Non-specific lameness . . .

PolarSkye

PolarSkye

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. . . not really after a diagnosis, just need to have a rant (although if anyone has any ideas they'd be very welcome).

Kali is lame . . . again. Probably 2/10ths. Length of stride not altered much, no heat or lumps/bumps anywhere in the affected leg (offside fore), shod two weeks ago so not nail bind or needing to be shod, front feet are now a pair so it's not due to an imbalance between his two fronts (one is a slight club foot), no tenderness in the foot, no thrush (that I can see) . . . he's ok'ish in walk but shows lameness in trot on the left rein and just looks "ouchy" on that offside fore. Sound in canter. He has quite an extravagant knee action so diagnosing lameness in front is tough b/c his action tends to disguise it somewhat. Plus his club foot does affect how he goes. He's lame both on a straight line on a hard surface and on a circle in the school.

I'm resting him (no work but regular turnout) until Sunday to see what happens. No point getting the vet out yet b/c there's nothing to see.

It's just frustating b/c I suspect he's done something in the field - I watched him gallop away from me the other day and do a vertical handstand just for the sheer joy of being alive . . . but the only way I can make sure he's sensible in the field is to make sure he works, but while he's lame he can't work - which raises the possibility of him being stupid in the field!

I started bringing him back into work in January after 3 months off and he's developing his fitness and strength . . . but between getting tangled in barbed wire, issues with shoeing and now this his return to work has not been consistent . . . plus, the fitter he gets the more energy he has, so the more idiotic he is in the field.

No point really . . . just grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

P
 
This is an actual question, just out of curiosity . . . if his feet are not naturally a pair, what is the reasoning behind what I infer to be corrective shoeing to make them a pair? Was ir to correct a lameness? Are they the same structurally on x-ray and one just grew "wrong" before for some reason?
 
TarrSteps said:
This is an actual question, just out of curiosity . . . if his feet are not naturally a pair, what is the reasoning behind what I infer to be corrective shoeing to make them a pair? Was ir to correct a lameness? Are they the same structurally on x-ray and one just grew "wrong" before for some reason?
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He has a slight club foot . . . and he had a period of being shoeless while on his little holiday this winter resulting in the club growing rather faster than the normal foot making the heel much higher. I wouldn't say he had corrective shoeing - just that my (new) farrier has over the last three times he has visited trimmed accordingly (and gradually) and although you can still see the difference between the two, he looks more "balanced" in front (and is now shod in front again).

He's had the club since we bought him - and the general feeling from farriers/vet is that he's had it since he was a baby.

Hope that answers your question . . .

P
 
TarrSteps said:
This is an actual question, just out of curiosity . . . if his feet are not naturally a pair, what is the reasoning behind what I infer to be corrective shoeing to make them a pair? Was ir to correct a lameness? Are they the same structurally on x-ray and one just grew "wrong" before for some reason?
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^^ This ^^

My horse has two slightly different front feet. My previous farrier spent 2 years trying to make them into a pair by chopping the toes off the bigger foot... horse spent 2 years on and off lame. When I changed to a remedial (my current) farrier, the first thing he said was that the horse has two different feet and needs to be allowed to have that. He had a couple of weeks at the end of the first two shoeing cycles with this farrier, as he slowly changed his feet, but since then he's been great. He has ringbone and a slight club foot (same leg); allowing him to have different feet seems to work for him. My horse looks a bit odd because one foot is smaller than the other but my farrier just allows them to do their own thing. His feet are the best and strongest they've ever been, and he is more comfortable than ever.

I'd be inclined to question why your farrier is trying to make the feet identical - it's worth considering that the horse probably grows the foot he needs to support whatever he may or may not have going on elsewhere in his body/leg. Ask the barefoot people about how the feet of horses with bone spavins tend to grow if left to their own devices, and the horses are usually (I believe) more sound after.

Has the horse had x-rays taken to check what's going on in the foot?
 
^^^ This!!

We're far to hung up on how feet look rather than how they function, he'd have been born with that club foot therefore that leg (and every other part of his body) will have grown and adapted to accommodate it, trying to match it to the other foot is asking for trouble.
 
chestnut cob said:
^^ This ^^

My horse has two slightly different front feet. My previous farrier spent 2 years trying to make them into a pair by chopping the toes off the bigger foot... horse spent 2 years on and off lame. When I changed to a remedial (my current) farrier, the first thing he said was that the horse has two different feet and needs to be allowed to have that. He had a couple of weeks at the end of the first two shoeing cycles with this farrier, as he slowly changed his feet, but since then he's been great. He has ringbone and a slight club foot (same leg); allowing him to have different feet seems to work for him. My horse looks a bit odd because one foot is smaller than the other but my farrier just allows them to do their own thing. His feet are the best and strongest they've ever been, and he is more comfortable than ever.

I'd be inclined to question why your farrier is trying to make the feet identical - it's worth considering that the horse probably grows the foot he needs to support whatever he may or may not have going on elsewhere in his body/leg. Ask the barefoot people about how the feet of horses with bone spavins tend to grow if left to their own devices, and the horses are usually (I believe) more sound after.

Has the horse had x-rays taken to check what's going on in the foot?
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Sort of agree/disagree. My mare with bone spavins had physiotherapy after spavins were diagnosed and corrective shoeing given to her. Physiotherapist said that the way she had been moving while spavins were developing had put strain on other joints. Corrective shoeing and physio made her a much happier sounder horse.
Just because he has developed a club foot as a response to what is going on elsewhere doesn't mean iit is a good thing!
 
Smogul said:
Sort of agree/disagree. My mare with bone spavins had physiotherapy after spavins were diagnosed and corrective shoeing given to her. Physiotherapist said that the way she had been moving while spavins were developing had put strain on other joints. Corrective shoeing and physio made her a much happier sounder horse.
Just because he has developed a club foot as a response to what is going on elsewhere doesn't mean iit is a good thing!
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Where did I say a club foot was a good thing?! You've misunderstood me. What I said is that the horse has different shaped feet. My horse, my farrier thinks, would most likely have been born with his slight club foot so his body has adapted to it. He is used to having different feet and when a farrier came along who tried to make them match, he then had to use himself differently and was lame. I would question the wisdom of trying to change too much about a 14yo horse who has spent his entire life with a wonky foot. All I can say is that my horse is much happier and more comfortable with two different feet. He still has "corrective" shoeing (though I prefer to call it remedial)... he has Natural Balance shoes in front which allow him to move in the way he chooses and breakover wherever he wants to (he tends to walk slightly on the outside of the bad foot and moves straight on the normal foot.. this works for him and he's happy). Put him in shoes that try to correct this and chop the other foot up to match, and I have one lame horse.

It's a chicken and egg question.. if the horse is born with a club foot then surely the rest of the body adapts to this, rather than the other way around?
 
For what it's worth I think the foot shape discussion is a red herring. All the symptoms you describe are indicative of muscle issues either in the shoulder or pectorals. BTW, did you say getting tangled in barbed wire? When did that happen? Presumably this was a fairly traumatic event for him and more than enough for him to tear/damage said muscles. When you girth him up does he flinch or show any other indications of pain? You can also try lifting the front legs straight out in front and then slowly lifting them. As you lift the leg, if he has a problem in the pectorals you will often see him flinch. It's very distinctive and difficult to miss.
 
Goody Goody why do you think the mismatched feet are a red herring? Most fore lameness issues come from front feet and it would be very probable since this horse does not have a pair that the issue is coming from them. I am curious as to what makes you think this horse may have muscle damage? Shoulder and pectoral muscle issues? As a cause of lameness would be very rare inded. And if a muscle had torn, you would know about it. The swelling and blood loss involved subcuateneously when a muscle is torn in a horse is horrendous and I speak from experience on this one....Just curious why people suggest shoulders as the cause of most fore lameness issues when over 80% of fore limb lameness issues are from feet....
 
Livinghorse, I go back to the original post. Of course lameness can come from many quarters. It really is impossible to say without seeing the horse. I've seen lame horses that when ridden are no longer lame and vice versa. In my experience 'club foot' is rarely a cause in itself and very often lameness and poor performance have at their root a muscular cause. Of course this is not necessarily the case and a clear and specific diagnosis is always essential from someone experienced
 
livinghorse said:
I am curious as to what makes you think this horse may have muscle damage? Shoulder and pectoral muscle issues? As a cause of lameness would be very rare inded. And if a muscle had torn, you would know about it. The swelling and blood loss involved subcuateneously when a muscle is torn in a horse is horrendous and I speak from experience on this one....Just curious why people suggest shoulders as the cause of most fore lameness issues when over 80% of fore limb lameness issues are from feet....
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because GoodyGoody thinks all issues are to do with 'muscle damage' even kissing spine? :confused: He's rehabbed someoneshorse who was apparently said to be unrideable by 2 vets from KS, but has yet to explain which vets claimed this and why the horse wasn't referred for a KS op! 1 horse makes you an expert apparently.
 
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Ok I do also think it is most likely the horses front feet. Normally a horse with a more up right ' club ' foot has a Shirley leg on that side an this is why it has a club foot to compensate for this. They are normally find when shod or not but if you start making them the same you need to put a thicker shoe on the club foot so the legs are the same length!!! Other wise the horse will be lame!
 
hiya, i am having very similar problems with my mare atm. she is 3 or 4 10ths lame in front on the right rein on a circle in the school, sound in walk and canter and is also sound in all paces when working correctly (well obviously she isnt sound but it is masked when she works correctly, and she goes exactly how she did when she was sound). there is no heat, swelling, cuts, bruises, puss, lumps etc bar an old splint on that right fore. i think it may have gotten bigger since i bought her in april, but that may be me imagining it! she is sound to the left. since i have had her this has been a recurring thing, even though i vetted her when i bought her! she went lame 3 days later :( she came sound after a month off and physio, but is back to lame again with the physio showing no improvement. she has just had 2 weeks off and came back the same if not a little stiffer :(

just wondering how your horse is getting on and if there are any similarities with mine. vets have looked at her but said they dont have a clue without expensive tests etc and want to send her to newmarket.

any suggestions or advice welcome :)
 
Pentium2912 said:
hiya, i am having very similar problems with my mare atm. she is 3 or 4 10ths lame in front on the right rein on a circle in the school, sound in walk and canter and is also sound in all paces when working correctly (well obviously she isnt sound but it is masked when she works correctly, and she goes exactly how she did when she was sound). there is no heat, swelling, cuts, bruises, puss, lumps etc bar an old splint on that right fore. i think it may have gotten bigger since i bought her in april, but that may be me imagining it! she is sound to the left. since i have had her this has been a recurring thing, even though i vetted her when i bought her! she went lame 3 days later :( she came sound after a month off and physio, but is back to lame again with the physio showing no improvement. she has just had 2 weeks off and came back the same if not a little stiffer :(

just wondering how your horse is getting on and if there are any similarities with mine. vets have looked at her but said they dont have a clue without expensive tests etc and want to send her to newmarket.

any suggestions or advice welcome :)
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Hi - even though Kal was also lame on a circle in the school, at his worst he was also lame in a straight line and no amount of "correct" work masked the lameness.

Ultimate diagnosis was navicular in both fronts . . . after box rest, remedial shoeing/farriery and biting the bulle and doing what the vet said and working him (it was hard to work a lame horse) he is now sound off bute. He's been brought back into work, has remained sound and is going out to Fair Oak early next month.

We manage him very carefully. No roadwork. We avoid hard ground like the plague and we keep his work varied to build overall strength and fitness.

Best of luck with your mare.
 
PolarSkye said:
Hi - even though Kal was also lame on a circle in the school, at his worst he was also lame in a straight line and no amount of "correct" work masked the lameness.

Ultimate diagnosis was navicular in both fronts . . . after box rest, remedial shoeing/farriery and biting the bulle and doing what the vet said and working him (it was hard to work a lame horse) he is now sound off bute. He's been brought back into work, has remained sound and is going out to Fair Oak early next month.

We manage him very carefully. No roadwork. We avoid hard ground like the plague and we keep his work varied to build overall strength and fitness.

Best of luck with your mare.
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Thanks :) my friend did suggest that it could be navicular. its something i dont know much about really! im glad yours came right in the end, hopefully there is hope for mine yet haha :)
 
Something I think would be worth doing if not already done is to have the leg scanned - my mare had a mild lameness where she showed mainly a difference in stride you could hear but not see and a reluctance to go forward when ridden. There was slight swelling round her fetlock joint but not massive and no heat or anything down the leg, not really any pain on palpation but when she was eventually scanned there was a hole in her deep digital flexor tendon (hind leg) about half the width of the tendon. The vet was extremly suprised to see the scan given her level of lameness so I would be scanning your horse to rule that sort of thing out.
Good luck
 
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