Nurse Mare Farms

M

magic104

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www.jc-countryside.co.uk
Just seen this on FB, is this just isolated to the US or do other countries also treat their animals in this disgusting manner? From the gist of it, they breed mares to provide a doner mare for an orphaned TB foal. There own foals well this paragraph tells the story

"Nurse mare foals are born to mothers that are bred solely for milk production. Mares of different breeds but many times larger breeds such as drafts are bred by nurse mare farmers. After foaling, the mares are leased to a farm, typically a farm involved with the various race industries. They become a mother for a more "expensive" foal. Their biological foals were historically left to die, killed or were slaughter bound. Have you heard of pony leather or pony skin? Foals are also skinned and their hides used for high end leather products. Many times, during the time the mare is leased, the "expensive foals" farm is required to get the mare back in foal. This is why the foals usually are mixed breeds and unable to be registered, because they will breed back to whatever is available, even the teaser stallion horses or ponies. So the nurse mare farmers make a profit on leasing the mare and then also get the bare bred back for free which in turn brings him the same money next year."

How can the human race justify breeding one animal only to provide a host for another? I know worse things happen, especially where money is concerned. I just do not understand how this is not illegal, how it is not infringing on animal rights!
 
Yes.. they have these in Australia too.. HOWEVER!!!!I have not heard that the nurse mare farms that the stud I have worked at used killed their foals or just left them to die???.... (we have our own nurse mares.. but we used all of them for fostering this year....so had to borrow a nurse mare.)

Yes they are usually draft mares.. ours are Clydesdale x or pure clydesdale!!

Our foals are all bucket reared if their mares are used for fostering..... and they are only used for our mares (we don't loan our mares out).. so if none of the tb's need fostering.. all the nurse mares raise their foals... all the nurse mare foals are treated much as the tb's are... they get wormed.. vaccinated... trimmed, handled etc....

ALL the foals are then either sold to nice homes. once weaned.. usually friends of the staff.. or to the staff.. or the stud will sometimes keep the fillies (as a future nurse mare - although they are broken in if someone wants to compete them) and the occasional colt is kept as a teaser once its grown up!
 
Right I am trying to get my head round this as I have since read that these TB mares have not even died, they have just been sent off to be bred from again! So why then when 1000's of TB mares can go to stud with their foals, there are others that can't & have to have a nurse mare?

What seems to be the situation is that a foal is being hand reared, instead of this being the TB's offspring it has to be the nurse-maids offspring instead, why? Sorry it is a sick practice, you deprive one foal just so another can be raised when it's own dam is still available. The industry is also churning out excess foals just so the TB mares can go back to stud without their own offspring. Jesus Christ, please tell me I am reading this wrong, I hope I am incorrect, because it is sick if not.

Every animal deserves to be treated humanly. If it has been bred for food, it still deserves a humane life while it is in our care. Who the hell are we to cause distress to animals in the name of money! And dont tell me it is not distressful for either mare to be yanked from her foal (and in one case then go through the process of taking on another). That it is not distressful for either foal.

"Travel is very risky for newborn racing foals, and insurance costs prohibit the foal from traveling with it’s mother. At this point, a nurse mare is hired to raise the thoroughbred foal. In order for the nurse mare to have milk, she must have given birth to her own baby."

The nurse-mares offspring have been called a by product, "A by-product is a secondary or incidental product deriving from a manufacturing process, a chemical reaction or a biochemical pathway, and is not the primary product or service being produced. A by-product can be useful and marketable, or it can be considered waste." excuse me!! NO THIS IS A LIVING ANIMAL. If there ever was a reason for the JC to change their thoughts on AI this is it.

There would be no excuse then for this mis-treatment of an animal that has bought us pleasure, & helped us shape our world. We seem to forget what the horse has contributed to the human world. He has given up his life in OUR battles, he has provided us with transport, he has fed us & he has earned us money in the sporting field. And yet there are those that still have to get that extra £ of flesh from him.
 
If I had a TB foal, which was potentially worth £50k, and it needed a foster mare, then I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Should we consider cattle in a different light to horses? Dairy bred bull calves are generally shot within a few days of birth, and the cow becomes a milk producing machine. That's how we receive our milk.

I accept that we don't view horses as we do cattle, but from the ethical viewpoint, is there really any difference?

Alec.
 
It is as far as I am aware a practice done over here with cob foster dams. The mare's are generally even covered with some of the decent TB stallions but as far as I am aware the foals are not killed but bucket reared and the TB foal put on the cob dam. I know it is a practice still in Ireland as well. I know of a lovely horse who came over from Ireland....was out of a cob foster mare and by Saddlers Wells! So some are very well bred too.
 
Ive known a few of them also.
Don't know much about it tbh, but do know someone who lost a mare foaling a couple of years ago. One call to Newmarket, £1000 and 6 hours later she had a foster mare.
If it is true, it is sickening.
 
Foals won't be fostered without due cause!!!

Sometimes... if the mare has colic surgery... the foal will be taken off her to allow her to recover esp as its quite stressful.. mares sometimes dry up.

If the mare isn't producing enough milk to support her foal....
Basically.. if there is a problem with the mare.. that is when the foal is likely to be fostered.

"Travel is very risky for newborn racing foals, and insurance costs prohibit the foal from traveling with it’s mother. At this point, a nurse mare is hired to raise the thoroughbred foal." - NOT CORRECT!!! I know that in oz.. if they are concerned about the foal.. they leave it behind... i know of mares travelling 12hrs to be covered and then 12hrs back without their foal..and are reunited afterwards.... but the majority will travel with their foals!!!!


the nurse mare's offspring are the ones that are hand reared.. because foals do better when raised by another mare! - all foals take to the bucket with no problem.. and are given either the other nurse foals or a nanny mare (old retired broodmare) as company!

Until you see how they foster and take care of the nurse mares and their off spring..... don't dismiss this useful service that they provide!!!! Yes it is a bit stressful.. but within 24hrs.. the foal is generally fostered... and nurse foal has settled with its nanny!!!

At the end of the day.. it does all come down to Money!! The tb foal is worth a lot more than the nurse mare foal... but they aren't neglected or mistreated... (the ones i've seen aren't anyway!!!)
 
Alec Swan said:
If I had a TB foal, which was potentially worth £50k, and it needed a foster mare, then I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Should we consider cattle in a different light to horses? Dairy bred bull calves are generally shot within a few days of birth, and the cow becomes a milk producing machine. That's how we receive our milk.

I accept that we don't view horses as we do cattle, but from the ethical viewpoint, is there really any difference?

Alec.
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I agree.

Provided the foster mare's own offspring is well cared for, and without going into the "emotional distress" issue - which is debatable, whether you are talking about horses or dairy cattle and human nature means we are often too prone to anthropomorphism - the only diference between a horse and a cow is the fact that some of us think of horses as pets and of cattle as livestock.
 
Alec Swan said:
If I had a TB foal, which was potentially worth £50k, and it needed a foster mare, then I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Should we consider cattle in a different light to horses? Dairy bred bull calves are generally shot within a few days of birth, and the cow becomes a milk producing machine. That's how we receive our milk.

I accept that we don't view horses as we do cattle, but from the ethical viewpoint, is there really any difference?

Alec.
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I am well aware of how milk is produced & that because of the issue with bull calfs a lot of the dairy cows are put to beef bulls so there is an outlet for their offspring (the meat market).

The difference is;

Going by the reports, the Nurse Mare does not always have the best care herself, simple things like feet, teeth, worming etc. She is producing foal after foal which then has to be found a home. Because there is no care in their breeding most offspring are mixed & have no papers. They become a burden on charities and depend on people adopting them. Why just so they can provide milk to a foal whose own dam is more then capable of feeding & looking after it!! SO NO there is a BIG difference between a horse and a cow that you mention above. And no the Nurse Mare foals are not always well cared for. My horses are not pets, but neither are they here to be abused. They have the right to basic care, that includes ensuring they are innoculated, that they have their teeth checked, their feet seen to, wormed, fed and listened to when they are telling us they are not happy/comfortable/in pain.

Nurse mare farms have been in existence for the past 30 years serving the sport horse (i.e., Thoroughbred Racing Horses) breeding industry. The sole purpose of these farms is to breed healthy open mares and turn them into lactating mares through pregnancy and birth. These mothers are called nurse mares or wet mares. After foaling, the mare is made available for lease to a farm that wants a wet mare for their sport prospect foal.

The original use of a nurse mare was primarily by people who tragically lost a mare during birth, leaving a foal motherless. With mare mortality rates dropping due to advances in equine reproduction and parturition, the demand for nurse mares should be decreasing. This is not the case. The demand for nurse mares is increasing with unethical sport horse breeders wanting to relieve their athletic mares of nursing responsibilities, allowing them to return to sport competitions or be quickly bred back for another high priced foal.


It's inhumane enough that the sport horse foals are yanked from their dams unnecessarily, but the real victims of the nurse mare industry are the birth foals of the nurse mares: "The Nurse Mare Foals".

When the day comes for their mothers to be shipped off to another farm, their fates are sealed. The newly orphaned foals are usually euthanized, auctioned, abandoned or sold to the leather industry to be used as 'pony skin'.

There are even cases where the entire 'crop' of nurse mare foals is put in a corral and left to starve to death! They are thrown away like trash, because they have served their main purpose, and are no longer needed. Some nurse mare farms will occasionally give the foals away, but most sell them discreetly for profit.


With most states lacking in stricter laws on the humane treatment of livestock animals, which horses are usually classified as, nurse mare farms are able to do what they want and are recognized as legitimate livestock operations. We embrace nurse mare farms that provide the legitimate and ethical service of surrogates for orphans, yet the same operation may be producing orphans. It is a profitable business for both the nurse mare farms and the breeders.

This is just another one of America's "Dirty Little Secrets", along with Horse Slaughter and the quiet elimination of our nation's wild mustang population. Rescues across America are working to save Nurse Mare Foals whenever possible. This is a monumental commitment, both financially, physically, and emotionally.

First one has to purchase the baby from the breeding farms; transport the tiny animals to the rescue; and THEN the real work begins! Foaling season for the Thoroughbred industry runs mainly from January through March, so that prospective TB foals will all turn two at around the same time. This means its deep winter for many rescues; so the babies must be kept warm. Milk replacer is expensive, and the person working with the foals must be committed enough to keep the babies fed warm formula along with their other usual needs.

So why bother? Because how can we turn our backs on the smallest victims of mankind's greed?

How can you get involved? Donate Today! Research this online; and start making some noise! We need to get some things changed in this country for the animals...and this is one of those silent horrors that we can no longer overlook. Thank you for your time and concern.

As you & GinnieRedwings dont have a problem with it perhaps you could offer this service, or perhaps you already do. Funny you dont like starting horses or breeding from them before 4yrs or is it 3yrs, but you think it ok to breed a foal just to provide milk for another so his dam can either return to be bred without the hassle of her offspring or back into competition. Neither justified, with embryo transfer the mare does not even need to carry the foal.
 
Simple answer to a lot of the problems would be the TB breeding industry embracing the modern world and allowing AI and ET.

No mares would have to travel anywhere with their foals , no stallions would have the stress of shuttling, less of a disease risk of a worldwide epidemic and any mare not having the best of records as a mother could have her foal transferred directly into the "foster" mare, that way some mares could continue their racing career whilst still having babies, also you would negate the risk of a very valuable TB mare dying from birthing problems !!

Ah but it's not natural, and one stallion would rule the world !
 
Most large studs have their own nurse mares. The info you have posted is a very extremist view and also of course is from the US. I know for a fact that the foster mares' foals that I have seen (both in ireland and the US) are hand reared until weaning age and rehomed. I know many people who have taken one or 2 on - there are many UK event horses bred on such farms eg Bits and Pieces. The stud i worked on offered them first to staff and then sold them to the general public. Their list of prospective puchasers was always full and often had waiting list. Im sure there are a few less people readily taking on weanlings now but there has also been a reduction in foster mare/foal numbers due to the fct that foalings are down by approx 30% in Ireland now(from 2007's record crop).
I assure you that foster foals in Ireland and Uk are neither soldfor pony skin nor left to die in a corral though I appreciate that in the current climate some may endup being euthanased - unlikely to go for slaughter at weaning age as there would not be enough meat on them.
Secondly - foster mares have never ime been used to transport a mare for covering - I have often seen ares with young foals at foot being transported to the UK/France etc for covering. Those wishing to have a mare covered in the US usually travel them over a little while prior to foaling. Foster mares are used as posted above - to allow sick mares time to recover (eg from surgery, colic, laminitis etc), if the mare has previously had mastitis/has little milk or if the mare has an injury which limits her ability to move around the field with a youngster and occasionally ( and this is the only perhaps "needless" use of a foster mare i have come across) if the dam is a windsucker/weaver to prevent the foal from picking up the habit.

To my mind there is little difference between the way dairy cows are bred/managed and foster mares. As regards dairy farmers using beef bulls -1) this is not THAT common practice 2) that is done for profit purposes and the end purpose is the same - they all get killed within a few years anyway.

Lastly, the foster mares I have seen have all been very well looked after - feet regularly trimmed, plenty of hay/feed through winter (most winter out - as do many of the TB mares!), wormed regularly and most are well handled. Most studs will cross about half of the foster mares with a clyde/gypsy cob stallion and the rest with a TB to ensure that many of the foster foals are of a useful sort for the sporthorse industry and that they will also have a few fillies to retain.
Quite a few of the "famous" gypsy cob lines over here originated from some of these foster mare farms - as a couple of travellers have proudly told me! ;)

I guess I dont see much wrong with it as long as the horses (and mares in particular) welfare is taken into account. All of those I encounter have their own nurse mares (and for their clients' foals) so "profit" from these mares does not play a big part in this case.
 
If you are really that bothered by it..why don't you arrange to go and see how they are really run in person, rather than going on other peoples claims!!!

The farms I have seen in Australia DO NOT treat their mares like that.. nor the nurse foals!!!! I'm not saying all are 5* but lets be honest...... there are people in this world treating their own kids like crap too.... so its bound to happen to the animals... (not that I'm saying its right..) BUT DON'T tar every farm with the same brush until you have seen a few for yourself
 
I know someone who has an offspring of a cob mare who went on to foster a TB foal. There was none of the horrible practices mentioned here though. TB foals are generally born Jan/Feb and "foster" mare foals are born much later, so their own foals are old enough to be weaned (5 months plus) by the time they may be needed for a TB foal - their own foals are then sold on.

I would not have a problem with this - but abhor the other methods mentioned here.
 
I cannot comment on what goes on in the US, but in the UK, I can assure you that foster mares and foals are extremely well cared for! All those that I know are treated exactly the same as the TB mares they live alongside, with the exception of having to do the job of fostering.
I can also assure you that the 'by products' are also very well cared for, some will be old enough to be early weaned onto hard feed, others may be bucket fed with other foster foals, I've even heard of one foster mare suckling 2 foster foals. Some even do their own job by keeping an older orphaned TB company. Everything is done as considerately as possible.
The foster foals are most certainly not skinned, shot or any such nonsense. They are often well bred individuals and actually quite sort after nowadays due to successes in their own careers.
My first 'by product' horse was 4 when I got him, he was and still is a cracking well balanced horse! I sold him to a lovely home several yrs ago.
And then I brought this one from a large stud as a yearling, doesn't look like much of a 'by product' to me!!!! Looks very much alive and happy to me, he's 4 this year and I totally adore him!
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magic104 said:
As you & GinnieRedwings dont have a problem with it perhaps you could offer this service, or perhaps you already do.
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WTF?????

magic104 said:
This is just another one of America's "Dirty Little Secrets", along with Horse Slaughter and the quiet elimination of our nation's wild mustang population.
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... and along with not providing basic healthcare for millions of its citizens, who can't afford to go to hospital when they are ill or get their teeth seen to because it's not covered by basic Medicare. Come on Magic, how about starting a fund to save these people now?

SmilingMadly said:
Golly, do you write for the daily mail Magic? Quite sensationalist
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LOL LOL LOL :D

:rolleyes:

ETA - Love your boy NikkiPortia, gorgeous!
 
Magic, perhaps you should do further research into actual practices of those who utilise foster mares. Currently you seem to be reading and reproducing on here an extreme and one sided POV. Perhaps with more balance research you would be able to form a more informed opinion.

The ONLY time I have ever known of a foal born to a foster mare being PTS was when the foal was not viable. Therefore making the mare unusable for that season, for obvious reasons, hardly a win win situation, if they are for financial gain only.

I too have known of foster mares who will taken on and raise another foster mare's foal, whilst that mare is used for another foal. Mares like this are invaluable!

Some farms/studs where there are foster mares make sure that the foster mares foal about 4 to 2 months prior to the beginning of the actual foaling season, in the Northern Hemisphere this is January. Therefore more often than not in these cases, the foster foals are old enough and strong enough to be weaned on to solids and sometimes onto a bucket and solids, depending on their age.

There are some farms that breed pure bred heavy draft horses of a rare breed, like Suffolk Punches, Clydesdales, Cleveland Bays etc, for the mares to be used as foster mares if required - do you really think that pure bred foals of these breeds would be PTS?

IME foster mares are used for the following scenarios -
* The natural dam dies
* The natural dam has had colic surgery/the foaling turned into an emergency C. section delivery, necessitating a long period of box rest. In these instances keeping the foal on the mare would actually be detrimental to both of them. The mare needs the rest and foal needs to go out and grow and play with contemporaries.
* The natural dam was injured, again necessitating a long period of box rest. However, having been deemed fit for travel (by top vets) to the continent, the mare was shipped to be covered to the stallion she was booked to. However her foal had long since been fostered.

These 'by' products of which you speak so scathingly, are surprisingly useful, just like the one pictured on this thread and the already mentioned Bits And Pieces. I've known ones that have made fabulous Hunters, wonderful family companions, shown and won at County level, qualified for HOYS, jumped to Grade B, competed at Advanced Medium. I know of one foster mare herself who competed at a very high level. Foster mares live the same life that the TB mares lead. Regular farriery, vet work, worming etc.

I have known of one Foster Mare Farm in the USA. They bred pure Haflingers, Vanners and Brabants. The foals from these mares were either kept to replace their dams in the Foster Mare herd, sold on to breed enthusiasts for a fair sum (esp the Vanners) or were sold for meat at about the age of 3/4 yrs, having lived a great natural life until that point.
 
SusannaF said:
Magic104 – I think you need to tone down the hysteria before you say anything else libellous about people you don't know, and about a system you don't seem to have witnessed firsthand.
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I have to agree especially when you are looking at the US, which we all know has very different ethics towards animals than we do. If you were talking about a set up in the UK that did this, I'd be up in arms too, but you're not and until you know how these things work properly, then perhaps it's better to stay quiet or do as SmilingMadly suggests........

SmilingMadly said:
Magic, perhaps you should do further research into actual practices of those who utilise foster mares. Currently you seem to be reading and reproducing on here an extreme and one sided POV. Perhaps with more balance research you would be able to form a more informed opinion.
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I'm biased of course as I have reared two foster mares foals from just under three weeks of age. Normally, they would have been a lot older before the TB mares were foaling, but it was a year when everything due early January seemed to foal a lot later; these were both five weeks later born than planned and it just happened that two TB mares foaled and had problems a fortnight after they had been born; one proplapsed and died on the operating table in Newmarket and the other mare, a maiden, was intent on killing her foal and anyone handling her in spite of being given every chance so a foster mare was called in for that too; she hasn't been bred from since. Because both of the foster foals were so young it was decided to see if they could find anyone to rear them together; it was the first time the stud, old and well respected, had ever had this dilemma because the foster foals had always been old enough to be managed at the stud but with two hourly feeds needed for at least the first month, they just did not have the resources to cope with them at that time which is when muggins here stepped in. Like NP's Apollo, they've both grown into very nice horses; they were out of cob mares and by the TB teasers so boast grand sires such as Sadlers Wells and Gone West and should have decent careers ahead of them.

No, I can't speak for all studs in the UK but we have a long way to go before we're anywhere near the US for callousness so don't tar all with the same brush unless you know the proper facts.
 
rachi0 said:
Until you see how they foster and take care of the nurse mares and their off spring..... don't dismiss this useful service that they provide!!!! Yes it is a bit stressful.. but within 24hrs.. the foal is generally fostered... and nurse foal has settled with its nanny!!!

QUOTE]

Sums it up perfectly. :)

Is there a link to that FB page? :confused: Also, noting the 'historically' reference to what happened to these foals. If that - as in foals left coralled to die - did and still continues to happen, it IS a disgrace but you cannot tar every foster mare service with the same brush. But if such emotive prose whips up a tornado of hysteria, indignation and donations..

There's a myriad of welfare issues to get worked-up over in the horse world; live transport for slaughter, Premarin mare farms, mustang and brumby control methods and now the plight of Egyptian horses with the collapse of their tourist industry, not to mention welfare issues closer to home. Logical step is donate to legitimate charities, like the Brooke, who have the expertise and resources to deal with these crisises on an ongoing basis, not a 5-minute wonder on a forum/Daily Mail story.

The reason I'm responding is because we were in the dreaded situation of needing a foster mare last year and ended up using such a service.

Lost our much-loved mare with post-foaling colic last May, leaving a 2-day old colt. The standard response in such a nightmare situation is a: look for a foster mare or b: hand-rear the foal. First is the better solution as the foal is reared as a young horse, not a pet or 'baby horse', and mare's milk is naturally better for a foal's gut than artificial replacer.

So you look for a foster mare which means waiting for another breeder to have a similar misfortune in that timeframe. Murphy's Law, none available on the NI Horse Board's 'matchmaking service' or ringing round a very large contacts list. A 'surrogate nanny agency' was always a possibility - of course, we had heard the horror stories too about one particular dealer/service provider rumoured to shoot foals so their dams could be used as foster mares.

You don't pay too much attention to rumours until the proverbial gun is put to your head and you have a young foal going downhill. Then you have to think about coming down from the moral high ground but under no circumstances, would we have dealt with such an individual.

Equally, there were the horror stories about ad-hoc foster mare arrangements going wrong; requests for expensive covering sires; changes of heart when the mare owner wanted her back prematurely, foals getting injured when the mare rejects them or expenses demands at the end of the 'arrangement'.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, a friend had the same horrible experience of losing a mare a month beforehand and vouched for the 'nanny agency' they used for their orphan. A veterinary work colleague had vetted the premises - literally - during its Dept of Agriculture visit and it passed with flying colours. The foals went to a neighbouring farmer where they were bucket-fed - his farm was also visited as part of the inspection.

Best decision in a horrible week was ringing to book our 'nanny'. Owner delivered a placid cob mare less than 2 hours later and 15 minutes later she had already taken to her new charge who thrived overnight. By the next morning, she hollered if he went out of sight and over the next six months, we all grew very attached to this equine saint.

When we returned her to her owner, Supernanny marched down the ramp, looked around as if to say 'Right, where's the next one?' and went back to the barn where the other mares were on deep beds of clean straw with full hayracks. Yard was immaculate, I've seen much scruffier 'professionals' yards and all the mares were the picture of good health.

A straightforward, business transaction which actually worked out cheaper than 6 months of foal replacer with the benefits including a foal reared in a more natural environment or not waiting for another breeder to lose a foal for you to benefit from their similar misfortune.

I can't be guilt-tripped about using a foster mare service - not in the slightest :) - as that decision was the silver lining in a black week. Do I feel bad that our nanny's foal went off to be bucket-fed? No. As per the second paragraph, there are a hell of a lot worse things in the horse world to feel bad about.

But our 'nanny agency' experience may reassure other breeders as to what to do if unfortunately they find themselves in a similar scenario and are looking at all the options.
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