OCD and breeding?

Birker2020

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I am not sure which section to put this in on the forum so I have put it in here and also in the veterinary section. Someone I know sold a horse to some people she was friendly with who in turn sold the horse on to a lady who wanted the horse for ridden work. They did not sell the mare on because she had started exhibiting bad behaviour with them, merely because they wanted to find a good ridden home for her as they were fond of her and were not sure exactly where she would have ended up if her previous owner had tried to sell her. Following problems with the mare rearing, bucking etc the new owner had the vet out to investigate and it has since transpired that the mare has been diagnosed with OCD as well as other problems. Rather than put her down or find a companion home for her she wishes to try and sell her or put her out on loan as a brood mare and the advert she is running says quite clearly that she cannot be ridden anymore. Now there are very strong feelings that OCD is a heridatary condition and any foal that this young mare breeds could very well go on to develop OCD with many years of steroid injections, painkillers, investigations and possible surgery and financial loss and heartbreak for the owners of any foals bred. Surely there must be some law against selling a horse to be used as a brood mare when it is known that she is carrying a disease which has more than a fair chance of being passed on to her foals? Am i right in this assumption? This mare is currently for sale and I feel awful for anyone who gets caught up in breeding from this poor creature. Please be aware if you are looking to buy/loan a mare or have responded to any adverts regarding this in the last week or so. I can't really say anymore otherwise I could get into trouble myself but what should I do if you breeding people do agree with me that OCD is heridatary. Sureley this is breaking the law by using this animal in this way?
 

Ladyfresha1

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It may suprise you to know that some of the best stallions of the last few decades have OCD. OCD is thought to also be connected to growth and diet. It may just be that larger horses are more prone because of their size, growth etc. There is no firm scientific evidence that it is heridatary. For me the jury is still out.

It is also interesting to read some of the top European breeders views on OCD, some of whom think the it is the new navicular, something that sometimes happens but can be treated and isn't so much of a problem.

However, if the mare is cronically lame with OCD, I would not breed from her. Her foals would not be particularly marketable as when OCD is mentioned people tend to run a mile! If she is upfront with buyers about why it can't be ridden and they choose to breed from her that is up to them. I think as long as she is honest about it she is doing nothing illegal.

Like I said, for me the jury is out!
 

druid

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Yes, it's heritable - estimates range from 0.23 to 0.66 heritability depending on type/grade and joint affected.

Just chuck "equine osteochondrosis" into PubMed and read a few papers!
 

koeffee

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then maybe we should stop useing any horse with alme, jalisco b, quidam de revel blood lines then as alme had it and many other top stallions do an did. you only have to google a few and the names pop???
 

Halfstep

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The KWPN is making a concerted effort to trace progeny with OCD and even de-approve stallions who pass it on. This is a really important development IMHO. So many horses coming out of the continent have "had a chip out" - ok fine, maybe most of these will never had a problem but should we really be breeding horses that need surgical intervention before they are even broken in?????
 

JanetGeorge

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I have a mare - herself remarkably sound for her age (20) who has given me 6 foals by the same stallion. One had a chip removed (successfully) - the rest are fine. That one foal developed symptoms after she and her dam were brought in as foal had a foot abcess. Mare was a bit poor and I was giving her some extra feed - foal was eating most of it!!

I also had a TB mare who - with her second last foal - lost a LOT of weight in lactation (diagnosed as a 'sinister' heart murmur). I gave the mare extra feed - foal got OCD! Mare was already in foal again - we didn't think she'd make it - but she gave birth, reared the foal - getting thinner and thinner - but I resisted the temptation to give her extra feed, weaned the foal early and put the mare down. THAT foal is fine - as are her earlier foals.

Based on my own experience, I believe OCD is more likely due to a growth spurt due to changes in feeding - although I accept there may well be a hereditable element to it.
 

Ladyfresha1

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Myself, I think it is a number of different things. As Keoffee said, if people want to get rid of OCD, if it is hereditary, we should not breed from any horses with Alme, Jalisco or Ramiro bloodlines!

Could it be hereditary, could we help prevent it by better feeding practices etc?

As I said, for me the jury is still out. There is evidence of it being caused by other factors as well.
 

sarahhelen1977

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There is an advert on the back of the KWPN's IDS magazine for Havens horse feed. Their Ferto-LAC 3 Broodmare Cubes contain a "multi-calcium-complex = 3-fold calcium-provision (with perfect release) to prevent orthopedic diseases like OCD"
Maybe it has something to do with foetal development?
Their website is www.horsefeed.nl in case you want to have a look

ETS I have just had a quick look at the website, and it says that OCD is a multi-factorial disease, including heredity as a potential cause
 

Halfstep

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I don't deny that OCD is multi-factorial, but one of those factors is genetic - that is how the evidence is pointing anyway. Having had a horse operated on for OCD (successfully), its not something I would wish on any horse or owner. Just because vets are able to remove the chips doesn't mean we should breed horses prone to getting them!
 

magic104

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I am confused now, because I thought Stallions were screened for OCD & if they had it depending on the stud book could not grade. This was discussed earlier on H&H

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3121041/Main/3119691/

And this is part of an interview with Arnaud Evain

Do you get X-ray reports at a French Auction?
“Of course. Too many, sixteen per horse.”
Is OCD a problem?
“It is a large opportunity for the veterinary profession to make money. OCD is a problem, but lived with OCD at a fairly high level until we discovered how to read it on the x-rays. We now know quite well how to fix it. Less than 20% of OCD cases becomes a problem, and in the majority of those situations, surgery can fix the problem.
Back in the 70s we were talking about navicular, but thanks to the farrier, thanks to our feed suppliers and our vets, we have been able to live with that. If OCD had been a key point in the selection, you would never have heard of Ramiro, never heard of Almé, nor of Jalisco or any of those good stallions.”
Are stallions in France rejected on the basis of their x-rays like they are in Holland?
“No – and the Dutch will abandon that system eventually, it is just marketing. The Dutch will privately tell you that they are missing some good stallions because of this system. In France it is included as part of the information about the stallion, that is a must, and you must give the mare owner the OCD score of the horse. We can deal with OCD like we dealt with navicular. If you have a foal from a stallion that has OCD in both stifles then you must be careful with how heavy you let that foal become, that is the risk, but the day you give up taking risks, you give up breeding. Looking for a horse with no faults, you will end up with a horse with no quality. There are no miracles in this business of breeding, be pragmatic, be passionate and keep your eyes open.”
 

Wisnette

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Most of the articles I've read on what the KWPN are doing about OCD are in Dutch so I may not have all the details correct.... That's my caveat but this is my understanding for what its worth.
smile.gif


With the original system, if any chips/OCD showed up in the X-rays the stallions failed the vetting and couldn't be approved. Fullstop.

Despite this zero tolerance, the KWPN haven't so far managed to eradicate OCD so they have been doing quite a lot of research into it, including X-raying the youngstock by approved stallions. And they have found that some stallion's progeny have a higher incidence of OCD than others.

As a result, I think they are planning to X-ray a certain number of offspring from all newly approved stallions and work out an index that indicates how frequently a stallion's progeny are effected by OCD. i.e. despite the negative phenotype, they are trying to ascertain the stallion's genotype for OCD. They'll then publish that info along with all the other indices they produce and let mare owners make their choice.
 

TomReed

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Wisnette, some of your information is not correct.

The KWPN's x-ray evaluations are done by the University of Utrecht. The criteria do NOT select on the fetlock, so a chip in the fetlock is accepted. A chip in the hock , stifle, etc. is not accepted except in the relatively rare case of an international competitor that they let through despite a chip. They approved an Olympic jumper a few months ago (at the same time as they admitted Hickstead, who did not have an x-ray problem) that had a chip in the knee. Others have been admitted with a chip, navicular changes, etc.

I am expressing neither approval nor disapproval with this policy. I am simply stating what the policy is.
 

almorton

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[ QUOTE ]

the day you give up taking risks, you give up breeding. Looking for a horse with no faults, you will end up with a horse with no quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that sums it up nicely!
it would be nice to breed a horse with absolutely no faults.
yet how many of us have put grade A's in foal when they have done a tendon? !
or got navicular?
is an arthroscopy for ocd really worse than joint injections to 'maintain' the top jumpers?
how far will we go to maximize performance? who knows. i bet 20 years down the road, we will be doing things a lot more 'unethical' than this!
grin.gif
 

Wisnette

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Thanks for the extra info Tom. I'd forgotten about the erkende stallions. I should have said stallions that are presented for approval and go through the normal stallion selection process have to pass the vetting. You're quite right, the KWPN do individually recognise/approve certain other exceptional stallions, who don't go through the usual selection process and so don't always meet the veterinary requirements.

On another note, I wonder why the KWPN excludes the fetlocks? Is OCD less common there or less of a problem?
 

Halfstep

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OCD in fetlocks is thought to be less significant and has a far better prognosis than in the hock or stifle, usually. But I didn't realise that the KWPN excluded the fetlocks on their analysis.
 

Wisnette

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[ QUOTE ]
OCD in fetlocks is thought to be less significant and has a far better prognosis than in the hock or stifle, usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know that Halfstep. I've checked one of their English articles and the KWPN's program for X-raying offspring covers hocks, stifles, knees & 'pasterns'. I wonder when they are going to start publishing this new index. Should make interesting reading!!
 

Halfstep

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Yes, indeed!!! Very interesting. What do they mean by "pastern"??? Perhaps this means fetlock? Coffin joints maybe?

I still hold to the opinion that efforts should be made to ensure that OCD is being passed on genetically, and applaud the KWPN's efforts to trace its incidence in progeny.
 

ColourFan

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It would be an ideal situation if ALL Studbooks and/or Registers published the results of the medical tests!

I know of a number of stallions approved by studbooks on the WBFSH that have OCD, have a 'family' record of OCD, and yet have and are being used quite extensively.

A stallion does not necessarily have to have OCD itself to pass on! If he carries the genetic baggage, for example is heterozygous for that particular gene (or combination of genes), and he is crossed to a mare carrying similar baggage, in 25% of the offspring OCD will or can be expressed. Research of the genetic marker is definitely needed.
 

druid

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[ QUOTE ]
Research of the genetic marker is definitely needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's ongoing - part of the study is being done in Dublin
 
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