Not enjoying our walks anymore..

[Noodles_3]

I have a lovely border collie who is honestly my world, I love her to bits! She was originally my step dads mums dog who only had her 6 months before she sadly passed away. My step dads mum got her from a rescue centre and all they really knew was that she had been found as a stray but was obviously someone's dog as she new all the basic training aids.

Anyway that's just a little background information. So Mollie is fantastic in the house, you don't hear a peep from her, she obeys commands and is a joy to own. Such a loving little soul but a wimp. You have to gain her trust as she is very nervous and gets scared, especially of men. Having said this she will come round and then be like a little loving puppy and not leave you alone!

On walks she is a different story. I am obviously not going to stop walking her because she needs the exercise but I am getting fed up of her behaviour she turns into a different dog. She will NOT listen to anything I say, it's like I don't exist. Yet if we were at home she would be perfect! She is not a nasty dog but when we see other dog walkers, Mollie will go ballistic barking at them, jumping about 10 foot in the air (slight exaggeration but you get the picture) cue dog walkers giving me horrible looks because Mollie has set their dogs off!

She also tries to jump at cars whilst on the lead when they drive past (more so at night) and she pulls like hell no matter what we put her in. I currently walk her in like a rope slip lead, the proper name has escaped my memory! She also walks very hunched back, sometimes with her tail between her legs. Despite this she LOVES her walks! I think she is a very anxious dog but I just need help controlling her a bit better when we meet other dogs on walks. It's not just Embarrasing but making me miserable walking her because we bump into every dog walker going! I know it's not her fault but I want to try understand her better and help her, unless of course this is just the sort of dog she is.

Would you recommend I take her to dog training classes or are there any activities I can try with her? She isn't too fussed on treats, though she loves toys but nothing can grasp her attention when there is another dog. She won't even sit when we are on walks, everything she knows goes out the window! Her recall is pretty terrible to.

I wouldn't change her for the world and she has her every needs catered for, I just want advice if anyone knows any tips please.

Thank you

 

[Mince Pie]

Find whatever it is she goes absolutely mental for (food/ball etc) and then save it only for walks. Then when out walking keep an eye out for her triggers and, before she's had a chance to notice it and go beserk, take whatever it is out and get her focused on you. A friend of mine had a problem after her lab was attacked - she used this method and now the dog actively looks for the food as soon as another dog appears, rather than trying to eat it!

I would also say that dog training classes are a good idea as well

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yep, go training and do lots of focus work, oh and read this, first posted by Goya. Might help you understand your girl a bit better
You can still train her using food but use some of her daily allowance. Have lost count of the number of people who come training expecting their dogs to track or do obedience for food...when they've already had a nice big breakfast before they came to training - work her when she is hungry.
ETA - When using a toy, don't let her have free access to it, make it a very special toy that she only ever gets when training or out on a walk. Heighten its value.

http://www.agilitynet.co.uk/training/bordercollie_suekitchen_leewindeatt.html

Also, cars with headlights in the dark, shining into a dog's eyes at their head height, are SCARY for sensitive dogs.

You might try something else apart from a slip lead, she might be resisting the pressure, it's essentially a noose and she might be trying to escape from the tightening sensation. Also make sure you have it on the right way around, it's a common mistake, one way the pressure comes off when the dog starts pulling, the other way, the pressure stays on.
Don't get me wrong, I use them, I like them, but they don't suit all dogs and they are essentially the same as using a choke chain (made of rope), which are also frequently used upside down.

Also, collies are very sensitive dogs and she is probably soaking up all your anxiety and misery down the lead, try to chill out.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Bit like mine, then! I had similar issues mine and he's still awful on any lead/harness/gadget.

I got mine used to playing with a toy at home, playing with him, reward with toy and massive fuss. Outside, that is the only toy that was used and now he does retrievals, searching, fetch etc. I go to one field (different one for training) Can you try that? Mine heels as soon as we hit the field cos he knows the toy is coming out.

I've taught the leave it command for ignoring other dogs. Wave the toy at her, she should ignore the other dog because you and the toy are far more exciting. keep her on a longline so she has to respond to commands eg come etc.

Maybe try agility with her: is she bored? (sorry!)

 

[piebaldsparkle]

She sounds like she has been poorly (if at all) socialised, so some carefully chosen dog classes (or maybe some one on one with a trainer, who has their own dogs for some well controlled meets), would be a good idea.

Also teach her to 'watch' or 'look' at you (this will help focus her away from other things). Clicker training could help here.

Have you thought of trying some agility or flyball, to a) give you more control and b) occupy her mind and give her a job.

Good luck, with time and support you will get there.

 

[stargirl88]

When you say she doesn't listen to you - are you talking about ALL the time you are out and about walking, or just when she spots something she reacts too?

It's difficult to say - but I would start back with the basics focus on getting her attention in the house (I know you said she is good) - but put it on cue. Sounds really basic, but then you start using that cue in the garden/outside the house/before you release her to wander around in the park. I have so many people say to me that their dog is a superstar in the house, and crap at training, but that's because the house ins the only place they train you just need to build up the level of distractions.

I wouldn't keep her in or away from other dogs, quite the opposite, but give her space around them, if you see on approaching in the distance, cross the road or curve widely around them (wide enough so that she doesn't feel the need to go bonkers). Reward her when she's remained calm, if she kicks off, some say correct, others say ignore.... I tend not to say anything unless I've seen the dog

Also think about you as the handler - are you anticipating her reaction? she's not stupid, she will pick up on this. You also need to be confident in yourself, and take the lead, or nothing will work!

Training classes may well benefit her - but just think about what the training class offers - I'd be looking for one outdoors, so there is plenty of space for you to walk around the other dogs at a suitable distance so that she's comfortable. If you ring around your local classes, the trainers should give you an indication of whether your dog would be alright there. TBH about 75% of the dogs that come to our classes are their for the socialisation, even if we just have a session on doing heelwork and down-stays, it's the focus that the dogs have on YOU, the owner, while amongst other strange dogs that's the aim. The trainer should also give you exercises do to, to help her and regain her focus, and actually can probably help you out better than a tired exhausted waffler in a forum

 

[Noodles_3]

Thank you for the advice! I always feel cruel with the slip lead because she pulls that much she makes panting noises and I'm like well if you slowed down Mols! She does eventually settle in this and walks very nicely by my side, of course until we meet another dog I find her better to control in it though, I can easily get her back to me when she goes to pull towards another dog, she doesn't quite do so many acrobat movements haha!

Broke_but_happy - she absolutely loves her toys, especially balls! She will honestly play it for hours so I do feel this is going to be the thing I bribe her with. That's a good idea however she loves to just lay with her ball at home or play in the garden by herself with one. I'd feel mean taking it off her and saving it only for walks! Then again I am open to all options and if it works - bonus!

Oh I really do think she can sense my anxiety because i get the impression she's thinking that I'm worried so she should be. It sounds daft but I have to put my head phones in when I'm walking her, takes my mind off thinking about situations too much. I feel so stupid that walking my dog makes me feel nervous! It's so silly.

Thank you for the link, I will have a read of that now. There are dog classes in my area so I think i should maybe look into this. I think she would love it too. I'd love to do all the agility stuff with her one day, I know she's got it in her she's very intelligent and I have learnt her tricks at home but on a walk she doesn't want to know or seems to forget what simple things mean.

God, I must stop babbling on I didn't realise the time haha!

Really appreciate the advice, thanks.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I find her better to control in it though, I can easily get her back to me when she goes to pull towards another dog, she doesn't quite do so many acrobat movements haha!
So she sees another dog, goes mad, you get a bit apprehensive, apply pressure, something constricts around her neck and you pull her back to your side - think about what message that is sending her - rather, before she even locks on to the other dog, engage her, make it a positive experience.

She absolutely loves her toys, especially balls! She will honestly play it for hours so I do feel this is going to be the thing I bribe her with. That's a good idea however she loves to just lay with her ball at home or play in the garden by herself with one. I'd feel mean taking it off her and saving it only for walks! Then again I am open to all options and if it works - bonus!
I wouldn't let her have free play with balls then, don't let her entertain herself and play with a ball on her own, YOU be the entertainer and the source of the entertainment, YOU instigate the fun game - you keep the ball and you take it out and play with her and get her to pay attention. You are currently a bystander in her life.
She won't die if she doesn't have access to a ball all the time. Give her something else like a long-lasting chew or Kong to occupy her.

 

[Noodles_3]

I do think she has been quite poorly socialised, I also think I'm to blame as we don't go walking with other dogs, just me and her! Though my dog goes mental at other dogs, she is not aggressive and I don't think she would attack them. I think it's a mixture of anxiety and excitement! I introduced her to my friends dog and they hit it off and walking with another dog gave Mollie a lot of confidence and it was the best she's been. Sadly it's quite hard to get someone to walk their dog with me but I think it would help!

She does need to socialise more, I just feel threatened when she barks at other dogs, not because I don't trust what My dog will do, more what the other dog will do when she has set them off! Barking always sounds more worse than it probably is I guess.....

Stargirl88 - Well besides the house, mainly ALL the time on a walk she does not listen! We can be walking along nicely and I always try get her to sit at a roadside before we cross and although she stops and will actually listen to me asking her to stand I then ask her to sit and she just stands there so I keep asking and gently push on her bum (not hard!) just indicating what I want her to do then she will usually do it. She is getting slightly better getting past dogs but that's because I have more control in her lead as it probably tightens around her neck when she goes to pull which brings her back and she will walk for me.

I do think she is picking up on my nerves, she is very intelligent!

I think tomorrow I will start ringing about dog classes, after seeing some replies I do think it's to do with how she hasn't been socialised. That's her main problem anyway x

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also, she is not 'forgetting everything she knows' - its as mentioned, training is only happening at home and the stress of all the scary things that happen on her walk outweigh anything that happens in her warm cosy familiar house.

 

[Noodles_3]

I find her better to control in it though, I can easily get her back to me when she goes to pull towards another dog, she doesn't quite do so many acrobat movements haha!
So she sees another dog, goes mad, you get a bit apprehensive, apply pressure, something constricts around her neck and you pull her back to your side - think about what message that is sending her - rather, before she even locks on to the other dog, engage her, make it a positive experience.

She absolutely loves her toys, especially balls! She will honestly play it for hours so I do feel this is going to be the thing I bribe her with. That's a good idea however she loves to just lay with her ball at home or play in the garden by herself with one. I'd feel mean taking it off her and saving it only for walks! Then again I am open to all options and if it works - bonus!
I wouldn't let her have free play with balls then, don't let her entertain herself and play with a ball on her own, YOU be the entertainer and the source of the entertainment, YOU instigate the fun game - you keep the ball and you take it out and play with her and get her to pay attention. You are currently a bystander in her life.
She won't die if she doesn't have access to a ball all the time. Give her something else like a long-lasting chew or Kong to occupy her.

Thank you, I didn't see it like that! I can see where I am going wrong. It's like I panic when she reacts and I am obviously suffocating her and making her feel scared. I will try engaging her beforehand. If she does see the other dog and react, how would you suggest handling her please?

Many thanks

 

[Noodles_3]

P.s I am aware I probably sound so dilly but I just want to do things right for my dog!

 

[Noodles_3]

This is my lovely girl! Hope this works...

Slight over load sorry

 

[stargirl88]

You don't sound stupid - I think many people in the dog part of this forum have been in your shoes at some point good luck finding a club!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Very shiny!
Not silly at all, you should have seen some of my wibbly posts when my older dog was confounding me

I would try and keep everything positive and lighthearted and upbeat, if you have to gad about like an idiot for a while, do it, take all the pressure off and make yourself a fun person to be around, be confident and offer her a bit of security.
Right, off to bed, finally

 

[Noodles_3]

Aww thanks guys! She's my first dog I've owned and with her being scatty I've been a bit like, what do I do!!

We will get there. Some brilliant advice for me to take on board and that link about border collies described mine to a tee!

 

[Goya]

Cayla and others have given brilliant advice. Do read the article (Cayla gave the link) It really helps you understand collies.
Have you tried using a Cannicollar ( I think that is the correct name) It is like a halti, but fits and doesn't slip over the eyes etc. it comes into effect when the dog pulls, the dog is pulling against itself. When the dog stops pulling it loosens.
I'm not brilliant at explaining but it really worked for my rescue BC who wasn't socialised, giving me control.
I rarely use it now as he has learned.

I'd also encourage you to join an agility/flyball club. They really help with socialisation.

 

[RockinRudolph]

I'm having problems with my collie too - he is fine with other dogs, but pulls on the lead and is terrible with cars (better when cars are passing us from behind rather than coming towards us). We have 2 dogs, the other has never been a problem on the lead. Last night I took the collie out on his own, with half his dinner in my pocket. He was far calmer than he normally is and focused on me so much more than usual. Still appears to go deaf when cars are about (he becomes totally fixated on the car, will often lie down and try to nip it as it goes past, and sometimes will creep along the pavement as if he's stalking/herding them). I have tried a halti (he pulls like a train even when there aren't any cars about) but he hates it, and I can't get him to walk round the house in it (he will freeze and then desperately try to get it off). Recall is brilliant, obedient etc off the lead but can be hard work on the lead (not all the time I hasten to add). So I plan to continue what I tried last night, and maybe walk him without the other dog for a while and see if we can get it sorted.

He's 7 months old so we can't start agility yet but plan to in the summer.

I will also do more training outside of the house as others have suggested. Having my arm pulled off isn't fun and is starting to ruin our walks too!

 

[Goya]

Also don't forget to give loads of praise when they do something correct,however small.
I ignore the poor behaviour but praise when they do what is asked. Positive reinforcement has really worked with my boy who was very nervous and not socialised.
He loves being told he's a very clever boy.
The Canny Collar is much better than a halti imo. They still try to rub it off at first but perservere and they get used to it.

 

[piebaldsparkle]

So I plan to continue what I tried last night, and maybe walk him without the other dog for a while and see if we can get it sorted.

Good plan, it often helps to train without 'the pack'! It's often the easier option to exercise all your dogs together, but they often really benefit, from solo training.

 

[Noodles_3]

Thanks for all the help guys, she's not had her ball or tea yet and I'm going to take her out soon! Will take a couple of her favourite biscuits and her squeaky toy to see if I can grab her attention with these!

Ill have to google that canny collar, not heard of it before! I do need something she won't get off easily as when she goes, boy does she go! Unfortunately we don't have many grassy areas around my end so we are near roads and it could be a disaster.

Rockafella - Your dog sounds very much like mine! It seems to be that almost every border collie has these similarities! I don't feel so alone now my dog is better with traffic coming from behind her too, rather than in front. I would say she is better with traffic now than other things. Now I'm thinking about it she has improved slightly, I just haven't worked on it enough. Like if I want her to go my way and say come on she will do it.
Aww at least you can train him better whilst he is a puppy! Good luck with him he sounds adorable

 

[piebaldsparkle]

Canny collars are a kind of head halter - http://www.cannydogcollar.co.uk/?gclid=COD8ssnyzLQCFbMbtAoddQkAdA

Use it with either a second lead to a collar (incase she slips the headcollar) or with a link betwwen the two as an emergency back up!

I have never used one as use a half choke/martingale collar on my JRT as he slips flat collars unless they are done up so tight they strangle him!

http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=Q9nlULOWCNKT0QXz-4HYBQ&ved=0CEUQ8wIwAA

 

[Goya]

Just a point---does she ever get the chance to run free?My boy has a free run every day. I have to go in the car to different places to find somewhere suitable

 

[NeverSayNever]

Thanks for all the help guys, she's not had her ball or tea yet and I'm going to take her out soon! Will take a couple of her favourite biscuits and her squeaky toy to see if I can grab her attention with these!

Ill have to google that canny collar, not heard of it before! I do need something she won't get off easily as when she goes, boy does she go! Unfortunately we don't have many grassy areas around my end so we are near roads and it could be a disaster.

Rockafella - Your dog sounds very much like mine! It seems to be that almost every border collie has these similarities! I don't feel so alone now my dog is better with traffic coming from behind her too, rather than in front. I would say she is better with traffic now than other things. Now I'm thinking about it she has improved slightly, I just haven't worked on it enough. Like if I want her to go my way and say come on she will do it.
Aww at least you can train him better whilst he is a puppy! Good luck with him he sounds adorable

tbf only one of the 8 I have had has been like this - and she is a pain in the ass with it. Oh yes, a couple of the others showed an inkling for going after cars out on walks as pups but were easily trained out of it with treats & toys. However if you get one that is really and truly hard wired then its not that easy.
Id suggest getting 1:1 training from someone who really knows about collies if training with treats and toys doesnt work. I have worked and worked and worked with my girl and I dont think she will ever be 100% - it is my role to keep her safe. I walk her away from any traffic and she has a double ended lead on a canny collar type headcollar with one end on her collar, so that God forbid she did one her spectacular backflips and got out of the headcollar, Id still have hold of her. With collies like this it is often not the chase instinct as people assume - but the noise they dont like and they are actually trying to make it go away by chasing it off.

 

[ladyt25]

Definitely take her to some training classes. My Molly (who I got as a resuce about a year ago aged 9 mths) was quite similar and VERY reactive to other dogs when on a lead - the reason being she's scared and acting all aggressive gets the other dogs to leave her alone. This tactic worked and hence she continued!

I took her on a 10 week training course with younger dogs so they were less threatening. I had already found she is actually ok with other dogs when she's off the lead (although she went through a phase of rushing up to others barking!). she loves to run and hunt for squirrels so she does go off lead and, although she can have selective hearing sometimes she never goes far away and always comes back (sometimes just takes a while if squirrels are about!!).

She is so much improved although still is and probably still always be a bit reactive with some dogs when on lead. She has issues with Labs and Jack Russells more than other dogs but again, off lead it's not a problem, she can get out of their way if she wants.

Keep working with her, get advice, it will come honestly it will.

 

[Noodles_3]

Just a point---does she ever get the chance to run free?My boy has a free run every day. I have to go in the car to different places to find somewhere suitable

Yes she does, I take her to a closed in area about a 10 minute drive away from me as it is safer here whilst I am working on her recall which is poor! Because I've lost confidence I've been going at times when I know people don't really walk their dogs. However I should be going when people are walking their dogs I guess to get her used to it because she has been poorly socialised. I can't go there everyday though and the field right near me is right beside a road with no fencing and honestly I know I shouldn't be so over protective but when she's in the mode were she wants to run and not come back to recall, she has darted across the roads and it makes me feel sick, my heart is in my mouth. I need her to be safe and listen to me before she goes running off like this. She doesn't run in fear it's just because she loves being out and if something gets her eye, for instance another dog she will just bolt!

When I don't let her off the leash I take her on a long lunge line so she has her freedom and does get a run. I throw sticks and play with her and walk her for a long time when she's not off the leash to ensure she is getting the right exercise still.

Neverseensanta - Haha, yes I know which spectacular backflips you are talking about! They are very good escape artists when they want to be. I have read a lot about collies that have similiar traits to mine but I do think unfortunately she is going to be one of those dogs that it may take her slightly longer to learn. I don't even know her age, she looks youthful and is full of herself. The vet estimates about 7 but who knows. I wish I knew my dogs history.

Ladyt25 - thank you for the encouragement I hope we will. Sometimes we have good and bad days. Today she was excellent, no chasing cars and we was practising some of the basic aids. She wasn't interested in having a treat though, too much fun going on to be eating! (Wish I had that attitude )

I have decided that the way forward for my dog is training. 1-1 sounds perfect, I need someone who will give me and her confidence. I don't feel I could completely make her into a perfectly obedient dog myself, though I can help towards it. I think training is the way for us to go, I'd love to try her at dog agility and fly ball too. Mollie would love it I'm sure!

 

[Adopter]

My border collie is the same, he came from a rescue and had been inthe kennels for over 12 months when two previous homes returned him. He is wonderful in the house, lovely with people, children, attentive and loving. Travels well in the car and is quite calm. He mixes well in a group with the other dogs who belong to other family members.

Outside he is a totally different dog, will not respond or come to recall, he is very reactive to noise, even chases areoplanes in the sky, chases cars given a chance.

He spins on the lead at other dogs you meet on a walk Is just totally unreliable, so we just have to always have him on a lead away from home., we do use a training recall lead to work on his recall in our field. He has been going to training classes for 12 months now, and it has helped with his social skills with other dogs, but not cured it.

I think he will be work in progress for some time yet, possibly years. It is a dilema as wel to decide is it better to walk in quiet places where we will not meet other people, or decide he needs to learn how to behave !!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck, it is not always easy, but it is rewarding when you take a step forward.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Guys it's not a matter of "deciding" whether to "behave", they are not "naughty" dogs who are "forgetting" their training it's a matter of genetics and it is really, really hard to fight with genetics - they're genetically inclined to behave in this way and the people who get the best out of dogs like this are the ones who use/manipulate the dog's drive and focus into another activity to 'divert' away from the stressful situations or "hide" the stressy behaviour.

The common themes through all these posts are dogs who are great at home (familiar, secure, the cues never change) and outside (noise, activity, sudden activity, strange people and dogs) and you're applying human logic to a dog, which has been bred for generations to react in this way to these things - please read the link posted if you haven't done already.

 

[Adopter]

Just want to say that borders are to me the best dogs, my current one is the eighth rescue border collie in a long line over 40 years, and only the second who is so reactive to noise and movement and hard to train, so on balance would not like anyone reading these posts to be put off border collies! Most of mine have been very keen to learn and responded well to training.

Current dog is 5 next month, and most of his life up to now has been in difficult circumstances, the rescure were very honest with us before we took him on, and as I live a long way off a road our dog is able to run free in our large garden and we have found this helps him be less worked up.

 

[Noodles_3]

Wow adopter do you have my dogs long lost sibling?! They really do sound identical.
It's a shame about the recall, that's what my dog is like. Sometimes you have to do whats safest for you, your dog and other people at the time. I hate not letting her off the lead everyday because I know she's a dog who loves to run and play! I will attach her lunge line when we are on the field near us, near the road and other dogs so at least she gets to 'explore' and have a run and can play and she can still fetch. Just gives me that bit of security whilst her recall is poor. I have people telling me to just let her off the lead! Yes I want to, I desperately do but I know my dog best and I KNOW she doesnt pay attention to her safety and will run across the road. I don't want that to happen. I'd rather do it the way I'm doing and try my best to train her on her recall then we can have loads of fun off the leash, hopefully without to much of a worry!

Like people have said it depends on the dog. Mollie isn't straight forward and having receiving excellent replies on her I do think training is the best for me and her! I wish you all the best with your dog, they are amazing! My favourite breed to but then I am biased lol.

CaveCaneM - you are right in what you say and thank you for that article, it really helps you understand your border collie!