Not happy!

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Patchworkpony

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I'm not happy about a working cocker breeder. Reserved a bitch puppy however as soon as they are born she wants £200 deposit up front, her terms are first to send the money gets first pick of the litter. Then you can't see or choose your exact puppy until it is 4 weeks old. SO if I then go to see the litter and don't take to any of them I've lost my deposit. Hmmm - it seem an odd way to sell a dog. Both parents health tested etc. but I do hate being put under this kind of pressure. I have heard she is a bit 'canny'. I said surely it's matter of gelling with a puppy and she said that's nonsense as all pups are the same and it's the way you bring them up. What do you guys think?
 
Personally I would walk away now!

Any breeder who thinks all puppies are the same needs to be avoided at all costs! And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...
 
WorkingGSD said:
Personally I would walk away now!

Any breeder who thinks all puppies are the same needs to be avoided at all costs! And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...
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Thanks that is exactly what I thought - nice to have it confirmed though.
 
Run away!! Find a better breeder!
She is not the kind of person who I'd like to buy from, puppies are not all the same and you really do need the right dog for you, which may not be in that litter. Sounds to me like she's in it for the money not the dogs wellbeing
 
Patchworkpony said:
I'm not happy about a working cocker breeder. Reserved a bitch puppy however as soon as they are born she wants £200 deposit up front, her terms are first to send the money gets first pick of the litter. Then you can't see or choose your exact puppy until it is 4 weeks old. SO if I then go to see the litter and don't take to any of them I've lost my deposit. Hmmm - it seem an odd way to sell a dog. Both parents health tested etc. but I do hate being put under this kind of pressure. I have heard she is a bit 'canny'. I said surely it's matter of gelling with a puppy and she said that's nonsense as all pups are the same and it's the way you bring them up. What do you guys think?
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I have had to do more or less that with my forthcoming pup. I have already paid a deposit and her terms are first paid first choice. There has to be some way of people choosing their pups and this seems the fairest. I can't think of any other. Like it or not I had no choice if I wanted one. . I checked the dog and bitch out, got to know the bitch and knew that I really wanted a pup from that mating. Plus they have other advantages for me. Mine is not a commercial breeder just an owner breeding from her one bitch. She has a waiting list for the pups. If I hadn't paid the deposit (I have 2nd choice of a bitch) then unless enough people on the waiting list pulled out I would have no chance of a pup. I don't feel under pressure, I accepted the conditions to get what I want. I don't see any problem about gelling with a puppy. My problem will be I will have gelled with the whole lot of them!! She also doesn't want visitors till they are 4 weeks old. My lady showed me exactly where the pups will be born, how they will be looked after and the accommodation they will move to as they grow, when visits will be allowed and how choosing will happen. This is not the bitch's first litter so she is going on what has worked for the bitch in the past. If you gel with a pup at 3 weeks say then it may well be a very different animal when it is 6 weeks.
 
Assuming that the pups are solid colours, recognising one from the other, even at 8 weeks can be a bit tricky! My last litter of Cockers were all solid Liver coloured, and eventually I had to take them back to the vet, re-scan them to check the chip numbers, then each one wore a brightly coloured velcro collar. It was chaos!

Considering the question of asking for a deposit, I never do it and perhaps I should. Many have 'phoned and asked for a pup to be reserved and that's the last that I hear of them! It's never really mattered because I generally keep what's left and start them off. There is also more than a grain of truth in that the pup will be what you make of it and it's really only at about 12-14 weeks onwards that any pup will display any form of future character traits. 'Selecting' pups at 6-8 weeks and with any degree of certainty, is simply impossible, I believe.

If they're work bred, I'd check that they've been docked. If they haven't then there may well be no intention of breeding a litter of pups and for them to go in to work, eventually, and it may just be a breeder jumping on the 'working' band wagon. Also, and it's important, there are those WC which are prone to having shot-jaws, so again, not at 4 weeks but upon collection, check for a clean bite.

Do you know of the KC names of the parents? If you do, PM if you prefer, and I may be able to tell you a bit more about them. From what you say, it sounds to be fairly above board. If you do pay a deposit, be certain that if any flaws develop in the period before selection and collection, that the deposit will be returned.

Alec.
 
I paid a deposit for Pen, but only after she was born and we had met the whole litter, we didn't know which was ours at that point.
I didn't pay a deposit for the other two, mainly I think as the breeder wanted first dibs both times and had a long enough waiting list that selling was not an issue or a rush.
 
I wouldn't have an issue paying a deposit once I had met the pups, even if I hadn't yet decided which pup I wanted (I prefer to choose around 6-7 weeks).
 
WorkingGSD said:
And that is even before I start on her reasons for putting down a deposit before you have even seen the pups, and the first to pay gets first pick of the litter ...
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ok, I'd not put a deposit down on a pup I hadnt seen but many pups are sold by first viewer to get there and pay a deposit, gets first pick (assuming neither breeder wants it) dont they so not sure how that is much different? Quarrie's breeder operated that way-all had gone bar three boys when I got there (this was at 6 weeks), I picked one, the next person took the next and he took the last. He bred because he wanted another GR to work-he's not breeding again for the foreseeable-so he's not churning out lots of pups for profit.
 
I just object to paying a deposit on pups I can't even see until they are four weeks old. I would like to see what they are like, how they are kept and how well they look before I pay money to someone I have never even met.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
ok, I'd not put a deposit down on a pup I hadnt seen but many pups are sold by first viewer to get there and pay a deposit, gets first pick (assuming neither breeder wants it) dont they so not sure how that is much different? Quarrie's breeder operated that way-all had gone bar three boys when I got there (this was at 6 weeks), I picked one, the next person took the next and he took the last. He bred because he wanted another GR to work-he's not breeding again for the foreseeable-so he's not churning out lots of pups for profit.
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Hmm yeah, see what you mean. I was thinking along the lines of prospective puppy owners passing an interrogation first and then going on a waiting list, then going down the list first come, first served (if that makes sense) - but I can see how first payment, first choice could also work so long as I was happy with all the people on the waiting list ;)
 
Patchworkpony said:
I just object to paying a deposit on pups I can't even see until they are four weeks old. I would like to see what they are like, how they are kept and how well they look before I pay money to someone I have never even met.
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Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy, having decided dog or bitch, check all of that gender, enquire how many are spoken for, ask what's left, make a decision, then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks. If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early, then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb: Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks. The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! :)

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy, having decided dog or bitch, check all of that gender, enquire how many are spoken for, ask what's left, make a decision, then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks. If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early, then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb: Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks. The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! :)

Alec.
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Sorry to contradict you yet again (!) but there are plans to tighten up laws around selling and breeding dogs which will make it completely illegal to sell puppies younger than eight weeks. Does anyone actually know if this law is now in place?
 
Pen was the first pup that I haven't had at 7 weeks, I don't know if it was her breeders preference or the law but I would say from my limited puppy purchasing that historically 7 weeks was the norm, when we were children it was 6. Yes that will have to change now.
 
WorkingGSD said:
Sorry to contradict you yet again (!) but there are plans to tighten up laws around selling and breeding dogs which will make it completely illegal to sell puppies younger than eight weeks. Does anyone actually know if this law is now in place?
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So it seems that you aren't sure, but offer a contradiction just the same! :D No change there then!

There are no Laws extant which prevent the sale of a puppy under the age of 8 weeks.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
Then go and look (I wouldn't buy a pup unseen either) and if you're happy, having decided dog or bitch, check all of that gender, enquire how many are spoken for, ask what's left, make a decision, then pay your deposit and return at 7-8 weeks. If the breeder's keeping them to 8 weeks and you take yours a few days early, then you'll be more likely to get the one that you want!

nb: Mostly breeders will tell you that they ALWAYS keep pups back until 8 weeks. The truth of the matter is that most are glad to see the back of them a week early! :)

Alec.
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The point is Alec you don't get to even see the pups until you have paid a deposit first. Nice breeding etc. BUT I feel this is more about the money than the right home.
 
Patchworkpony said:
The point is Alec you don't get to even see the pups until you have paid a deposit first. Nice breeding etc. BUT I feel this is more about the money than the right home.
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If the breeder won't let you see the pups until you've paid a deposit, then that would be the end of it for me. What's 'nice breeding'? Do you know? It's always about the money with most breeders, what ever they may tell you!

Alec.
 
I sometimes had people offering to pay a deposit before they had been to see pups, but I would never take them, and in fact often didn't take deposit even after pups had been viewed. I certainly wouldn't be happy if I was asked to pay a deposit before even seeing a pup.
With regards to puppies going at 8 weeks, I don't know if it is law but certainly if you are a KC Accredited Breeder you are not allowed to let puppies go until 8 weeks old.
 
WorkingGSD said:
Hmm yeah, see what you mean. I was thinking along the lines of prospective puppy owners passing an interrogation first and then going on a waiting list, then going down the list first come, first served (if that makes sense) - but I can see how first payment, first choice could also work so long as I was happy with all the people on the waiting list ;)
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that is what we have done. I wouldn't call it an interrogation but we satisfied ourselves re the paperwork, bitch, health and how she was kept, terms of sale etc and the lady had a couple of hours of our company during which we realised we had both worked for the same employer and both done identical obedience classes with our earlier related shepherds so we hit it off. I suspect many people could say they were interested , go on a waiting list and then back out. Others who had then heard of the waiting list of say 10 could well have given up even though they were serious. A deposit certainly focused our interest.

WGSD, I heard about the 8 weeks recently on the news. I don't think it is law as yet but it was going to be proposed.
 
8 weeks is mad across the board when many bitches will have weaned off the pups by rejecting them possibly weeks earlier.

I wouldn't give a deposit with an unseen litter. Is she telling you she'll just pick a random pup? That would definitely make me walk, mostly cos she can't have a clue thinking all pups are the same. I want to choose both next time so we don't get another Zak! He's utterly adorable but hard work and we knew this when we picked him. They were 9 weeks and characters were evident.
 
My thought is that if it's all about the money, then it's probably not the right breeder, although that would be something that each buyer would have to decide for themselves.
Also, why would a breeder want to take deposits before they have met the potential owners? I don't know many people that breed, but those I do know are incredibly fussy - as they should be, because they want to find the right owners that will give the pup a great life, as they always expect to take a pup back at any age if it doesn't work out, so it is in everyone's interest to get it right first time. I know the interrogation stage is often by phone, or email, and many months earlier than the visit to see the pups, but sometimes people seem ok and then ...... well , sometimes they are just not what is expected.
But if this litter is exactly what you want as far as breeding, health tests etc, then it may be a risk worth taking.
Not that I'm an expert having only had other people's unwanted dogs at over a year old, but when we did a lot of and ringcraft classes, you get to hear about these things and how the really good breeders get homes they are happy with. The ones I've chatted with have been much more focused on getting it right, and the money is far down the list of priorities.
 
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