NOT BONDING

[PiebaldHorse]

My friend purchased a labrador/german shepherd pup about 6 months back, she was 6 months old then. She has been working with him every day and trying to bond but the dog just doesnt want to know!

When she steps into the garden, the dog goes running, shes never ever hit the dog (shes had dogs before and I know what she is like) and she does nothing but adore this dog.

She has been training and training it, takes it out twice a day, but she said there is no bond between her and the dog and she feels depressed about it all.

She bought it a large kennel and lots of toys, but it just runs about the garden, or lies outside. When it rains it refuses to go into the kennel and when she brings it inside it still refuses to come near her.

When she goes near it, it will pee. The vet says that its because she is the one being strict with it, as it doesnt pee when anyone else comes near it.

I know she has lost heart, she is in her 40s and has had dogs all her life, and has trained them herself. However this dog just doesnt want to know!

 

[TGM]

What methods is she using to train it

Sounds like it would be a prime candidate for clicker training - such a nervous dog needs to be trained with positive reinforcement only.

 

[KJJ]

Oh how sad

I have no advice as I'm sure having owned dogs all her life she knows every trick!!

How about treats? Will it take treats from her? Get to it through it's belly!!

Hope it improves for her... this is the one thing I fear when I get my puppy next month... I want it to bond with me!!

 

[PiebaldHorse]

This woman is my neighbour and I love picking up tricks from her, she said in all her life she has never had a dog that she hasnt bonded with, so I know she is taking this to heart.

She told me she only gives it treats when it does something good. She amazes me as she had it trained inside 3 days! Also it had never walked on a lead before, and she has it walking perfect now.

I know she works from home, she leaves the back door open so the dog can walk in and out. Its like the dog has no sense! If it buckets down, it stands outside, during the recent storm, I noticed that she was outside trying to catch it to bring it in. But it was having none of it.

The dog apparently came from a breeder who was going to drown it. She said that she will never ever get from a breeder again. Shes always gone and took the older dogs on from pounds.

All its life it was locked up in a shed, only taken out to go walks.

Have to give her, her dues. She isnt giving up

 

[Greyhound]

Have you suggested that she reads the Jan Fennel book, very good with lots of advice.

The dog sounds as if he is under pressure because he thinks he has to be leader, JF is very good at talking through body language etc...

Gh

 

[KJJ]

Probably why the poor thing doesn't want to go into a kennel.. incase she gets shut in

Bless - I'm sure it'll all come right if your friend perservers.... it sounds like she has an insecure doggy who's stubborn and doesn't wnat to let her guard down.

 

[Sooty]

Are you getting a puppy KJJ?

I never knew...

From what you have said I am sure you will make an excellent owner and will have no problems, and you seem willing to accept advice which is the best thing any owner can do.

 

[KJJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you getting a puppy KJJ?

I never knew...

From what you have said I am sure you will make an excellent owner and will have no problems, and you seem willing to accept advice which is the best thing any owner can do.

[/ QUOTE ]LOL Awww thanks Sooty... I'm not sure I believe you that you didn't know... LOL - I've mentioned it enough!!

I am willing to listen to EVERYONE's advice/points of view etc.. I think I'll need it...

I'm so excited I have everything ready just wat to collect the puupy NOW!!!

 

[Bess]

"All its life it was locked up in a shed, only taken out to go walks."

A friend of mine has taken on a dog that sounds exactly like this one. Her dog was kept on its own in a room for nearly a year, only let out into the garden, then back to the room again. My friend's dog (a labrador) was very 'shut down', like he was autistic, he didn't know how to be friendly, he just ignored everybody.

She does have two other dogs though and he gets on well with them. He is getting a bit more responsive but is a bit of a pest on walks, he ignores her and will just run off when he feels like it. I think his development as a 'normal' dog was very damaged by his earlier life and it sounds like your neighbour's dog is the same.

 

[TGM]

I suspect part of the problem stems from its earlier background where it has never learned that people are pleasant to be with. Because it has missed out on this important part of its development, training it to walk on a lead is a bit like getting a nursery school child to study for A levels!

Do you know what the vet meant by the owner being 'strict' with it? With an unsocialised dog like that even a raised voice or a tug on the collar could be enough to make it scared of the handler.

If it was mine I think I would abandon formal training like lead walking and go right back to basics and just concentrate on teaching the dog to enjoy being with its owner. Food is probably the best way to do that and I would break up the dogs normal diet into many small portions a day, only to be fed when the dog approaches the owner.

 

[prose]

Make no mistake -- the original owner is in no way shape or form a breeder. That dog probably suffered some kind of abuse, a complete lack of socialisation and god only knows how young it was when it was separated from its mother.

I would echo the thoughts on clicker training; avoid using harsh tones, too. Another idea might be to try something like Bach Rescue Remedy, added to the dog's water, to soothe the poor thing a little.

 

[Basset]

Poor dog doesnt sound like a happy pup, the thing that comes across to me is that its constantly trained, maybe it just needs to have some fun and chill a bit. Maybe she could play train with it rather than the dog feeling under pressure. If its a nervous dog do much pressure from training will just make it worse, it could be every time she goes near the dog it thinks training. These are just ideas and whats come across imo from the post.
Hope it works out.

 

[Triskar]

Tell her to get the Karen Pryor book Don't Shoot the Dog or others of her clicker training books. then go right back to basics like the dog was just a puppy and reinforce any little steps in the right direction. Tell her not to get despondent - the dog will come round if she is patient, but she mustn't be strict with it unless he does something dangerous, like going to bite. If she ignores the behaviour she doesn't want, and encourages any steps towards the behaviour she does want, the dog will learn and will then suddenly come on in leaps and bounds. The clicker sort of gives a way for the dog to understand what it is you want - at the moment he doesn't understand at all and he is frightened and confused. Also, she could try changing her perfume/soap etc - maybe the dog associates her with someone in his past?

 

[PiebaldHorse]

Was talking to her this morning, and she said she brought the dog in last night, all they did was sat and played. She said the vet meant strict, as in her not letting it off with anything from the start. Its never seemed to have been told off before.

She really loves this dogs to bits, but I think what is getting her is maybe the dog isnt happy with her.

She said she is for calling in a dog behaviourist to see if they could help her. The dog is really sweet, a very good natured dog.

My friend has worked with her loads over the last 6 months, she cants see a difference, but I remember when that dog arrived she couldnt walk it, it knew no commands etc.

Now it walks on the lead, it sits, gives the paw, lies down, it now knows what a toy is etc. She has also socialised it really well, it can be introduced to strange dogs without showing signs of agression!!

Ive told her that I think the bonding will come in time, its still pretty much a puppy yet

 

[Triskar]

The good thing about clicker training is that you're learning together, so I think that it does help in forging a bond. I do hope she perseveres with the dog - after such a bad start in life it's nice that he's found someone so understanding and patient.

 

[PiebaldHorse]

She doesnt like the clicker training, she said that shes never used it in all the years she trained her dogs

 

[TGM]

Oh dear - she doesn't sound very open-minded! Everybody can always learn something new, however many years of experience they have.

A friend of mine has trained dogs professionally for many years, initially using 'traditional' methods. She also trains animals for film work and this is how she first heard about clicker training and saw the results other trainers were having with the method. So she gave it a try and was amazed how effective it is and uses it on all her animals now, including the dogs.

Shame your friend won't consider trying it, as it sounds like it could be the perfect method for a dog like hers.

 

[PiebaldHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh dear - she doesn't sound very open-minded!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the fact she is working with the dog and not wanting to ship it to a new home, proves she is being open minded. Its not really about the dogs obedience, its about the fact they arent bonding.

She does come to her when she is out, and on her good days she comes to her in the garden for a belly rub. The dog will sit, lie down, give paw etc all on command.

Its like its saying "This is my garden, I do as I please".

The dog has come a long way since she got it, it used to walk about with its tail between its legs, went crazy when a collar was put on it and even more crazy when she dare tried to walk it!

Shes looked after some lovely dogs over the years, weve been neighbours for 5 years now, and I know if I ever go away she will care for my lot and vice versa.

 

[TGM]

I'm sure she is a lovely lady with the dogs best intentions at heart, but just sounds as if she is a bit set in her ways. Although her methods have made the dog obedient, they also seem to have made the dog fearful of her as well. Whereas with a positive reinforcement method like clicker training the dog can learn to be obedient AND find it pleasant to be with the handler all at the same time!

Clicker training can be used for more than just obedience work - she can actually use it to reinforce the bonding process. For example, every time the dog approaches her, click and treat. Soon the dog learns that to be close to the owner is a pleasant and rewarding activity

There is some good information about clicker training here:

http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/ccp51/cc/dog-training/clicker-training.shtml

If she is really adverse to use a clicker, then she can just reward the dog with food when it approaches her. However, the clicker system is more versatile if you wish to apply it to a whole range of training activities.

 

[PiebaldHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Although her methods have made the dog obedient, they also seem to have made the dog fearful of her as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

The dog has always been this way, however beforehand it would have wet itself if anyone came near it.

Its ok out in the street etc, but if anyone dare come near it in its garden etc, it would run a mile.

To me its about gaining the dogs trust and going from there, she doesnt know the way the dog was treated beforehand, but it certainly wasnt trained.

 

[TGM]

Obviously the dogs background is the main cause of its fearfulness, but I suspect the way the method of training (which may be fine for a well-adjusted dog) has not made it easy for the dog to lose its fear of people and particularly the owner. You know the lady, however, and I don't so I can only judge from what you have written. For example, this sentence:

[ QUOTE ]
When she goes near it, it will pee. The vet says that its because she is the one being strict with it, as it doesnt pee when anyone else comes near it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I feel that with a dog from such a bad background, the last thing you need to do with it is 'be strict' even if that is only a raised voice. It is quite possible to train it to sit, walk on lead etc without 'being strict' if you use positive reinforcement ie reward the good behaviour.

I do wish your friend the best of luck with her dog and hope she finds a way to bond with it.

 

[PiebaldHorse]

Yeah but i later said that being strict meant that she doesnt let her off with anything.

This woman is a good friend and I know that she would never raise her hand to any pet, my own dogs go crazy when they hear her coming out of the house.

IMO the dog has issues being in a yard, as its fine out and about.

She has never raised her voice to this dog, infact she told me off for telling mine off lol

 

[TGM]

I never even implied that she had hit the dog in anyway! However, I notice in another of your posts in this thread you do say 'the dog has never been told off before' which implies she has 'told it off', so I wonder how she did this if she doesn't raise her voice. I'm not trying to suggest that this lady is unkind at all, just that perhaps she has inadvertantly made the dog a little scared of her.

Anyway, I'm sure if she is as experienced as you say she will find a way to bond with her dog, even if she doesn't want to contemplate methods that she has not used before.

 

[PiebaldHorse]

No she deepens her voice or ignores it if it misbehaves.

She truely cares for this dog as I hear her talking to it all the time. On the dogs good days it comes up and lies with her when she sits on her doorstep.

She trained my lot, and picked up a few tips myself.

I guess different people find different methods of training effective.

Ive actually never met anyone who used the clicker method, not saying its not used, and im sure its just as good, how does it work then?

 

[TGM]

[ QUOTE ]
No she deepens her voice or ignores it if it misbehaves.

[/ QUOTE ] Well personally I would stick to the ignoring rather than deepening the voice until such time as the dog is more confident.

[ QUOTE ]
On the dogs good days it comes up and lies with her when she sits on her doorstep.

[/ QUOTE ] When it does that she could reinforce the behaviour with a small food treat.

[ QUOTE ]
Ive actually never met anyone who used the clicker method, not saying its not used, and im sure its just as good, how does it work then?

[/ QUOTE ] Basically it works by rewarding the required behaviour (or even any attempt towards the required behaviour) and ignoring the undesirable ones. This is why it is good for nervous dogs as there is no need to reprimand the dog in anyway. The reward is usually in the form of a food treat. The initial training aims to teach the dog to link the click with the treat, so the click becomes a sort of 'yes that's right' signal. The advantage of using the clicker as opposed to just food is because it is much easier to make the click at the exact moment the dog performs the desired behaviour.

One common misconception is that people think that you always have to have a clicker and treats on you - but once the behaviour is thoroughly learnt you don't have to treat all the time.

I haven't got time to go into great detail but the link I posted above is good, as is this one:

http://clickertraining.com/training/clic...em=what_is_ct_s

A lot of trainers over here are changing over to clicker methods because they find them very effective. Our own puppy was clicker-trained and she is a delight to own and more focused on me than any other dog I have had. We don't need to use the clicker and treats for daily established stuff like sitting, heeling, recall - I just purely use it if I want to teach her something new.

I do hope you read the links and find something useful in them!