Odd hind leg action. Any ideas?

[shadowboy]

Hi guys decided against the little coloured having discussed it with instructor, she felt his movement was not good enough for dressage especially at the price they were asking. I have since been to see an absolute stunner KWPN gelding. Moves amazingly in trot and canter, and i mean AMAZING hes big and stunning too. Now the only thing i could pick him up on was an interesting off side hind action. The foot would leave the floor and swing out by about 3 cm before landing, although would land straight and overtracked well. This did not occur in trot or canter, it still occured on a bend. I beleive it to be his general way of going (you guys may think otherwise please feel free to say). The horse is well priced and is papered-from Ferro lines. If i want him ill have to move fast as i think he'll go quick but my concern is will this hind leg swing cause lameness in the future? Is he worth vetting, hes only 2 and out at grass so unfit. Please give your opinions either good or bad!
(sorry i also meant to ask is this dishing but with a hind???)

 

[Dotilas]

Sounds like a shiver... If it is a shiver, the problem is that they mostly get worse with less work. RosiiePosiieHunter has an old boy with a shiver and as she is not able to ride him as much to keep it manageable she is having him PTS. A girl at my yard bought a lovely KWPN, who has a shiver, although she didn't know that when she bought him so spent lots of money and time trying to sort it. He is fine though.

I'm not sure whether they can cause lameness, although if it gets more pronounced, they can injure the back of theur front legs.

 

[AmyMay]

If you are looking for a competition animal, then you have got to be getting one whose action is as good as possible.

This wouldn't be one I would be interested in.

 

[Tia]

Sounds like a mild form of Upward Fixation of the Patella. Very common in young horses of this age and generally as fitness increases it tends to go away. It isn't something that would worry me to be honest (IF that's what it is) but then I don't do dressage. Have a vet check him over first would be my advice.

I have a mare who has UFP. When I got her a few months ago she was REALLY bad......now? You can barely notice it. She is about to be moved into one of my hilly fields which should help her no end and should finally fix this problem.

Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[Always_late]

i'm sure the whole back end would be affected if its a shiver - or is a shiver different from the shivers?? If I was you I would have him vetted, then at the very least you'll know for future reference, which ever decision you make for this chap.

 

[Tierra]

Ive had a shiverer and he certainly never swung his hind leg out as described. We've also got one on the yard who won at inter 1 yesterday and he doesnt have any visible action issues at all.

If you want to follow the stereotypical tell tale signs for that, they should have issues walking backwards and are likely to snatch the hind leg in question away from you when you try to pick it up (then release, then snatch again like a nerve reflex problem).

That being said.... mine never had issues going backwards and nor does the one on the yard :|

From a dressage point of view... what level are you aiming to go to? Dishing in itself doesnt tend to get penalised at lower levels but at higher levels it can and often does become a problem. From which point in the leg is it swinging outwards? Hock area? Fetlock area? if so Id be concerned about unusual joint wear on the hock or fetlock even if they action is not being caused by anything other than the horse's natural gait. You've then got to remember that the higher dressage movements can put enormous strain on this area anyway soooooooooooo honestly? For dressage? i'd be passing i think.

IF you do go ahead, yea i'd be wanting a vetting i think at least to get the vets thoughts on it.

 

[Tierra]

Its not necessarily the whole back end, although it can end up like this. It generally starts in one hind leg and it can be quite difficult to spot because its rarely as pronounced as its rumoured to be. Both horses i know are now early teens and its still only affecting one hind leg and only slightly... but of course... it doesnt mean it always will

ETS i dont suspect thats what this horse has though.

 

[shadowboy]

Its interesting isnt it? it disappears in trot and canter so i thought in dressage terms it wasnt so much of an issue as there is very limited walk in most tests. His action is otherwise clean , highly elevated and very loose and swingy.
Yes dressage was what i wanted to do with him to about elementay level. its difficult to know what to do because i think hes amazing and very well put together- but Tierra has hit the nail on the head- will this deviation of the hind leg cause lameness later. Regarding the vetting, what level can they do with a unfit 2 year old?

 

[Tierra]

Upto elementary level.... id stick my neck out and say you'd have to get a pretty mean judge to mark you down for that. It does become an issue at the higher grades though.

It's a tough one because finding naturally good paces for dressage can be difficult... on the other hand its a strenuous sport. IF you give the horse the benefit of the doubt and say its just his way of going and theres no real underlying problems causing it, I would be concerned that any outward deviation of the movement is going to cause a strain on the joint in question (either fetlock or hock depending upon where the deviation is originating).

Regarding the vetting - it depends on what you go for but for the more detailed vettings the heart beat needs to be raised basically.

For me... and for dressage, I'd honestly want thorough vettings AND x rays. While they're no indication of what could happen, with the stress put on dressage horses' joints I'd want a 100% clean bill of joint health at the point of purchase. It would also give a clearer idea of if anything is causing the strange hind movement.

 

[Tia]

Which joint is it swinging out from? Fetlock, hock or patella?

 

[ImogenLouise]

Hi Tia,
the pony I bought 2 months ago has UFP- you say your mare has it- do you know why she has it? My vet thinks that our pony's previous owner probably exercised him more than we do (although he was being ridden 5 times a week before this started) and so now he has been put on 24/7 turnout to keep him moving and I'm going to try and raise his fitness level. (not easy with 2 children and a full-time job!)
He was fully vetted prior to purchase 2 months ago and the vet who carried out that vetting said there were no signs of it then. He suggested that raised shoes on his hind feet could help. Have you heard this?

 

[shadowboy]

My instinct says the hock. The fetlock is straight, it may be from the patella, but i would say hock. Its only seen in walk, and you only notice when standing directly behind him. What are your feelings?

 

[Tia]

In my poor horse's situation; she is 3 years old, was transported 2,000 miles as a weanling and as she grew the condition started to show itself. The ignorant owners kept her in a small 20ft square pen for the following 2 years. When I finally found her I brought her home and turned her out into a large 10 acre field. The improvement has been very noticeable almost daily. The more she exercises, the stronger the muscle-build up is around the patella, holding it in place. To look at her now, the lesser experienced eye would say she was perfect and wouldn't notice it at all. I still do but I also see the huge improvement she has made in just a couple of months.

This mare had UFP in both legs and it was by far the worst case I have ever seen in my life. She swung her legs out in a VERY exaggerated fashion with EVERY stride she took. Now, as I say, it is barely noticeable.

Your vet is completely right though in what he says.

 

[Tia]

My feelings are....ignore everything I said about UFP

. Can't be that if it is coming from lower down the leg. Sorry.

 

[Scarlett]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a mild form of Upward Fixation of the Patella. Very common in young horses of this age and generally as fitness increases it tends to go away. It isn't something that would worry me to be honest (IF that's what it is) but then I don't do dressage. Have a vet check him over first would be my advice.

I have a mare who has UFP. When I got her a few months ago she was REALLY bad......now? You can barely notice it. She is about to be moved into one of my hilly fields which should help her no end and should finally fix this problem.

Good luck whatever you decide.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, my rising 4 exracer came to me last year with a funny hind leg action similar to what the OP describes, my vet said it was just like UFP and would get better with work (she had been raced then turned away for 6 months and had no muscle at all), 3 months later its loads better and not noticable at all in trot or canter or when she is walking on correctly....

 

[Bossanova]

I'd be cautious and maybe look at a few more, especially as it isnt in work so you dont know how it will stand up to work.
No point buying problems

 

[Tempi]

id get him vetted ad get xrays done at the vetting for piece of mind.

 

[Sal_E]

You need to get it vetted. Prior to spending money on that though, I'd want to see it walked & trotted after flexion tests & also get directly behind him (safe distance!) & take a good look at what the back end is doing (in halt, walk & trot) - i.e. is he totally level all the way from the top to the bottom..? It could be that he is sore in his back/hips/stifle etc & the slight twist you are seeing is a knock on effect of that.

I would guess that as the horse matures, strengthens & fittens up & is taught the correct way to work, the problem will become less visible. I would certainly want a sensible answer from the vet before making a decision though.

 

[Patches]

I think it's one of two things as my horse does this, coincidentally with her off hind too.

Just my opinion and may be very wrong, but I'd suspect it was either the start of Spavin or mild stringhalt.

My horse has always had her strange action, from a very young age. She's not lame with it, but whatever started it does mean she's now developing spavin. Of course, she's a cob with big hocks and is rising 9 so there's every chance she'd have developed spavin anyway.