Not trimming foal feet - an update

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soloequestrian

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I've posted some pictures on Phoenixhorse - http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/about6618.html - which is much less faff than posting on here.
Foal is now actually a yearling. Her feet are looking great, and I have done virtually nothing to them (neither has anyone else). She is fed a protein supplement and minerals to balance the grass/forage analyses. The only trimming her feet have had is to even out the odd chip and to take off a little bit of flare that obviously wanted to come off - it appeared as her upright foot started to correct itself.
Please note that this doing nothing is a carefully considered course of (in)action and not just because I can't be bothered! It's been fascinating when I can see past the stress - she is out 24/7 in a field which has one relatively hard area but is mainly 'soft' soil - her feet seem to be self-regulating very nicely. Cautiously hopeful that I'll be able to maintain this minimal intervention for the rest of her life (touching wood, crossing fingers etc.).
 
Can't see pics as not a member of that forum. I suspect that 'minimal intervention' won't last long. Hoof shape and wear changes as they get older so trimming becomes more necessary. Speaking from experience of having from 3 weeks old.
 
I've seen them. ;) :D Don't forget this is a foal and the constant movement may have also helped any possible body/biomechanical issue causing the upright foot. Just musing. .
 
If someone can give me numpty instructions that won't take hours, I can post photos. Phoenixhorse just has a button that says 'Add photo' - why can't HHO??
I'm sure the constant movement is key to the whole thing. One reason I didn't want anyone to intervene with her foot that seemed upright was because I can't see what you could actually do. The only action would be to remove a bit of hoof, and I strongly suspect that doing that would have repercussions further up the leg. The upright foot is attached to a leg that is marginally twisted - just a tad more toe out than the other. I think trimming the foot in any way would have meant the twist would have affected joint development. I'm just so relieved that the upright foot is correcting itself - I don't think the twist ever will but having a foot the right shape to support that conformation should go a long way towards maintaining soundness.
There is actually a very pertinent mention of a self trimming foal on the Rockley blog today too!
 
dogatemysalad said:
^^This^^.
I'm quite interested though, as to how her feet have effectively self trimmed and balanced themselves on grass.
That isn't meant to be sarcastic, I'm genuinely intrigued to see how her feet are.
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I've mused a lot on the self trimming idea, and I genuinely think it is 'regulation' rather than 'trimming' - I think her feet are growing at a rate that matches wear, even though that wear is minimal. Interestingly, every time the ground has dried out, the back of the upright foot has flared and bits of wall have started to crack off - these are the bits that I've tidied. This has dropped her heel, although oddly her heel has never looked high - the frog has always been in contact with the ground. Not well explained, but it does seem as if the bits that need it are self trimming and the rest regulating.
 
I have two 2yo Highland colts here who had their feet trimmed for the first time about 2 weeks ago. The farrier agreed that they did not need trimming before this. (They get looked at when the others get routine trimming). They are on grass and the soil is almost pure sand.

I have several youngsters here and their feet vary. One 4yo had almost perfect feet and a 3yo badly needed trimming. They usually all get trimmed at the same time, regardless. Some need it more than others. All are fed grass with hay/haylage over winter with a mineral block and no supplements.

I was working with a yearling today who has not had his feet trimmed since birth. I think he will probably be OK until 2 as well as his feet look perfect.
 
question - have you had her since birth? In which case why was the twisted leg not treated then or was it not evident?
 
testing

Io+foot+March.jpg
 
Interestingly I'm in the same situation with my yearling. Her feet have never needed done and when I visitied her a couple of weeks ago the last of her foal hoof has grown out and she now has what looks like 'proper' horse hooves. Her feet are checked but as she is straight limbed and he feet have never grown long or cracked we've never intervened. Interestingly her sire was the same, he was out SJ-ing aged 6 unshod and had superb feet that basically self trimmed and he'd required very little trimming throughout his life to that point iirc.
 
Thanks Ester, that is definitely the easiest posting of pictures I've ever done!
I didn't have her from birth. I'm not sure what 'correction' could have been done anyway. I know that there are things people do, but I'd be surprised if there is any hard evidence for their efficacy over a long period of time compared with doing nothing.
 
soloequestrian said:
I know that there are things people do, but I'd be surprised if there is any hard evidence for their efficacy over a long period of time compared with doing nothing.
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Oh believe me - some babies would end up with very deformed front legs (and sometimes hind legs) if they're not 'sorted' at an early age (ideally at first sign - but certainly before 1 year old.) Others barely need touching. But bad feet don't just act as bad feet - they affect the growth of the leg too!

I ended up having a 5 year old mare sent to me for grading and backing (and curing a rash of sarcoids as well!) Her front feet were badly pigeon toed - it took a year to get them straight enough to get her through grading - but a total 'cure' is impossible. If I'd had her as a foal she would have ended up straight!
 
A good farrier is essential, we had about mares and 100 foals coming and going in a season, and the farrier had a look at a quite a few of them, a few foals needed trimming as much as once a month or they would have ended up with major defects, amazing what a difference a light touch made.
 
Brilliant that you have been able to get away with so little intervention. But agree with the others, it has to be a case by case basis and have also seen some very unfortunate legs that would have improved with early trimming.

I bought an 18 month old filly last year, who's hooves hadn't had as much attention as they needed. They were so long she had developed a curious way of flicking her front feet so she didn't fall over them and was also turning them out when she stood. 14 months later we are getting there - but I wouldn't have wanted to be starting any later.
 
What an improvement between the pictures. Very interesting to hear the different stories though. I have a 3 yo whose feet grow like weeds, he needs trimming twice as often as the mare. As a foal, he was left too long by his breeder to the point where the vet had to intervene and insist they had him trimmed! Fortunately he has correct and straight limbs but it just shows the differences in their needs.
 
I'm interested to know whether anyone who has trimmed in the hope of correcting limb deviations, rather than because feet are too long, has considered the possibility that the foal got better in spite of the treatment rather than because of it? This is what I meant above - I suspect there is no hard evidence that the treatments available actually do anything. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, it's just an interesting discussion, but I think we do a lot of things with horses because that's how we've always done them. I know that if I hadn't been through many years of caring for adult barefoot horses, I would have approached my foal in a very different way - over the past 10 years I've thrown away many of the beliefs that were instilled in me when initially learning (and then teaching about) horse management.
In terms of feet that grow fast, are there dietary issues? It seems that people who have had experience of foals requiring trimming for that reason are often taking them on from a situation where they perhaps haven't been monitored very well?
 
soloequestrian said:
I'm interested to know whether anyone who has trimmed in the hope of correcting limb deviations, rather than because feet are too long, has considered the possibility that the foal got better in spite of the treatment rather than because of it? This is what I meant above - I suspect there is no hard evidence that the treatments available actually do anything. I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, it's just an interesting discussion,
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No - it's not particularly interesting because - your view - is wrong and might lead inexperienced people astray!

I can assure you that foals with deformed/unbalanced feet get worse, and the limb deviations that happen as a result get worse, if the problems are not corrected!
 
I favoured invention with foals when I was breeding ( I shared one of the mares with a vet ) we where on any issues pdq restricting movement or the mares food as necessary and used glue on shoes on a couple of times they all turned out good in the foot and limb department .
We had some other disasters though .
One of the saddest things is to to go and view three year olds and to have turn them down because of issues that could have easily been managed as a foal.
 
Ok, if people are just going to get inflamed anyway, I will bow out. I think there are some very blinkered people on here who can't go beyond their own narrow point of view to have a debate about something I find fascinating. My point of view is obviously not wrong as I am having success with it. Perhaps inexperienced people need to have access to a bit of debate before they go down a route that might not do them any good whatsoever and might actually be harmful. I note that people who are insulted are not doing any discussing, just dissing what I've said.
 
There's no point discussing though is there - you are fixed in your viewpoint. Which, from the point of view of most professionals, is wrong.

When my foal broke his fetlock at 5 months the vet couldnt stress enough the importance of maintaining proper for balance to aid recovery.

For what it's worth your foal is long in the toe which is in turn disrupting the angle of the pastern, putting strain on growing joints. The angle of he hoof should match the angle of the pastern and it doesn't in your horse.

So although the initial problem has resolved itself, there are other potential problems for the future being stored up
 
I think if your horses were on the "perfect" ground and getting the optimum amount of movement, so they were self trimming perfectly then, yes, leave them to it. However that kind of perfection rarely exits, even amongst feral horses. It is well known that the Kaimanawa horses in the central NI of NZ, have poor feet due to feed and ground conditions - they certainly don't fit the wild horse ideal.

However, given that most people invest a whole lot of time, money and love into their youngstock, it would be a brave owner who would play the wait and see game. I simply prefer to be pro-active rather than re-active and trim my youngsters from day dot regularly.
 
I think that whilst your view is interesting I disagree and also think that each youngster should be treated as a different case and likely not one method will suit all as has been proven time and again. I have had my yearling trimmed recently, mostly he took the flare off to begin with but now he (he being my farrier) has to remove some of the growth and I can assure you he has a very good and balanced diet as is evident from the condition of my yearling. I think what has got peoples backs up is that you have actually blinkered views yourself and went in with the attitude of "I'm right but what does everyone else think".
 
soloequestrian said:
Ok, if people are just going to get inflamed anyway, I will bow out. I think there are some very blinkered people on here who can't go beyond their own narrow point of view to have a debate about something I find fascinating. My point of view is obviously not wrong as I am having success with it. Perhaps inexperienced people need to have access to a bit of debate before they go down a route that might not do them any good whatsoever and might actually be harmful. I note that people who are insulted are not doing any discussing, just dissing what I've said.
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I can assure you I am not inflamed I simply don't agree with you .
 
soloequestrian- you are basing your opinion on one foal.. Who still has a twisted leg from what you said earlier. So not exactly a success story...
There are many things that can be done with deviations as young foals -to help slow growth for example to allow one side of the leg to keep up.
Unfortunately you have evidently not seen the result of what happens when things are so bad even intervention doesn't work with e.g contracted tendons - and to be truthful I have yet to see intervention be harmful.
 
SusieT said:
soloequestrian- you are basing your opinion on one foal.. Who still has a twisted leg from what you said earlier. So not exactly a success story...
There are many things that can be done with deviations as young foals -to help slow growth for example to allow one side of the leg to keep up.
Unfortunately you have evidently not seen the result of what happens when things are so bad even intervention doesn't work with e.g contracted tendons - and to be truthful I have yet to see intervention be harmful.
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I am a barefoot fanatic as some people know, and when this question rose on another forum while the horse was younger, I pointed out that in an animal that young, limb deviation can be straightened by trimming. I agree with SusieT and I would encourage anyone with youngsters with odd feet to seek an expert farrier opinion on whether the limb deviation can be corrected.

SE, edited to answer an earlier point you made that I believe there is plenty of evidence that growth plate activity can be modified by changing pressure. In adult horses, the foot grows to match a finished bent leg if allowed and I am a devout believer in allowing that to happen. It is logical to me that the same will happen in a younger horse, and the foot will then perpetuate the limb deformity. Unfortunately that's a hard tissue problem and not able to be corrected when the horse is older. In an older horses with soft tissue problems causing foot abnormality, we call a physio. If the problem is set in bone, we can't.

I might well myself have left your youngster alone, but I think it is a very dangerous thing to suggest on a forum that people with limb or foot deformities in young horses should ask do the same.
 
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