Not enough of a defensive seat? or

Foxford

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Oh well, at least the water looks nice and clean!

Won't comment on position as I doubt I would have done much better. :p did squirm a bit at all that dangly leatherwork though, eek!
 

Mike007

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I couldnt do it either , but I am concerned that the rider in question gets jocked off the saddle by the unexpected. It doesnt happen often as the horse is brilliant(but quirky) and the rider is pretty agile. But it happens enough to make me wonder about possibly shorter stirrups and a bit more of a defensive seat. Hence I am seeking peoples thoughts.
 

Foxford

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Hmm, I suppose on entry into the water (after the drop) the riders upper body is not as far back as I would expect and the length of rein is on the short side. Rider seems quite tall with long legs so its possible the saddle/bp could be hindering the ability to lean back enough? Just a thought! :)

Further to my ramblings above I don't think the stirrups could go up much more as the knee is right at the front of the knee roll already.
 

siennamum

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I think I couldn't ride round the course myself - so not qualified to comment.

Love that the horse is cheerfully having a sniff and mooch round the water at the end, both look bemused and half relieved to have a cooling splash, and that the fence judge appears to be laughing....... I wonder if the rider swore, I bet she did.
 

millitiger

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That sequence seems to be missing quite a key moment of whatever went wrong between photo 4 and photo 5- without that I don't think anyone can possibly comment on whether the rider is to blame.

I would say she looks absolutely fine and in balance in photo 4 of the sequence so wouldn't instantly be jumping to blame her position or security for the fall- her lower leg is nicely underneath her, her head is up and looking ahead, she has maintained contact with the horse's mouth without pulling him about etc.
 

Fourlegsgood

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I couldnt do it either , but I am concerned that the rider in question gets jocked off the saddle by the unexpected. It doesnt happen often as the horse is brilliant(but quirky) and the rider is pretty agile. But it happens enough to make me wonder about possibly shorter stirrups and a bit more of a defensive seat. Hence I am seeking peoples thoughts.

Compare her position and rein length to the next rider on image "Image: 1303071-barb-13-03229b".(just click on through the sequence)

It was probably unfortunate for her but I'm always one for self preservation and a little bit of legs forward, body back and slip the reins can't be a bad thing on any drop fence never mind a drop into water where the actual landing surface is invisible.
 

khalswitz

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Like millitiger said, we cant see exactly what happened. Looks from the next shot like he actually fell, which wouldn't be fun to sit after a drop into water. Her position doesn't look bad, could sit back a little and have the reins a little longer (could have been pulled out of the saddle by these?), but nothing I would have guessed would be to blame for that fall!

I'm pretty good at sticking horse falls - had a couple of crackers, including one going down a 40degree angle hill!!! However, I do sit pretty far back (to the detriment of my drop fences and coffins tbh), and have a very bad habit of letting the rein slip when I feel the horse going down. Not ideal as it doesn't give the horse any help whatsoever, but does let me just stick with them rather than get pulled out the saddle. So, there are pros and cons to whatever way you ride!
 

kerilli

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tbh the water there catches out quite a few every year. the sequence of Wiggy's fall (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...340.1073741834.467724236610043&type=1&theater) shows a rider with a v defensive lower leg, who still gets dunked because the horse stops suddenly on entering the water.

Or there's this one:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...041.1073741835.467724236610043&type=1&theater
which looks like impending disaster, but they both do a great job.

If the rider in the photos linked by Mike comes off a lot then maybe more core strength etc, more training in slipping of reins required (to prevent upper body from being yanked forward), but from those pics I wouldn't say she's doing much wrong...
 

stencilface

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Wow Kerilli at that second pic! :eek:

I love the horse in the OP, very cute pic with his ears pricked as the bridle comes of, good horse for not pegging off :)
 

Lynds

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The water is too still making it hard for horses to judge landing. Look at the reflection in the 2nd photo...
 

SpottedCat

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Mike, I have to ask, what's your connection to the rider in the pics? And do they know you've made this post?! Because unless you're paying them to ride that horse, or they've said they don't mind this being discussed on here, I think it's a bit 'off' to be asking people to criticise them and give them advice!
 

kerilli

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Mike, I have to ask, what's your connection to the rider in the pics? And do they know you've made this post?! Because unless you're paying them to ride that horse, or they've said they don't mind this being discussed on here, I think it's a bit 'off' to be asking people to criticise them and give them advice!

Oops, good point, I assumed (always dangerous) because of the 'constructive criticism and a certain amount of sniggering permitted' comment in the original post that she was a relative or close connection of Mike's and knew he'd put this on here... :( :( :(
 

SpottedCat

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You're probably right K, I am sure it's all been cleared with the rider, that's a reasonable assumption to make :)
 

Mike007

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Lets just say that I can report that both horse and rider are entirely unscathed and would like to thank the lady who caught him after he deserted his rider and went off .
 

Nicnac

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Looks ok to me - prefer to see that than rider hanging off the back of the saddle on drop fences yanking the horses teeth out.

Looks like horse collapsed on landing. Glad to hear both ok!
 

Garnet

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I have looked through all the other photos at the water on that website (and very enjoyable it was too!) and the two points that I noted were that other riders generally had their feet further forward in a defensive lower-leg position and/or were sitting closer to their saddles as the horses launch over the log into the water.
As Millitiger says, the photos do not show what went so catastrophically wrong, and in your rider's defense the horse did seem to land quite steeply, but maybe the rider lifting forward out of the saddle as the horse took off over the log was the point at which her centre of balance shifted too far in front of the horse?
In terms of thinking how to improve for the future, either the rider can try to sit still, wait for the horse to jump out from under her and then go with it, or she can think "feet forwards" in adversity.
Just my thoughts - she is already way beyond my capabilities in every respect!
 

j1ffy

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There is no way I would be able to organise my limbs to look that stylish (in the early pics obviously!!) but I'm quite good at armchair feedback :D I'm not sure if the following will make sense to anyone other than me and no doubt someone else can explain it far better...

It looks like the rider's lower leg is in good alignment with the horse's body and the saddle, but it's not in good alignment with the ground. If you look at the most balanced riders, their leg is perpendicular to the ground regardless of where the horse's body is, hence the leg may look too far forwards over the fence, but actually the rider is in perfect balance. If you place a ruler along the shoulder-hip-ankle alignment on these two pictures you may see what I mean:

http://www.ultimate-images.co.uk/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=16876#image=707390

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/gall...2010/8th+Andrew+Nicholson+Shady+copy.jpg.html

The ruler on picture 1 is on a slight angle, whereas for the AN shot it's almost vertical despite the bigger drop. If you look through the thumbnails of the other pics from the same jump at Barbury, the riders who have achieved the 'perpendicular with the ground' alignment look to have had a much more comfortable jump whereas those who tilt the whole alignment in front or behind the vertical look to have had more problems.

I've no idea if that makes sense, but at least I know what I mean!!
 

Zero00000

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Looks to me like the horse has stumbled once jumping into the water, probably thrown out by the reflection and no movement on the surface, although I wouldn't have the heart to go round a course like that,

glad both are ok.
 

oldvic

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For me, there are a couple of things I would look at. The horse gets his back end a little high jumping in so it is harder for him to keep his balance. If you look at the pictures of Wiggy's horse, he makes quite a good job of actually jumping, he just didn't keep his legs straight to land or try to stay upright. This horse is coming down steeper and, with the drag of the water, overbalances but he tries really hard to stay upright and does a good job.
For the rider, I would take a look at the saddle as she has her bum too far forward and a bit out of the saddle so she pivots round her knee. When the horse jolts as he goes down there is nothing to stop her falling forward. If she could keep her bum a bit further back and lower then the centre of gravity would be better and she might be able to keep her knee more relaxed and softer to absorb the movement and the lower leg would stay more forward. This would be a stronger position but I'm not sure the saddle lets her do it.
 

*hic*

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I just love the pics of the horse wandering about and peering into the water in the last three frames. They need a caption along the lines of "No honestly, I was brought down by something, it must be here somewhere".
 

Mike007

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For me, there are a couple of things I would look at. The horse gets his back end a little high jumping in so it is harder for him to keep his balance. If you look at the pictures of Wiggy's horse, he makes quite a good job of actually jumping, he just didn't keep his legs straight to land or try to stay upright. This horse is coming down steeper and, with the drag of the water, overbalances but he tries really hard to stay upright and does a good job.
For the rider, I would take a look at the saddle as she has her bum too far forward and a bit out of the saddle so she pivots round her knee. When the horse jolts as he goes down there is nothing to stop her falling forward. If she could keep her bum a bit further back and lower then the centre of gravity would be better and she might be able to keep her knee more relaxed and softer to absorb the movement and the lower leg would stay more forward. This would be a stronger position but I'm not sure the saddle lets her do it.

Thanks,(and also thanks to everyone else.).I did wonder whether the stirrup length was too long to alow her to get further back.Certainly too,slipping the reins is an issue. He is a big horse and there is a lot of rein to let out very quickly .
 

oldvic

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Thanks,(and also thanks to everyone else.).I did wonder whether the stirrup length was too long to alow her to get further back.Certainly too,slipping the reins is an issue. He is a big horse and there is a lot of rein to let out very quickly .

If she can get herself into a more independent balance then she will find it easier to slip the reins as she won't feel the need to hold on. She doesn't want to go to the other extreme and go to the buckle end as she needs to be able to land and steer so I would work on her balance and treat the rein slipping as an afterthought rather than highlight it. The stirrup length I wouldn't like to make a judgement on from just those photos and it would probably be different if the saddle was roomier or preferably flatter.
 
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