No Winter Turnout - Welfare issue?

[Catflash]

I have recently moved to a different part the country and have been shocked to find that some livery yard owners/managers think it is acceptable to provide no Winter turnout at all. I moved my horse to a yard this summer and had been told winter turnout would be restricted due to heavy ground but in reality the horses came in at the end of October and don't go out until April. The only time they leave their stable is to be worked and for 15mins a day run around and roll in a small round pen. I have now thankfully found a place at another yard with all day turnout.
I'm sure most people would think it unfair or even cruel to keep other animals in such confined spaces so why do horses get such a bad deal. A stable is after all a very small cage.

 

[Tiddlypom]

This subject has already been done to death on this forum, especially when posters start to call stables 'cages'.

If owners keep their horse at a yard with no turnout, it is up to them to make sure that the horse has plenty of exercise and time out of the stable. Horses can and do cope without winter turnout if well managed. Is it ideal? No, it is not.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Many high end horses , racers etc do not get much turnout at all

 

[AWinter]

Yes it’s a welfare issue

 

[SantaVera]

yes it is a welfare issue

 

[SO1]

I think climate change is partly to blame. Wetter mild winters and hotter summers is not great for horse keeping. Some places that may have been fine for turnout may no longer be able to offer it and it becomes harder for people to find places that can offer it all year round.

The yard I was on had all year good turnout but in order to have that they bring in at night all year round rather than 24/7 turnout in the summer.

 

[Trickywooo]

Yes it most certainly is a welfare issue, and something I would never subject my horses to.
Unfortunately it seems to be something that is becoming more and more common amongst livery yards these days.
I'm glad you managed to find somewhere else x

 

[meleeka]

This subject has already been done to death on this forum, especially when posters start to call stables 'cages'.

What are they if they aren’t the means to confine an animal? Perhaps kennel would be better, but it is essentially the same thing.

I think it a welfare issue when it’s every day, rain or shine. Confining a horse for 23 hours a day isn’t something I’d consider, except for the odd duvet say or if box rest is necessary.

 

[Leandy]

Yes it most certainly is a welfare issue, and something I would never subject my horses to.
Unfortunately it seems to be something that is becoming more and more common amongst livery yards these days.
I'm glad you managed to find somewhere else x

It really isn't becoming more common! Rather the reverse. How old are you? If you go back 50 years and more you will find that working horses were regularly stabled 24/7, and also worked much harder too. Go back far enough and you will find that loose boxes were new fangled inventions and before that many horses were in fact stabled in stalls where they couldn't even turn round. The in at night/out during during the day type model has really only developed over the last few decades, as people realised that more turn out was more optimal and as horses have become leisure horses rather than "working" horses working several hours a day. I'm not saying stable management in far gone times was preferable, but the trend is more turn out not less.

 

[ycbm]

It really isn't becoming more common! Rather the reverse. How old are you? If you go back 50 years and more you will find that working horses were regularly stabled 24/7, and also worked much harder too. Go back far enough and you will find that loose boxes were new fangled inventions and before that many horses were in fact stabled in stalls where they couldn't even turn round. The in at night/out during during the day type model has really only developed over the last few decades, as people realised that more turn out was more optimal and as horses have become leisure horses rather than "working" horses working several hours a day. I'm not saying stable management in far gone times was preferable, but the trend is more turn out not less.

Absolutely. I would add to this that the fact that more turnout has become the norm wasn't primarily driven by the welfare of the horse so much as driven by the working leisure rider who did not have time to ride or the money to pay someone else to do it.
.

 

[Merrymoles]

It really isn't becoming more common! Rather the reverse. How old are you? If you go back 50 years and more you will find that working horses were regularly stabled 24/7, and also worked much harder too. Go back far enough and you will find that loose boxes were new fangled inventions and before that many horses were in fact stabled in stalls where they couldn't even turn round. The in at night/out during during the day type model has really only developed over the last few decades, as people realised that more turn out was more optimal and as horses have become leisure horses rather than "working" horses working several hours a day. I'm not saying stable management in far gone times was preferable, but the trend is more turn out not less.

You are completely right in this but the difference is that those horses were worked many hours a day so not confined in a small space for 23 hours. But they were working horses so a completely different kettle of fish to leisure horses, usually with owners who need to work full time to afford them so have limited time to provide sufficient exercise. Some "working" horses are still kept in a similar way - eg police horses, armed forces horses, riding school horses, racehorses - but they are all given daily regular exercise. ETA although loose boxes are now the norm but when I was a child the riding school ponies were kept tethered in stalls.

 

[Trickywooo]

It really isn't becoming more common! Rather the reverse. How old are you? If you go back 50 years and more you will find that working horses were regularly stabled 24/7, and also worked much harder too. Go back far enough and you will find that loose boxes were new fangled inventions and before that many horses were in fact stabled in stalls where they couldn't even turn round. The in at night/out during during the day type model has really only developed over the last few decades, as people realised that more turn out was more optimal and as horses have become leisure horses rather than "working" horses working several hours a day. I'm not saying stable management in far gone times was preferable, but the trend is more turn out not less.

Excuse me!? No need to be rude or patronising thanks. If you read my original comment what I actually said was it is becoming more common among LIVERY YARDS, not the way horses are managed in general.

 

[Leandy]

You are completely right in this but the difference is that those horses were worked many hours a day so not confined in a small space for 23 hours. But they were working horses so a completely different kettle of fish to leisure horses, usually with owners who need to work full time to afford them so have limited time to provide sufficient exercise. Some "working" horses are still kept in a similar way - eg police horses, armed forces horses, riding school horses, racehorses - but they are all given daily regular exercise. ETA although loose boxes are now the norm but when I was a child the riding school ponies were kept tethered in stalls.

Absolutely, so it is lack of sufficient exercise which is a potential welfare issue, not lack of turnout for a few months a year per se.

 

[Trickywooo]

Absolutely, so it is lack of sufficient exercise which is a potential welfare issue, not lack of turnout for a few months a year per se.

Exercise and turnout are not the same thing. Not even close. Horses need "down time" and time to socialise. They can't do that with a rider on their back.

 

[Leandy]

Excuse me!? No need to be rude or patronising thanks. If you read my original comment what I actually said was it is becoming more common among LIVERY YARDS, not the way horses are managed in general.

No intention to be rude or patronising. Just asking genuine questions and giving a genuine perspective . Livery yards have existed for decades and centuries also although again their function has changed over time to provide a service for leisure riders who do not own their own facilities.

 

[ycbm]

Deleted.

 

[Trickywooo]

No intention to be rude or patronising. Just asking genuine questions and giving a genuine perspective . Livery yards have existed for decades and centuries also although again their function has changed over time to provide a service for leisure riders who do not own their own facilities.

In my opinion and experience, it is something that is becoming more common. Agree to disagree

 

[Leandy]

Exercise and turnout are not the same thing. Not even close. Horses need "down time" and time to socialise. They can't do that with a rider on their back.

I see you are trying to be controversial and misconstrue people's genuine views and perspectives so I'll leave you to it!

 

[Trickywooo]

Deleted.

Questioning my age is not relevant or necessary and yes I found it patronising. I'm not sure what you mean about my first post or why it is relevant, but I have posted in several other discussions on here over the previous week so this is hardly my first post

 

[ycbm]

Hence why it was deleted, part of it was written in error. This is the correct version.

Excuse me!? No need to be rude or patronising thanks. If you read my original comment what I actually said was it is becoming more common among LIVERY YARDS, not the way horses are managed in general.

Nobody has been rude or patronising. You've been on the forum for a few days, it might be better to get used to it for a while before throwing around accusations like that.
.

 

[Trickywooo]

I see you are trying to be controversial and misconstrue people's genuine views and perspectives so I'll leave you to it!

I am certainly not trying to be controversial. I am simply giving my views on what is being discussed, but interesting how you have accused me of doing something you did yourself with my original post on this thread.
Perfectly happy to leave it at that. Have a nice day

 

[Trickywooo]

Hence why it was deleted, part of it was written in error. This is the correct version.




Nobody has been rude or patronising. You've been on the forum for a few days, it might be better to get used to it for a while before throwing around accusations like that.
.

And again I found it came across as patronising. It's resolved now so please let it be.

 

[Leandy]

I am certainly not trying to be controversial. I am simply giving my vires on what is being discussed, but interesting how you have accused me of doing something you did yourself with my original post on this thread.
Perfectly happy to leave it at that. Have a nice day

Hey?!

 

[ycbm]

And again I found it came across as patronising. It's resolved now so please let it be.

You cannot tell other posters what they can post on an open forum, sorry. If you found what Leandy wrote patronising then you're probably going to feel patronised quite often on HHO.
.

 

[Fluffypiglet]

Unfortunately on clay soil in an overdeveloped part of the country (southeast Sussex/surrey border) we simply don’t have a choice of yards that offer excellent turnout. I won’t get another horse after this one as it doesn’t sit well with me but current horse copes ok with our turnout, albeit relatively limited when the fields are just standing water. Our YO is brilliant and turns out as soon as we can see the fields rather than water but it’s difficult when we’re getting this constant heavy rain. 20 odd years ago when I’m sure the weather wasn’t this extreme i was at a yard that kept them all in from September/October to April/May and now I wouldn’t consider such a situation but then again, limited options. That yard has now closed anyway.

 

[HappyHollyDays]

Call me cynical but a first time poster posts something controversial sits back and watches the mayhem unfold. Remind you of anyone?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Call me cynical but a first time poster posts something controversial sits back and watches the mayhem unfold. Remind you of anyone?

It'll be someone trolling, for sure.

 

[Catflash]

This is a genuine post. The mayhem has not been caused by the subject matter.

 

[AmyMay]

Questioning my age is not relevant or necessary and yes I found it patronising. I'm not sure what you mean about my first post or why it is relevant, but I have posted in several other discussions on here over the previous week so this is hardly my first post

The age question was simply to establish whether you were 20, 50 or 90.

Depending on your age and length of time around horses you’ll understand just how the leisure vs work aspect of horses have changed.

 

[ycbm]

What are they if they aren’t the means to confine an animal? Perhaps kennel would be better, but it is essentially the same thing.

For me both a cage and the modern use of the word kennel suggests an enclosure which the animal inside can't escape from. Unless you have bars on the doors, most horses could easily get out over or through most stable doors if they were motivated enough, and I've had horses and seen other horses do just that.

Interestingly, my own horse was noticeably more relaxed in a stable without antiweave bars on the door, meaning he could jump/climb out if he wanted.
.