Not everything is pain-related? Who knows?

[Indefatigable]

It's the perennial dilemma. What do you all reckon?

55.038 Aufrufe · 852 Reaktionen | Training issues or Pain? | Michael Peace - Think Equus

Training issues or Pain?.

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[I'm Dun]

Of course hes right, but I wish he hadn't said it. It just allows people to say, oh Micheal Peace said they just need training, which isn't quite what he said, but is how people will choose to interpret it. Most of the time it is pain, or being overfaced or scared. The skill is knowing the difference.

 

[Cortez]

Well I'm glad he's said it, and agree with him. The skill encompasses not only training, but recognising when the horse is uncomfortable.

 

[Birker2020]

Well I'm glad he's said it, and agree with him. The skill encompasses not only training, but recognising when the horse is uncomfortable.

Yes the face responses of pain https://www.countrysidevets.com/post/decoding-equine-pain

 

[HopOnTrot]

There was a great H&H podcast a few years ago. The vet they interviewed stated if it’s not pain, it’s pain and if it’s not pain, it’s pain… I’m a firm believer in that now. (As my recent pile of vets bills attest )

 

[AWinter]

Seems like a whole lot of nothing being said except “this horse isn’t in pain because I said so”, definitely see horses clearly showing conflict behaviour in a lot of these online training videos which is never commented on.

I can’t say much without being specific but there are horses I know for a fact through previous investigation are in pain and yet are still being trained with these big name online trainers saying they’re fine.

You absolutely can train a horse that’s in pain. Not many of these trainers seem to understand learning theory or behavioural science at all. There is a lot of flooding going on under the guise of kindness because they give the horse praise while they’re doing it .

Most of us on here know that you really can’t rule out pain and discomfort, diagnostics with horses beyond the basics are extremely difficult, and many equine vets do not seem to have a good grasp on equine behaviour. There is more to pain than lameness, ulcers and a back X-ray.

Stuff like this grinds my gears, the last thing the industry needs is more loud voices telling us to stop listening to horses.

 

[sbloom]

The number of horses I see where I think there's a problem, vet says no, often for months, years, and it turns out there was a postural issue which became compensation (or rather went from mild compensation to serious) and then actual lameness. And how often does the vet say to send the horse away to a trainer or get a behaviourist out...?

Training is WAY more important than we realise, and the right in hand training can fix physical pain in many instances, but how many people have the skills themselves, or the right team around them, to achieve that? We should take how we train horses very seriously - from the very first day of handling a foal, through to how we ride them. It's the cause of so much pain, lameness and other issues.

Lameness Epidemic – Encompass Equine Solutions.

encompassequinesolutions.com

 

[ycbm]

It's the perennial dilemma. What do you all reckon?

55.038 Aufrufe · 852 Reaktionen | Training issues or Pain? | Michael Peace - Think Equus

Training issues or Pain?.

www.facebook.com

I reckon if he's trying to show it's just a training issue, why does the horse look so shut down and mentally uncomfortable as he makes her open her mouth and accept the bit and the bridle? It looks a sight more like learned helplessness with a quietly very dominant trainer and a pressure/release string halter to me.

Like people above, I hate the fact he has given more people a good excuse to stop listening to their horses.
.

 

[Celtic Jewel]

Playing the devils advocate but a lot of people use the excuse that the horse is in pain for behaviour issues when in fact lack of training, horses temperament , mentality damage horses and not the right horse and rider match is a bigger problem than medical conditions. My friend is a vet a sees completely healthy sound horses that have gotten away with no manners or very dominant horse control there owner but the owner is convinced they are in pain because there horse misbehaving when they are not they are just brats.

 

[AWinter]

Playing the devils advocate but a lot of people use the excuse that the horse is in pain for behaviour issues when in fact lack of training, horses temperament , mentality damage horses and not the right horse and rider match is a bigger problem than medical conditions. My friend is a vet a sees completely healthy sound horses that have gotten away with no manners or very dominant horse control there owner but the owner is convinced they are in pain because there horse misbehaving when they are not they are just brats.

I find this hard to believe as a trainer because I spend my time constantly explaining to people their horse is in fact stressed and uncomfortable and they don’t need “sorting out”. I have yet to find one client who wants to tell me it’s acceptable for their horse to be dangerous to handle because they’re in pain, they all want help with training but they also want to listen to their horse. “Very dominant” horses are just confused, stressed and need to be shown clear boundaries, they’re not trying to control their owner.

I genuinely can’t think of one example of someone thinking a horse is in pain and they haven’t been. Unfortunately most horses are in some level of discomfort even if it’s not a lameness as such, bad management, bad tack, bad posture, bad training. If I was hauling someone around by my head every day “being dominant” I can guarantee I’d have a lot of muscle soreness.

I think people are uncomfortable with the idea that perhaps things we’ve done in the past haven’t been ethical or perhaps we need to update our knowledge of behavioural science and that feels threatening so we double down with these narratives.

My experiences with some vets and how they think it’s acceptable to handle horses does not fill me with confidence that they are knowledgeable enough to judge behaviour. Vets still believing in dominance theory for a start is a big red flag.

 

[PurpleSpots]

The horse in the video shows reluctance to accept the bit, an aversion to being touched around her poll, together with shut-down/partially closed eyes.

All clear signs of pain.

 

[ycbm]

they are not they are just brats

I am so looking forward to the time when I can stop reading about horses being "just brats", "just a miserable sod", "just trying it on". In the distant past I've said it too. In retrospect, with what we know today about animals in general and horses in particular, I now think I was wrong every time.
.

 

[PurpleSpots]

You only have to look at the posts which do the rounds on Facebook from time to time after people have had dissections/necropsies done on horses after they've been PTS for difficult behaviour to know that the horse is always right about their need to protest.

 

[Wizpop]

Another here who would rather give the horse the benefit of the doubt regarding pain-much easier to say “oh it’s just a training issue” and get it “sorted”
In my opinion, a bit irresponsible of MP to post that video- so very open to interpretation as I’m Dun said

 

[sbloom]

Playing the devils advocate but a lot of people use the excuse that the horse is in pain for behaviour issues when in fact lack of training, horses temperament , mentality damage horses and not the right horse and rider match is a bigger problem than medical conditions. My friend is a vet a sees completely healthy sound horses that have gotten away with no manners or very dominant horse control there owner but the owner is convinced they are in pain because there horse misbehaving when they are not they are just brats.

If you define medical conditions as the only cause of pain then yes, maybe. However we all have experience, and not sure you read my comment above, of horses where the vet can find nothing, yet not only does the horse eventually get to clinical, diagnosable levels of pain, but the early signs can be seen in the horse's ridden work and/or stance on the yard. Clinical lameness and pain doesn't come out of nowhere. And no horse is a brat. I wonder if your vet friend is the same one that said my customer's horse needed to go to a trainer to be sorted out when he actually had early stage P3, suspensories and SI damage? And I walked onto the yard and knew I wouldn't be fitting a saddle as his stance was so problematic. He was diagnosed after a year's investigations, had nearly killed the owner as he was so explosive, was treated for ulcers but no further investigations were thought necessary. After my visit the owner insisted on bone scans etc and to keep digging.

You only have to look at the posts which do the rounds on Facebook from time to time after people have had dissections/necropsies done on horses after they've been PTS for difficult behaviour to know that the horse is always right about their need to protest.

The fact that every single horse that Sharon May Davis has dissected has elbow damage tells us all we need to know in many ways, but yes there are all sorts of horrors that plainly make carrying a rider incredibly challenging for many horses. And look, this article is 11 years old...why on earth are we not keeping up with latest best practices and understanding?! (rhetorical, or perhaps aimed at @Celtic Jewel et al)

Equine Elbow Arthritis Lesions Found In All Worked Horses

Equine arthritis of the elbow is found in the majority of worked horses, according to this research by Dr Sharon May-Davis.

thehorsesback.com

 

[stangs]

The problem is that if you want to say something is or isn't pain, then you have to define pain first. However, in the horse world (and, indeed frequently in the human world) there's still a major mentality that pain is physical. If the diagnostics are good, then pain is discredited as a reason for behaviour. But pain isn't physical - it's mental. The body comprehends no difference between pain with a physical cause and 'perceived pain'.

Let's say that the horse in MP's video has had done every diagnostic known to man and clinically has a perfect head and no physical reason to not want to be bridled. Maybe whoever trained them got a bit strong with them, and gave the horse a bad experience around the bridle. With this history, how do we define the issues around bridling: are they a training issue (because no one trained them that being bridled is okay) or is it a pain issue (because the body can 'switch on' pain when given evidence, e.g., past experiences, that the body may be in danger when the bridle is brought closer)?

Obviously, I don't mean to suggest that people shouldn't do diagnostics and not bother with a vet, but I think it's worth reframing the discussion so that training issues and pain aren't treated as direct opposites. There's definitely a lot to consider regarding how we can use sympathetic training to reduce horses' perception of pain, and making them feel safer in their bodies.

(Some intro pieces on current attitudes in pain science - well worth a read)

The mysterious science of pain

In 1995, the British Medical Journal published a report about a builder who accidentally jumped onto a nail, which pierced straight through his steel-toed boot. He was in such agonizing pain that any movement was unbearable. But when the doctors took off his boot, they discovered that the nail...

www.ted.com

Explainer – what is pain? - International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP)

This is an expanded and re-targeted version of the original piece, ‘Explainer-What is Pain‘, published in The Conversation. ‘..if someone has a pain in his hand, then the hand does […]

www.iasp-pain.org

 

[Roxylola]

The body comprehends no difference between pain with a physical cause and 'perceived pain'.

The body comprehends no difference - pain feels like pain. Does that not tell us that we need to look for pain first every time though?

 

[SEL]

Of course hes right, but I wish he hadn't said it. It just allows people to say, oh Micheal Peace said they just need training, which isn't quite what he said, but is how people will choose to interpret it. Most of the time it is pain, or being overfaced or scared. The skill is knowing the difference.

Having seen Michael operate - both with one of my own and other people's horses - he'd say if he thought there was a pain issue. That control headcollar will be the owners because he doesn't use them.

I do wish he hadn't said it though! There is one local trainer to me who has "a method" and yes, it gets horses to do what he wants / needs but with zero thought as to why they are saying no.

 

[SilverLinings]

I reckon if he's trying to show it's just a training issue, why does the horse look so shut down and mentally uncomfortable as he makes her open her mouth and accept the bit and the bridle? It looks a sight more like learned helplessness with a quietly very dominant trainer and a pressure/release string halter to me.

Like people above, I hate the fact he has given more people a good excuse to stop listening to their horses.
.

Unfortunately that post just comes across as sounding like a trainer saying it's something that they can (be paid to) fix, and there's often no need to get a vet, it's better to just go straight to the trainer. I don't know a lot about Michael Peace, but I know several posters on here rate him so it is unfortunate that (as others have already said) comments like this just bolster the belief of many that their 'naughty' horses just have a training issue, and that veterinary investigations aren't needed.

As a slight aside, it amazes me how many horse owners in this day and age still seem to think that horses (and other animals) don't really feel pain like we do, so unless there is a blatantly obvious problem (e.g. clear lameness, a fracture, rolling around in colic agony, etc) then they can't be in pain. There were debates in the House of Lords over a hundred years ago (in the early 1900s) about whether or not animals could feel pain, and I thought as a society we had moved on from that and realised other mammals are very likely to feel pain in the same ways we do, but apparently some people still think they are 'simpler' organisms, or more like machines.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Playing the devils advocate but a lot of people use the excuse that the horse is in pain for behaviour issues when in fact lack of training, horses temperament , mentality damage horses and not the right horse and rider match is a bigger problem than medical conditions. My friend is a vet a sees completely healthy sound horses that have gotten away with no manners or very dominant horse control there owner but the owner is convinced they are in pain because there horse misbehaving when they are not they are just brats.

What absolute nonsense

 

[maya2008]

No one is completely right. Many vets miss pain. Many people have no idea of what an 'in pain' horse/pony looks like. Likewise, sometimes youngsters DO just feel a bit full of themselves, or have an hormonal day or whatever. Equally, an established horse might always have been 'sharp' and that is their normal behaviour. Or perhaps they're magnesium deficient, or their feed changed and they're intolerant to an ingredient, or.... It's never clear cut.

It all comes down to knowing your horse, knowing that youngsters do change their behaviour aged 5 or thereabouts for a bit, but adults rarely do. If my cheeky shetland slows down and behaves, I need the vet. When sweet kind kids' pony kicked out earlier this year when I went to brush her back legs, I nearly fainted in shock, then straight away checked her over, because NEVER, not in a million years would she normally do that. In the end, it's about knowing what's in front of you, having a good eye for pain (that drawn face being one), lameness, signs of psychological stress. It's about taking the horse in front of you as an individual, who has thoughts and feelings and isn't just a machine.

 

[Flame_]

Horses will almost always take the easy option so if they understand what is being asked of them and if it ought to be within their physical capability, yet they still resist doing it, chances are that the thing that they are being asked to do is physically or psychologically painful. I suppose it could just be physically or psychologically stressful but that's really the same thing to a lesser extent.

Whether that means the best course of action is have a vet investigate, find some physical defects, attribute the undesirable behavior to these particular defects and then probably deem the horse unfit for a useful future, instead of developing the horse's physical and psychological strength and resilience through training, is necessarily the case...

 

[Ceifer]

I reckon if he's trying to show it's just a training issue, why does the horse look so shut down and mentally uncomfortable as he makes her open her mouth and accept the bit and the bridle? It looks a sight more like learned helplessness with a quietly very dominant trainer and a pressure/release string halter to me.

Like people above, I hate the fact he has given more people a good excuse to stop listening to their horses.
.

This.
Not only very valid points but it does look like the woman in the video is incapable of putting a bridle on. He looks more confident, he’s taller and he’s still forcing the bit into her mouth.

 

[Orangehorse]

Brain, pain or training? - written by a physiotherapist.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

No one is completely right. Many vets miss pain. Many people have no idea of what an 'in pain' horse/pony looks like. Likewise, sometimes youngsters DO just feel a bit full of themselves, or have an hormonal day or whatever. Equally, an established horse might always have been 'sharp' and that is their normal behaviour. Or perhaps they're magnesium deficient, or their feed changed and they're intolerant to an ingredient, or.... It's never clear cut.

It all comes down to knowing your horse, knowing that youngsters do change their behaviour aged 5 or thereabouts for a bit, but adults rarely do. If my cheeky shetland slows down and behaves, I need the vet. When sweet kind kids' pony kicked out earlier this year when I went to brush her back legs, I nearly fainted in shock, then straight away checked her over, because NEVER, not in a million years would she normally do that. In the end, it's about knowing what's in front of you, having a good eye for pain (that drawn face being one), lameness, signs of psychological stress. It's about taking the horse in front of you as an individual, who has thoughts and feelings and isn't just a machine.

I completely agree with this. A few years ago my cob was not lame but not moving as well as normal and it took some time to persuade our very experienced vet that this was unusual. Eventually he had an MRI (pony not the vet ) which showed some 'mild' coffin joint issues. After time off and Arthramid he came back into work better and more cheerful than ever. I think that many horses shut down as they have no choice but to comply until things get so bad that they react in an extreme way. My son's horse was incredibly shut down when he first arrived aged 6 and it took time for him to realise that we were 'listening'. He is now 24 and a cheeky, charming and joyful retiree.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Ever get a really painful spot under your skin? It's not a medical emergency, or even a medical issue, but it HURTS!
I always think of things like this too. Wouldn't want it having a strap close or weight on.

 

[sbloom]

Ever get a really painful spot under your skin? It's not a medical emergency, or even a medical issue, but it HURTS!
I always think of things like this too. Wouldn't want it having a strap close or weight on.

Exactly, and as a horse owning population we have become much worse at spotting these issues, our breeding has changed and with it our training. We're missing SO much fundamental stuff these days. We need to be the gatekeepers and to learn as much as possible, observation and understanding, to best be able to help our horses, whether through our own direct actions, or our choice of professionals to work with us.

 

[Fieldlife]

Exactly, and as a horse owning population we have become much worse at spotting these issues, our breeding has changed and with it our training. We're missing SO much fundamental stuff these days. We need to be the gatekeepers and to learn as much as possible, observation and understanding, to best be able to help our horses, whether through our own direct actions, or our choice of professionals to work with us.

I think it is both though. We need to spot the differences but also be clear about setting boundaries of expected behaviour. And I am one the first to look for pain in a myriad of ways with my horses. Behaviour too is multifaceted as are our relationships with horses and plays into posture and being comfortable too. We owe it to the horse, to always consider pain and always ask why for change / signs of discomfort. But we also owe it to be clear, fair leaders and have boundaries of expected behaviours to keep everyone safe too.

 

[sbloom]

I think it is both though. We need to spot the differences but also be clear about setting boundaries of expected behaviour. And I am one the first to look for pain in a myriad of ways with my horses. Behaviour too is multifaceted as are our relationships with horses and plays into posture and being comfortable too. We owe it to the horse, to always consider pain and always ask why for change / signs of discomfort. But we also owe it to be clear, fair leaders and have boundaries of expected behaviours to keep everyone safe too.

Of course, no-one should dispute that, we all need to be safe and animals need boundaries, as we all do. If we had better observational skills then it's likely we'd catch things a lot sooner and not need such strong boundaries (or rather we'd have them, but they'd be tested less often).

 

[Birker2020]

Ryans Son was renowned for doing his buck at the end of the show jumping round. That was anticipation and when the crowd clapped he bucked. Nearly every time I believe. But that was him having a bit of fun.

But you know when a horse is unhappy as there are so many other signs as well. All horses will put in the odd buck or rear, but when its consistent then that's the time to get it sorted.

It is really scary but there are so many horses on the selling sites that when you study their videos will have their tails swishing, particuarly when landing after a jump or on the short side of the arena or they will suddenly speed up after the fence as they anticipate the pain. Its a dead giveaway that the horse has problems, most likely pain in their hocks.