Not going well with the second dog

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prose

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So, it has been a week since Murray arrived, and though he is fantastic in most respects (amazing on the lead; no chewing; no marking; incredibly docile; amazing with dogs outdoors) he has shown possession aggression around little Stella. We have since removed all toys from the equation. Treats, we've learnt, are fine when administered jointly, so long as they don't hit the floor; that's what happened two days ago, and that's when he attacked her. I knew nothing of this behaviour in advance and was assured by the rescue that he was a submissive dog, but that isn't the case. Previously, Stella had doted on him (picture taken before the incident), but she is keeping a wary distance when indoors and won't even look at him.

I have had a long conversation with my trainer, and she is coming to do an assessment of Murray tomorrow evening. She was very blunt on the phone and said it's a nightmare dealing with this issue in dogs that have been long-term strays. In any case, Stella is my first priority, and another foster family can be found in NY (a dog-less one) if she thinks Murray is better as an only. (It isn't just the treats--he is possessive of me, and stares Stella down if she dares come over to be petted.) Outside, they are brilliant when walking together.

Please wish us luck. Any and all tips are much appreciated. I have been using the crate, walking them side by side, praising/treating when he sits nicely, and have adopted a no-nonsense policy when it comes to his barging in front of me when I want to stroke Stella.

I cried all day yesterday. He is such a loving, gorgeous dog, and it breaks my heart that he has this guarding issue through no fault of his own.

Murray and Stella
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What a shame. If only you could talk some sense to them!

I think your dong the right thing getting the behaviourist and hopefully they will be able to help.

We had two dogs that would fight and never did manage to 'cure' them we just had to keep them seperate all the time.

PS the Boston Terrier is beautiful.
 
Well it's only been a week since he arrived so he's probably still settling in and trying to find his place in the family. It is hard when there's a dominance issue, I have a GSD and Springer Spaniel who have had some major fights over both wanting to be top dog and looking for attention for me.
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They can't be left out together unsupervised and I have to keep a close eye on them for any signs of aggression towards one another. Hopefully your trainer will be able to address the issues and help him realise his position in the family. Good luck with him, he looks like a lovely dog, I hope you get it sorted
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To me it sounds like they are just sorting out the pecking order and Murray is a little insecure. I'm sure others can give better advice than me, but I think you need to make it clear that you are 'top dog' and Stella is next in line, so always greet her 1st, feed her 1st and treat her 1st. I hope he settles down soon.
 
What a shame as it seemed so promising but it's early days yet. Who knows what Murrays circumstances were before and how much he had to fight for every crumb. Maybe he needs to learn to be bottom dog? I let my 3 decide amongst themselves but if it's making Stella unhappy then perhaps you should decide for them and do everything with her first. Feed her first, give her treats first, put her collar and lead on first, fuss her first but then make a big fuss of him on his own so he feels reassured. Complicated little beings aren't they!
 
Like piebald says, the dogs are sorting out the pecking order. The newcomer wants to be Alpha. He may eventually earn that right from Stella, but she has been the only dog up until now so she is naturally first in your home. The new dog won't respect this as he has no knowledge of the home into which he has come, and for all he knows everyone could be new, including the adults.

It's not unusual for there to be a few weeks of establishing the pecking order. We had the same issue when we got a second dog. You have to be able to keep an eye on things as it's not fair on the established dog to get hurt, but usually things settle down and the dogs sort it out between themselves. Our new dog does actually rule the roost now, even though we feed the old dog first like we have always done. Stella might accept being the under-dog in time, but you should continue to treat her as top dog so the decision is hers and not forced on her.

Don't panic, it could work out, it's good that you have a trainer on hand to assess things and offer advice.
 
To be on the safe side, we signed a "foster" form, as opposed to an "adoption" one, being that Murray is from overseas. This was at my husband's insistence, and I didn't think it would be necessary, being that the rescue assured me I was getting a submissive dog that would defer to Stella (usually the assertive one) right away. This was important to me because of the size difference between them, and a Boston Terrier's nature "not to back down when challenged" which thank god didn't happen the other night.

The trainer is coming this evening, so I'll let you know what she thinks. Currently, Stella is petrified of Murray and won't even be in the same room as him. I've tried making them sit next to each other and giving them treats, and treating Murray when he sits (while holding him back, too) so that I can touch Stella, but she runs off as soon as she is able. Any other ideas to build her confidence back?

To the poster who asked, yes he's been fixed, but only a couple of months ago (he's twenty months now).
 
Well despite what I said earlier, I think if there is genuine fear involved, you might be on a losing battle. I would get your trainer's advice asap. Some dogs personalities will never be compatible, I would consider this a trial period, but it's not fair to traumatise your little one. A different companion might work out better.
 
he is still young and seems like he is trying to be top dog, you always find that when resueing a dog their very quiet and good in the first couple weeks then they start to try their luck, hopefully he will be better with time and training when i rescued my rottie he had a couple of fights with my collie but they sorted themselves out and even though the rottie is still entire the collie is still above him.
 
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he is still young and seems like he is trying to be top dog, you always find that when resueing a dog their very quiet and good in the first couple weeks then they start to try their luck, hopefully he will be better with time and training when i rescued my rottie he had a couple of fights with my collie but they sorted themselves out and even though the rottie is still entire the collie is still above him.

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Did they learn to play with one another in time as well?

Most male dogs go gaga over Stella, but Murray hasn't shown a blind bit of interest in her. Twice she tried to get him to play, but he just wasn't interested; he played with her for about two seconds when they were at the park, but that was it. In fairness, it could be that he doesn't know how, but all his attention is so focussed on me, it's as if, at best, she doesn't exist, and at worst, she is an annoyance or an obstacle.

My trainer actually petsits Stella when we go away, so she is very familiar with my dog, and knows that Stella gets along great with her three Dobermans and Jack Russell, all females. She always comments about what a relaxed, easygoing girl Stella is, so I'm eager to hear her thoughts on our current set-up.
 
Really sorry to hear Murray isn't settling in with you as well as you hoped. I think you've just got to step back and assess the situation and keep little Stella your main priority in all of this. Bless her, she must be worried if she runs out of the room away from him. I hope everything goes well with your trainer tomorrow evening and i hope that you can come to some sort of arrangement with Murray whether that be refostering him or helping him establish a partnership with Stella. Give the gorgeous little Stella a big hug and kiss from me, little poppet!!
 
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Really sorry to hear Murray isn't settling in with you as well as you hoped. I think you've just got to step back and assess the situation and keep little Stella your main priority in all of this. Bless her, she must be worried if she runs out of the room away from him. I hope everything goes well with your trainer tomorrow evening and i hope that you can come to some sort of arrangement with Murray whether that be refostering him or helping him establish a partnership with Stella. Give the gorgeous little Stella a big hug and kiss from me, little poppet!!

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Thank you. The trainer will be here in an hour, so fingers crossed.

I had to take Murray to the vet this afternoon for a stiff shoulder, and when I got back, Stella was so excited to come say hi, but Murray blocked her, growled, and so she sprinted off, heckles up. I gave him a firm "no" and put him in a down, but he is blimming persistent when it comes to wanting to be by me.

After everything chilled, I put Murray in his crate with a peanut-butter kong and gave my Stella the cuddles she has been deprived of this past week.

Harmony reigns once more!
 
I think it's expected when you bring a new dog in, as you and stella's lives will have to readjust to fit. My bitch was not happy at all for the first couple of weeks with a new puppy but now they are inseparable. The cat is still not sure where he fits in though
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I think you need to assert your dominance as pack leader over Murray.

He is showing that he has little respect for you by doing this. Because he sees a lack of discipline from you (and I dont mean a beating, just demeanor, attitude and body language) he is taking over as he feels that someone should.

There are several books on the subject of dog psychology. But you as pack leader should be able to have a hand in determining who is your chosen 2nd in command and there are a whole load of techniques you can use to show him that you don't need him to take charge and that he should take his place as the pack subordinate.

It is easy to humanise dogs and whilst he felt under threat in the kennel situation of the society that rehomed him he has quickly assessed the situation with you and may have picked up on you feeling sorry for him in this respect and taken it for a sign of weakness.

Having rehomed all my dogs I have had to learn very fast and my latest has been a real challenge, I had to be very hard on him, mentally and rise to an agressive dog who had gotten that way by home 1 beating him and home 2 feeling sorry for him, leaving an agressive dog who had learned to make people back off very effectively!

This is quite a good introdutory site to find out more on this subject http://www.westieclubamerica.com/behavior/alpha.html

All the best, but please don't give up until you have done a bit of research as you will have a lovely dog there if you persist.
 
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I think you need to assert your dominance as pack leader over Murray

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Thanks for all the info. I thought I had been the pack leader. I'm calm, assertive, persistent, and take charge on a walk. But you're right--Murray probably has been taking advantage of me, knowing full well that he is adorable in everything that he does, and that, deep down, I'm a bit of a soft touch.

The trainer came this evening. What she saw in Murray was an insecure, unstable dog, which isn't surprising considering his change in environment etc. She gave me a load of pointers on how to overcome the issue, so we will start with those.

She is very concerned about Stella, however, and the level of anxiety my girl is showing. Usually, she said, dogs bounce right back from an incident, but she is still reeling from it. The trainer was very, very blunt and said that Murray would likely do best as an only dog, based on the levels of insecurity she witnessed and the demand he places on his human to be petted and tended to.

We will carry on with renewed purpose for now, but I don't like the idea of them co-existing in the same space like this forever. Neither one would be getting what they deserve.
 
Eeek...just spied this post
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sorry your having probs with the new arrival...we have this problem frequently with new arrivals...they dont get away with it for long...hence the piccies of a million mixing together
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we also as suggested step in to correct the unwanted behaviour esp if towards a dog that wont stand up for it self as stella is
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however in some cases its not a bad thing...as the last thing anyone wants is doggy scraps
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I think with me its all in my body language and big gob
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....its enough to get instant attention.....but u have to with the vast amounts of dogs we deal with
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I would definatley show him u mean business when he displays this behaviour towards stella....give the old vocal cords a good work out
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I would give him a little more time, I think alot of people tend to lavish new rescue arrivals with love and attention at first...when more importantly a consistent routine should be put in place...I think u need to show him u can be as firm as u can caring.
 
Hiya, I get a similar thing with Dante and Amber, but Dante doesnt really rise to it, just ignores her. She can be very bossy/bully like to him, and for almost four months I have fed him first, petted him first, spoke to him first etc but she is so stubborn she wont accept it. Its only really round food with her she tell Dante to get out the way - she's got first dibs, and she gets a firm no, and usually excluded from the situation (not that I have them around food very often, but she gets enthusiatic everytime I open the fridge cos their chicken portions are in there
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) We've even gone as far as Dante is allowed on the sofa and not her, which is a good thing as she's far too big
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Hiya, I get a similar thing with Dante and Amber, but Dante doesnt really rise to it, just ignores her. She can be very bossy/bully like to him, and for almost four months I have fed him first, petted him first, spoke to him first etc but she is so stubborn she wont accept it. Its only really round food with her she tell Dante to get out the way - she's got first dibs, and she gets a firm no, and usually excluded from the situation (not that I have them around food very often, but she gets enthusiatic everytime I open the fridge cos their chicken portions are in there
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) We've even gone as far as Dante is allowed on the sofa and not her, which is a good thing as she's far too big
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Are they a similar size? Have they fought with one another?

Murray tried to bite Stella again last night. There were no toys and treats around, only me, so I'm guessing I was the object to be guarded. I told him off and put him to bed. I am being as calm as I possibly can, but can't help feeling defensive and ready to protect Stella at any moment.
 
If you shaved Amber they would be very similar in size! They play fight a lot, you can see the dominance challenges, heads resting on shoulders, pinning to the ground etc but Dante stands his ground and its the silent fighting, no growling, snarling or snapping. The only time there are empty snaps are if there is food around, so we just get them both out of the way.

Im no expert by far, but do what your doing, spend a little time just with Stella, take just her for a walk, give just her cuddles, in that situation if amber comes up and butts her big ol head in, we just tell her no and push her away. She usually answers back with a 'woo woo', but she gives up eventually
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They do say if they want to bite they will, they dont miss, is it more warning empty snaps like mine do when there is food around? It sound like your doing all the right things, we have had Amber for 4 months as a rescue, and its only the last few weeks we have noticed she has really chilled out.
 
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Im no expert by far, but do what your doing, spend a little time just with Stella

They do say if they want to bite they will, they dont miss, is it more warning empty snaps like mine do when there is food around?

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Sadly, no. When he attacked her on Sunday, he cut her lip and left a deep scratch that went all the way from her neck to her tail nub. There was no warning growl, which was the scariest thing.

Tonight I'm taking Stella to agility class, so it should be a nice fun distraction for her
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I obviously don't know your trainer but sometimes, "needs to be an only dog" is a huge cop out!

Dogs are pack animals and once pack rules are enforced things should settle down. Moving a dog to an only dog home is an easy way to defuse the problem the dog, providing it has no agressive tendancies simply takes over his new pack (humans) but as there are no other dogs around this fact is hidden unless it starts to become protective of its pack.

It might be an idea if you had a cage to send Murray to the "Naughty Cage" for now when he becomes dominant, removing a predator from its pack makes it feel vunerable.

You have a big advantage over there, why don't you contact Cesar Milan for some advice?
 
I don't want to name names but the trainer is famous (though not Cesar
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). I love her to bits, and Stella is one of her favourites to look after.

Murray is an interesting dog, that's for sure. He only likes to say hi to other dogs by going nose to nose (no undercarriage) and is so blase about other canines. Hard to describe but he's very self-assured.

We're going to see how it goes. Maybe he'd do better in a home with a strong alpha female. I thought Stella fit the bill, and she usually has no problem standing up to other dogs, regardless of size.

I must say that he has no problems following my commands otherwise, and I've taught him sit, wait, stay, and leave it.

If this issue related to their play being boisterous, I would feel better able to sort it out, but Murray does not care for Stella at all. He sometimes sniffs her nose when they are out walking, but he has no interest in playing with her or lying near her. I think that's what my trainer meant by him being better as an "only dog"--the fact he shows no interest in other dogs, other than to better them.
 
when i first got my rottie he also showed no interest in my collie as you have described and was always craving my attention but he would only get it when i wanted to give it. i used to send him away if he came for fuss then call him back when i wanted to give the fuss.but if i was to seperate them he would get very upset, they do play now but it has taken a good 6months for them to do that without it turning into a fight, i agree with doing everything with stella first as the bottom of the pack is always last and also letting stella get physically above murray as this may help her to realise as well as him, it worked for us so it may work for you too but i would def not give in.
 
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