Noseband question - help please!!

[Zippydoodles]

Can anyone help me please - have a noseband question. (actually feel a bit stupid having to ask this ) What is the difference in action between a flash noseband and a grackle?? I have Zippy in a flash at the moment but it doesn't fit v. well. He is light to middle weight 15.1 and wears a cob size bridle but the cob noseband was too small and wouldn't do up. Got a full size noseband but is a bit big so it slides down when I do up the flash. Have punched extra holes but i now cant get it any tighter as have reached headpiece part of noseband. Could I try a grackle for same effect of keeping zippys mouth zipped shut?? I wondered if it might fit better as would sit further up his face.
Sorry for my ramblings

, all advice greatly appreciated

 

[scotsmare]

Why don't you just try a drop noseband??

 

[k1963]

Originally , the flash was used when a droppped noseband couldn't be ( eg - not to be used with a standing martingale , the drop that is ! )

The grakle asserts a bit of pressure on the nose ( I used to make them & they had a very lightweight piece of metal in the leather disc ) . It is more versatile than the drop , but more used for horses that cross their jaws , rather than open their mouths .

I'm sure someone will be somewhat clearer than me & hope all this makes sense

 

[Zippydoodles]

Never really seen many horses with drop nosebands so im not very familiar with them. Could I fit it with a dutch gag? (feel a total numpty having to ask this

)

 

[k1963]

I always used a drop on open mouthed horses , but you have to be careful with martingales . Don't feel a numpty , I stopped riding & making tack some years ago & never came across a Dutch Gag .

PS - Nosebands & bits go in & out of fashion & people were always telling me to ditch my horses drop noseband for a grakle when he didn't need one !

 

[kerilli]

drops are excellent, and correctly fitted (4 fingers width above top of nostril) they don't need to be tight... in fact, it's better if they aren't. if tight, many horses will try to open their mouth against the tightness... as we would, i guess! i fit mine with 1 finger's width in chin groove, and they work perfectly.

 

[flyingfeet]

And finally - my 2 pennies

Why are you shutting the mouth?

Are you using a single joint? If so consider swapping the bit, as its highly uncomfortable for the horse and shutting the mouth isn't solving the problem.

 

[Hippona]

[ QUOTE ]
And finally - my 2 pennies

Why are you shutting the mouth?

Are you using a single joint? If so consider swapping the bit, as its highly uncomfortable for the horse and shutting the mouth isn't solving the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto...hate this combo - tightly strapped mouth and single jointed bit digging into the roof of the mouth. If your horse is opening his mouth/trying to get the tongue over the bit then perhaps you may need to look at getting him more comfortable in his mouth? Say with a lozenge or even a straight bar?

 

[sidesaddlelady1]

Why do you think you need a flash noseband?

To be honest the only useful job for a flash strap is to fasten your sandwich case to the D-rings on your saddle.

Been riding for over 50 years and I've never met a horse yet who actually needed or benefitted from one. A number of instructors of my acquaintance actually insist that their pupils remove them before instruction begins and I would be rather worried about any instructor who recommended one.

 

[sidesaddlelady1]

Single joints are ok in a *JP bit where the two "arms" of the mouthpiece are slightly curved so that the joint doesn't jab the roof of the mouth.

My IDx doesn't like a straight or mullen mouth so is in a JP single jointed snaffle for everything except hunting.

(*JP= John Patterson)

 

[suzysparkle]

Flash nosebands were originally designed for those horses who 'needed' a drop and also a standing martingale. Personally I think that they are ineffective and must be uncomfortable as they squash the inner cheek onto the teeth. You also see a scary number of people (and I have to say there have been a few in 'Horse' magazine recently) that fit them way too low. The cavesson should be right up just under the cheekbone.
Basically, both flash and grackle serve to prevent a Horse from opening its mouth. A grackle is more effective, and also more comfortable than a flash (the high ring variety is anyway). A grackle sits higher up over the cheekbone and is meant to prevent crossing of the jaw. Drops are a much better option. They need to be correctly fitted and not tight - and are meant to encourage rather than force.
I think the biggest problem is these days almost every bridle you see comes with a flash noseband!! In fact, most Horses don't need them. I'd suggest pulling the flash strap off and seeing if you actually need one. The best thing is to find the right bit - one that means you don't need a noseband.

 

[Tnavas]

The Flash noseband was developed so that riders could use the drop AND also a standing martingale. The action though is a bit different as the line of the drop strap is different on a flash than it is on a drop noseband.

The grackle sits higher on the face with the top strap placed immediately below the projecting cheek bone. The top strap is done up snugly and then the bottom straps pulled down and also fitted snuggly - there is often a short strap at the back that joins the top and bottom straps together. All the straps are free moving but are joined together over the nose with a sheepskin pad. The Mexican sort of looks like a Grackle but is slightly different in looks and fitting. It has a ring to which the top straps are fitted and it sits above the projecting cheek bone accross the cheeks. The back strap drops to sit below the cheek bone, then the lower straps cross over the nose through loops in a pad similar to the Grackle - they then do up below the bit.

 

[Zippydoodles]

Thanks for all your advice so far everyone.
I have him in a flash as he opens his mouth and pokes his nose out whenever he doesn't feel like doing something (I've tried taking it off many times over the past 6 years and he hasn't changed). When I first got him he was really ill and in very poor condition. As I gradually built him up he became more lively and steadily stronger. I started him off in a flexi mouth straight bar bubble bit with the rein on the snaffle ring, then moving down to the bubble ring. After a few months had as much effect as a piece of cotton! So i tried him in a french link eggbut snaffle with curved bars (not sure if it was a JP tho) but this went much the same way as the first bit. My friend suggested trying a dutch gag (as he had worked nicely in the flexi bubble before he became too strong) and he seems to be happy in it. I school on the snaffle ring and hack out on the next ring down. When i'm riding he isn't fussy with his mouth, fighting my hands or anything to suggest he is uncomfortable in his mouth (i've asked people to watch me and they say he looks fine too) it's only when i take the flash strap off that he opens his mouth.
Would a d. gag with a lozenge or a straight bar perhaps be more comfy for him?
Sorry this is so long but if your going to give me your opinions you might as well have all the info.