Oedema?

[navaho]

Ive just had the vet out to see my gelding, i had him about 10 weeks ago & he was very over weight, i noticed at the time he had a lump under his stomach, which i assumed was a fatty lump....fast forward 10 weeks, hes lost weight (though still more to go), but the lump is alot more noticeable & worse after riding. The vet says it an oedema & hopefully it will go on its own & said i need to get more weight off him (which i already knew) & get him moving about alot more. He doesnt seem to think there is an underlying cause, thankfully. The lump starts just behind his girth & extends right back to his sheath (his sheath does swell as well).
Anyway, i was just wondering if anyone else has experienced anything like this & if there is anything asides from exercise that you did to help it decrease in size.

 

[pines of rome]

I would get another opinion, I had a horse with this and it turned out to be heart failure, hopefully yours is something less serious but something is causing it and you need to know what!

 

[Mongoose11]

My mare seems to have this and we don't know why. The vet wasn't concerned. It started further up near her teats and then has kind of spread and formed a 'lump' at then very bottom point of her stomach. It is more noticeable when she is hairy. It isn't a huge 'lump' but I can see that her tummy is a little mis-shapen from it.

It does seem to go down when she is in regular work. I don't like not knowing what it is but as she is very happy and healthy in every other way the vet has said not to worry.

I will be very interested to hear what others have to say.......

 

[Mongoose11]

I would get another opinion, I had a horse with this and it turned out to be heart failure, hopefully yours is something less serious but something is causing it and you need to know what!

Oh no, what was the progression like.... please can you explain more?

 

[Toast]

I would expect an edematous lump to go down after exercise not up! I'd get a second opinion.

Billie1007 yours sounds more like odema!

 

[Mongoose11]

I would expect an edematous lump to go down after exercise not up! I'd get a second opinion.

Billie1007 yours sounds more like odema!

Toast - do you have any experience of odema? Should I be more concerned? I would say at worst the lump at the bottom of her belly has a depth of about a centimetre....

 

[navaho]

I would get another opinion, I had a horse with this and it turned out to be heart failure, hopefully yours is something less serious but something is causing it and you need to know what!

The vet checked his heart & said that was fine, he seems healthy in himself & has plenty of energy now he is getting fitter. He said he was presenting for any of the normal underlying problems that you would associate with oedema....i will see if i can post a pic.

 

[navaho]

His sheath does go down after exercise though, its only really swollen when hes been stabled over night & its fine once hes been for a pootle round the field.

 

[Greygirl]

What about getting a blood test? These swellings can be a sign of numerous problems incl liver, kidney, loss of protein.

Having said that, My pony has a similar problem, the blood test showed no reason for it - we are just assuming maybe it has something to do with her cushings

 

[Mongoose11]

Navaho - is it that whole 'section' that you can kind of see running under his belly? That is quite significant isn't it. I hope someone on here can advise further. My mares isn't anything like that in terms of size but I can feel that it runs the whole length of her belly but peaks a little right at the bottom. Hers isn't even a centimetre in depth for the most part.

If I were you I would be gtting a second opinion just for my own peace of mind. Vets do get it wrong sometimes - they are only human.

 

[navaho]

Vet seemed to think a blood test was pointless, he did mention it but didnt seem to think it would show anything up & would be a waste of my money. He said as hes had the swelling for so long (at least 10 weeks, probably longer) if it was liver or kidneys he wouldnt be looking as well as he does, ive seen dogs with kidney problems so im inclined to agree with the vet on that score.

 

[navaho]

Navaho - is it that whole 'section' that you can kind of see running under his belly? That is quite significant isn't it. I hope someone on here can advise further. My mares isn't anything like that in terms of size but I can feel that it runs the whole length of her belly but peaks a little right at the bottom. Hers isn't even a centimetre in depth for the most part.

If I were you I would be gtting a second opinion just for my own peace of mind. Vets do get it wrong sometimes - they are only human.

Yes its the whole section, it feels like a memory foam mattress, when you push your finger in it stays dented in & it runs
Trouble is the vet i normally have is leaving the practice next week so the vets receptionist felt i should have this vet for continuity (who is the proper horse vet), hes usually pretty good though, i wont use any of the other local vets as not wholey convinced on those having used them in the past. Not really sure what to do now, he seems well in himself & is happy to go out for a ride, his appetite is exactly the same & hasnt changed, hes not drinking excessive amounts of water & hes pee'ing & poo'ing fine.

 

[pines of rome]

Oh no, what was the progression like.... please can you explain more?

When I fist noticed it was just in the girth area, horse otherwise looked a picture of health, fist vet wrongly diagnosed it as an allergy, not to worry!
As time went on it got worse he started to lose some weight had another vet out who did an ECG, very irregular heart beats, we did stabalise him for several months on drugs, but he then got secondary liver failure and I lost him!

 

[Toast]

Toast - do you have any experience of odema? Should I be more concerned? I would say at worst the lump at the bottom of her belly has a depth of about a centimetre....

I am by no means a vet, but odema is just fluid within the tissue. Nothing much to worry about really! I find our mares get it on their belly and infront of their udder when they've been stood in too long. Plenty of exercise should help

 

[navaho]

I am by no means a vet, but odema is just fluid within the tissue. Nothing much to worry about really! I find our mares get it on their belly and infront of their udder when they've been stood in too long. Plenty of exercise should help

Which is what my vet said, thankyou

 

[flitz02]

I had an old mare with very simular years ago,my lovely if not useless vet diagnosed as mastitis... although she wasnt in foal & was in her twenties!!! I carried on riding her etc only for a young vet to come out to her one day when she nearly collapsed in the field to tell me it was infact an odema from the heart ,we medicated her on digoxin & fruesemide and she lived for another 15 years before old age caught up with her! ...however i did not ride after the diagnosis as i didnt feel safe riding a horse with a heart problem!
I cannot remember how it was diagnosed but im pretty sure you could hear something from the heart & i do believe we had bloods done too.I personally would get another opinion from another equine specialist practice.Fingers crossed for you that it is something else tho'.Good luck & let us know how he gets on.

 

[flitz02]

Just remembered she too had an ecg to confirm diagnosis.

 

[MontyandZoom]

Oedema is indeed just fluid accumulation so is essentially a symptom not a diagnosis. There are alot of things that can cause oedema.

There is a balance of blood pressure pushing fluid out of the tiny gaps in blood vessels and the oncotic pressure of proteins and other solutes holding the fluid in. When something happens to either blood pressure or oncotic pressure, it upsets the balance and oedema happens.

Blood pressure is affected by heart conditions as already mentioned. Oncotic pressure can be affected by either loss of protein (kidney problems, loss through diarrhoea) or not making enough/ incorrect processing of proteins (liver problems).

HOWEVER, it can also just spontaneously happen, especially in overweight cobby types and not moving around very much. When people are pregnant and therefore are heavier and less active than normal they often get swollen ankles which is essentially the same thing.

It sounds like your vet is satisfied that there is no evidence of heart problems and that your horse is not showing signs of being systemically ill like you would with kidney/liver problems so I wouldn't worry too much. I knew a shire that had this problem when stabled in the winter.

 

[glenruby]

Oedema is a Clinical sign - the term symptom is not applicable in vet med - usually of a pathological condition. The last 6 horses I have seen with ventral oedema have had - 1 x malignant melanoma ( now passed away), 1 x lymes disease, 2 x liver disease( 1 passed away), 1 x bite wound to the scrotum ( v. oedema secondary to hugely swollen scrotum) and one with lymphoma. Most of these were accompanied by another clinical sign

 

[cyberhorse]

I'd be happier if my vet was investigating the cause of the oedema and ruling out all serious health conditions that can cause it. As glenruby said it is a clinical sign not a diagnosis in itself, I am from a human medical background here so not at all an expert in horse health. For a person diagnostics would be used to rule out possible causes - the list can include things like heart failure, kidney disease, thyroid function, nutrition, infection, burns, some cancers, allergies etc... More often than not it isn't serious and is self limiting, but it is best to rule out serious problems so that no opportunity for early and thus effective treatment is missed. Yet it is probably nothing of significance.

The only other thing I am wondering is whether it is the girth could somehow be aggravating something. The only reason I suggest this is that my horse will get a large swelling in his chest if I use an elasticated breastplate (hence I don't). The vet said I was just unlucky that he has a large artery very superficial in that area and it was not a reason to worry at all just his anatomy. Possibly the girth could be reducing drainage further?

 

[glenruby]

I agree cyber horse. I do suggest bloods as an initial test - sometimes after a short period of paddock rest to see how it resolves on its own. If no improvement re examine, bloods and go from there.however, as we all know, most horse owners are usually reluctant to pay vets bills so in many cases (necessary) investigations are limited by the owners.

 

[noblesteed]

My friends gelding has the same. The vet also said oedema and wasn't concerned. I would be worried about his heart as I have seen the same thing in pet rats and a dog! But she isn't too concerned and she is a medical professional so that's up to her!

 

[Misog2000]

A pony with a swelling like this was the first sign of the liver problem all the horses on my yard had last winter. Pony seemed well in itself apart from a bit of weight loss, but as we were coming into winter that wasn't picked up. It turned out that 20 out of 22 horses on the yard had raised liver enzymes, but the only ones that displayed any signs were the one with the oedema and one that went down with lami.

Not trying to scaremonger, but I would be asking for bloods to be run to check liver, kidneys etc. I didn't realise until the problems we had last winter how well a very sick horse can look. My horses bloods weren't too bad, but a friends mare had such high levels the vet thought she might lose her.....she had still been out competing until the results came in, no difference had been noticed in the horse at all.

 

[cyberhorse]

A pony with a swelling like this was the first sign of the liver problem all the horses on my yard had last winter. Pony seemed well in itself apart from a bit of weight loss, but as we were coming into winter that wasn't picked up. It turned out that 20 out of 22 horses on the yard had raised liver enzymes, but the only ones that displayed any signs were the one with the oedema and one that went down with lami.

Not trying to scaremonger, but I would be asking for bloods to be run to check liver, kidneys etc. I didn't realise until the problems we had last winter how well a very sick horse can look. My horses bloods weren't too bad, but a friends mare had such high levels the vet thought she might lose her.....she had still been out competing until the results came in, no difference had been noticed in the horse at all.

Did they ever find out why so many had raised liver enzymes? Was this put down to something in the feed or a viral infection? Pretty alarming that there were only few with outward signs of an issue.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I would get a blood test seriously my lami mare has lost weight and had a few odemas. Turns out she has liver disease

thankfully there are non now but she is on a stricked diet and i have to weight each of her 10 feeds.

Not saying it is ut you need a blood test to rule it out. IMO

 

[Mongoose11]

Leviathan - that is what my mare looks like. Why wouldn't the vet have suggested bloods? Grrrrrrr - I am going to get her tested. Can you tell me a bit more about the diet situation?

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Vet seemed to think a blood test was pointless, he did mention it but didnt seem to think it would show anything up & would be a waste of my money. .

OMG If my vets had not taken bloods, her liver disease would have gone un noticed. Get another vet to do bloods .

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Leviathan - that is what my mare looks like. Why wouldn't the vet have suggested bloods? Grrrrrrr - I am going to get her tested. Can you tell me a bit more about the diet situation?

yes she was on soya oil fast fibre and other vits due to her lami
but as she has lost weight. She is on sugar beet - speedy beet alfafa and high fibre cubes.

Before all the shock horror members say ahhhh sugar beet to a lami .

its wieghed out in 10 feeds 1 1/2 hr apart 600grms beet 25g nuts 25 g alfafa , just enough protein but digested in stomac not making liver work hard. D&H Terresa Hoyland put her on this and they work hand in glove with the top liver specialist.


Find out first what is causing it then speek to D&H most vets know of teressa hoyland http://www.hoylandevent.co.uk/Feeding For Optimum Performance press.html

another one of her

 

[oscarwild]

I had a horse who had an oedema. It ran from his sheath to just before his front legs. Vet came out and bloods were done and over the next few months he had biopsy's done etc. Turned out he had gut issues like IBS and that was causing the oedema.

My first port of call would be to get a vet to take bloods just to see what they say and take it from there.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

soya oil is a big no no as it makes the liver work to hard


fibergy hifi and fast fibre all have straw in, this causes ammonia to build up in the hind gut and then get into the blood stream which then goes round causing pain in the feet like lami and also the horses brain giving it the spaced out feeling. Nothing with straw in.

No vege oil or any feeds which will cause liver to over load work, hence the 10 feeds .
My mare went and still is jaundice but not as much since she is on this diet.


Milk Thistle
Legaphyton
Yea Sac
the above are the main helps for liver.

second depends on the extent of damage


lemon juice
licorice
dandelion root
and nettles as well as other helpful things.



I used a detox L94 and Global Herbs. but her liver could not cope with a detox in her condition ( need to heal first) she went really bad after 25 mins of the detox so you need to find out the cause before you treat.

she also got another odema after the detox
thats why i stopped it as well as other symptoms the body could not cope with it.

if its nothing to do with the liver, then manipulation is the best way to rid odemas gently rubbing them and massaging them