Not tying up - what was it?!

[MagicMelon]

Horse has tied up for the 2nd time this year and vet and I cant work out any reason for it. She had a few days off work prior so was just chilling in field (no galloping about / excitement) and is on a low carb, high oil diet. Vets doing blood tests to check for pssm. Meantime, Ive read high vit e and selenium are good for horses prone to this. Can anyone recommend any supplements? I can only find selenavite e, not sure if its best?

- See update below

 

[paddy555]

Horse has tied up for the 2nd time this year and vet and I cant work out any reason for it. She had a few days off work prior so was just chilling in field (no galloping about / excitement) and is on a low carb, high oil diet. Vets doing blood tests to check for pssm. Meantime, Ive read high vit e and selenium are good for horses prone to this. Can anyone recommend any supplements? I can only find selenavite e, not sure if its best?

I would give vit E because that is what I did with one and it worked.

Selenavite E won't deliver a high enough dose of E. I would give something like 10000iu per day of vit E. Progressive earth or forage plus do suitable ones. Look for natural vit E, quality counts with vit E.

You will have to give selenium separately. You only give a small dose of se. Overdosing is very dangerous so it is no use getting a combined vit e/selenium product.
Most normal supplements have sufficient selenium otherwise look on the forage plus pages to buy it separately.


this is the vit E I use.

Natural Vitamin E oil equine feed supplement for immune system health.

Progressive Earth natural Vitamin E oil for immune system support and muscle health in ponies and horses. Essential vitamin equine health.

progressive-earth.com

 

[shortstuff99]

Is she cold? Mine ties up if she is cold. Needs to wear warmer rugs then you would think.

 

[MagicMelon]

I would give vit E because that is what I did with one and it worked.

Selenavite E won't deliver a high enough dose of E. I would give something like 10000iu per day of vit E. Progressive earth or forage plus do suitable ones. Look for natural vit E, quality counts with vit E.

You will have to give selenium separately. You only give a small dose of se. Overdosing is very dangerous so it is no use getting a combined vit e/selenium product.
Most normal supplements have sufficient selenium otherwise look on the forage plus pages to buy it separately.


this is the vit E I use.

Natural Vitamin E oil equine feed supplement for immune system health.

Progressive Earth natural Vitamin E oil for immune system support and muscle health in ponies and horses. Essential vitamin equine health.

progressive-earth.com

Thanks, Ill write an update below as Ive just had a call from the vet. Maybe you could advise if you think vit E would still help

 

[MagicMelon]

Is she cold? Mine ties up if she is cold. Needs to wear warmer rugs then you would think.

Im careful about the cold, I rug them up every night no matter what (NE Scotland so nights are often chilly even mid summer) and she'd actually been in a MW rug up until then as its been so wet and chilly last few days here. So I really cant imagine she was cold. But yes, Ill be careful of that thank you

 

[MagicMelon]

So vet has just called with blood test results and say a muscle enzyme was only mildly elevated and everything else fine, so that wouldnt suggest she was tying up yesterday. She cant explain what else it was though! So now Im at a loss and of course worried in case it happens again. Yesterday morning I went out to give her breakfast as normal, she was standing down the field and would only walk up a short bit then stop until she got to me (not like her). She looked very stiff in her back end. Her heave line was visible and her muscle on both sides - worse on the left which is also the leg she has a shiver, was spasming and solid. Im not great with all the muscles but googling it says it was the oblique abdominus internus area. She tyed up last year so I presumed it was the same again and called the vet. Vet took blood test and said could be that, couldnt find anything else wrong with her but she was clearly unhappy/very quiet so on course of danilon. An hour after danilon she was at least grazing but still sore. Todays she seems back to normal again, muscle looks fine. Vet wondered if it was PSSM but her blood test doesnt suggest it is (based on the one he checked for, I know theres a few forms). She has always had a shiver in her near hind - she picks it up tight and places it down as shes grazing / standing getting groomed etc. but shows no signs of it when ridden. She had been kicking a bit in general night before the incident as the midgies were horrendous. I wondered if her doing this had triggered this somehow? Has anyone got any ideas as to what on earth this was?

 

[teapot]

Eating something or being bitten by something could be plausable causes

 

[MagicMelon]

Eating something or being bitten by something could be plausable causes

I cant think what she could have eaten, shes in the same paddock she's always in, same feed (not even a new bag in the past 2 weeks). Bite-wise, we only have midgies here. Its so bizarre.

 

[HopOnTrot]

I knew a horse once that used to “tie up” but it turned out to be kissing spines, it was a very atypical presentation IMO but she would tuck up and stagger behind, I seem to remember it would happen after hard work (it was a very long time ago so details are hazy in my mind)

 

[ester]

I knew a horse once that used to “tie up” but it turned out to be kissing spines, it was a very atypical presentation IMO but she would tuck up and stagger behind, I seem to remember it would happen after hard work (it was a very long time ago so details are hazy in my mind)

I knew one that presented like this after an event, so presumed possible tie up but was also KS as bloods were negative.

 

[MagicMelon]

 

[MagicMelon]

Thanks guys, shes not showing any other signs of KS though? Other than this episode and one last April which we did put down to tying up, I have no other concerns. Riding-wise she's absolutely fine, jumping fine, behaviour is normal etc. basically showing no signs of any back pain?

 

[teapot]

I cant think what she could have eaten, shes in the same paddock she's always in, same feed (not even a new bag in the past 2 weeks). Bite-wise, we only have midgies here. Its so bizarre.

Could be something you may not notice in the grazing - both plant and animal wise.

Friend's horse did something similar last year for no obvious reason - yard owner ended up wondering whether he'd rolled on something!

 

[ester]

Thanks guys, shes not showing any other signs of KS though? Other than this episode and one last April which we did put down to tying up, I have no other concerns. Riding-wise she's absolutely fine, jumping fine, behaviour is normal etc. basically showing no signs of any back pain?

This one hadn't either, owner had had him years hence going BE100 the day before. It really was a bit bizarre, was also pondered if sore in all 4 feet for some reason. Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[Britestar]

Could she be coming into season. My old girl has a few incidents when she was younger where we thought she had injured her back.

Turned out she was basically having the equivalent of bad period pains

 

[MagicMelon]

Could she be coming into season. My old girl has a few incidents when she was younger where we thought she had injured her back.

Turned out she was basically having the equivalent of bad period pains

She doesnt seem to be coming into season, showing no signs today and shes usually pretty obvious. Ill keep an eye next few days.

 

[shortstuff99]

My horses tying up is never the official tying up, in that she doesn't have raised muscle enzymes etc but it is the same symptoms so I class it as tying up. Only happens when she gets cold or eats too much.

 

[MereChristmas]

A friend had a pony that ‘tied up’. She was tested and found to be low in selenium. Their land was low in selenium too. Apparently some horse do not absorb the selenium from a supplement effectively so pony had a selenium injection annually. When she was sold the new owner was told to keep the pony tested.
Please check this information is up to date as this was ages ago.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

silly suggestion but (atypical) "stringhalt"?

 

[MagicMelon]

A friend had a pony that ‘tied up’. She was tested and found to be low in selenium. Their land was low in selenium too. Apparently some horse do not absorb the selenium from a supplement effectively so pony had a selenium injection annually. When she was sold the new owner was told to keep the pony tested.
Please check this information is up to date as this was ages ago.

Yeah my areas land is generally seen as low selenium. Can they check selenium levels from her blood test I wonder (or presumably they've probably chucked her blood now)?

 

[DiNozzo]

Colic? Atypical but seems more likely than sore feet

 

[Melody Grey]

Colic? Atypical but seems more likely than sore feet

I was going to suggest colic or a virus- mine looked tied up with abdominal pain that turned out to be a virus, was still eating/ drinking/ pooing fairly normally but looking distinctly colicky and uncomfortable.

 

[MereChristmas]

Yeah my areas land is generally seen as low selenium. Can they check selenium levels from her blood test I wonder (or presumably they've probably chucked her blood now)?

I think I recall there being something about the blood test being affected by a selenium supplement and therefore not being accurate. I think my friend had to stop the selenium supplement for a while then the pony had the blood test, then the injection.

 

[SEL]

Vet won't have tested for selenium unless you ask specifically and low selenium levels can definitely cause muscular issues. I'd ask for them to test selenium and vitamin E levels.

Mine does have PSSM but she's had some odd episodes which don't really show up in bloods. I'm on low selenium soil so I am carefully supplementing.

 

[PurBee]

Its interesting you mention midges swarming just before this happening to your horse.
We have colossal midge swarms where we’re literally breathing them in - i have pictures of them covering our kitchen windows on a damp warm early evening!

I’ve noticed personally that being bitten by many of them sets off an immune reaction of inflammation. With inflammation i feel very tired, exhausted for no reason, muscle aches. With horse flies i get the same reaction from a single bite. The exhaustion and overall weakness i feel once my immune system has been triggered by biting insects is very notable. I could literally take a nap, im so tired. The stress from midges in particular attacking me and biting me everywhere has me so wound-up, i’m exhausted by the adrenaline stress of them!

My horses are used to midge bites now, but first exposure caused hives and a big immune reaction. Secondary and further exposure didnt cause such a skin reaction but when they’ve hatched and are ridiculous numbers, my horses were bothered, stressed, and i noticed next day they roll more, are prone to agitated/very mild colic-type behaviour.
It’s lead me to ponder the link between the immune system flaring due to any stressor, and the downstream effects on gut, energy levels etc while the body is in acute adrenaline and inflammation mode.

I have mitigation methods of midge swarms and protect the horses when theyve hatched, which is when theyre worst at swarming and biting.
Their turn-out at this time of year isnt dependent on weather, but the degree of midges each day! Hatchings are worst which is 4 times per season roughly.
The horses would much rather be in their barn than the fields when theyre bad. The barn area is a dry-lot area, midges hate dry conditions…they dehydrate and die.

When we consider the link between adrenaline being released due to stress of many biting insects attacking us or our horses, adrenaline ‘eats’ muscle rapidly to enable flight, it pushes the liver to throw glycogen into the blood stream for energy to flight, so there is a possibility that prolonged adrenalin spike due to erratic biting insect stress = raised muscle enzymes = presenting similar to tying-up symptoms in the horse.

It’s a theory and might be possible? (she says as midges try to bite her while typing this!!)

 

[CarlungM]

Years ago a horse I had did this and the cause was a virus so the vet prescribed a tonic, high dose vitamins and rest and it never happened again.