazing/etc as the hierarchy structure isn't fixed. However, this isn't applicable to horse human relationships. In such a case, I think bad behaviour translates more as learnt behaviour.

 

[SpottyMare]

But just one word can mean so many different things...

On horse behaviour both Abigail Hogg and Lucy Davies are interesting reads, and chime more with my observations of horse behaviour than the views espoused by some 'NH' practitioners.

 

[Morgan123]

What an irritating meme thingy - not because they don't have a valid point to make, just because they've made it so badly!!! I almost feel like emailing them about it. I think they are trying to make a sensible point about the horse:human relationship but they've massively confused it by mentioning the social structure of a herd.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Their is a hierarchy but as pointed out, it's not fixed and neither is it linear. The dominance theory such as that put around by horse trainers, is bunkum used to persuade people there is an easy fix to being scared of horses. With regards to people and horses, I don't believe horses see us as horses-they might like some people, be scared of some people, be indifferent to some people or not 'like'/distrust etc or think we're inconsequential.

Some horses are more socially ambitious and therefore may be seen as a bit pushy but they've learned that by someone allowing/encouraging the behaviour. The NH lot (mostly) have no idea on equine behaviour and even less idea on equine learning theory from what I've seen.

 

[Barnacle]

Things like this irritate me to no end. Hierarchy and dominance are no simple matter in horses.

It's been widely studied topic and the results all differ. It's not a simple case of "there's an alpha" (a term that applies to wolves by the way - not horses - I have never seen "alpha" in the serious literature). Some groups seem to arrange hierarchy by age, others by size, others by a combination. Some arrangements are linear, others are not. Stallions are often subordinate to some of the mares, but not all. Sometimes the offspring of horses will 'inherit' some degree of rank, sometimes not. Due to investment payoffs, mares in good condition who are likely higher ranked seem more likely to produce colts than fillies - who of course get driven away. In the "wild", horses have fission-fusion herd dynamics. They don't live in stable groups... Basically, it's complicated!

ANY blanket statement concerning dominance or hierarchy in horses needs to be approached with a healthy dose of skepticism.

And that's without the further complication of how humans fit in.

 

[Lancelot]

This is such a timely post for me. Today this popped up in my FB newsfeed and has given me much to think about today!!

http://www.horsecollaborative.com/just-another-deluded-cowboy/

 

[Achinghips]

Top and bottom stay static, it's the middle ranks that shuffle, ime

 

[flirtygerty]

having recently loaned out my 'herd leader', it's been interesting watching the remaining three, two oldies, (one ex brood mare) and a youngster (5yr old), my gelding kept them all in their place, he had the choice of hay piles, he would move them round the field, he came up to them and they moved, no doubt in my mind he was in control, now the two oldies seem to spend a lot of time together and take it in turns to chase off/threaten the youngster, but my impression is, they don't know quite what to do without the gelding

 

[rara007]

We very much have some top geldings (geldings only zone) that are always top and some of the others don't even come in the field with if they have access to two. They're also the hardest on the ground (but good workers)...
We had a ought issue a few years back where one was significantly bigger than the herd (17hh vs next at 13.3 average 13hh) and he was automatically top, yet as a young 4 year old in a herd of adults he didn't actually want to be!

 

[LHIS]

My pony is turned out with a mixed herd of 4 other horses. A 22 yr old gelding is the boss of the field, then his 9 yr old sister, then my 5 yr old gelding, then a 10 yr old gelding, and at the bottom an 9 yr old mare.
The 22 yr old gelding and his sister are on grass livery elsewhere at the moment whilst their owner is away. The herd hierarchy has remained the same and my 5 yr old is enjoying being a complete bossy boots, and if anything the 'power' has most definitely gone to his head.
I'm looking forward to the top 2 coming back in a week to teach him some manners and pop him back in his place.