Oh no, I think its PTS time for my best friend, opinions please...

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Dukey

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Hi, please help...

My old boy is 20 he has ring bone and arthritis in his front fetlock joint this is currently managed with Danilon for the past 2 years, he has a sachet a day along with cortaflex and devils claw. On vets advise he is lightly hacked and has turnout during the day (usually 7 til 4). Two weeks ago he seemed to have a flair up of stiffness, but had limited turn out due to this snow, this seemed to settle then last week he was let out the field (an accident by someone else on the yard) he and others galloped down the concrete yard :mad: no surprise he was really sore the next day since then he is sound in walk but still hopping in trot. Now he has stopped eating and he is dropping most of he feed on the floor :( he had his teeth and back done in January. In the field he is just standing around looking very depressed and yesterday he came to me when I was getting my other horse in early. He usually loves his turn out...

I also noticed when he had a wee that it was bright yellow, all most like Sunny D! Is this normal?

Do you think this is all related to pain? Or maybe something else is going on? Any ideas are welcome, I'll be calling the vet in the morning but in expecting the worst :(

Thank you for reading.
 
I can understand why you have posted the questions, you are in an emotional and questioning mind set.

The veterinary professionals are by far the best, and really the only ones, that you should be taking advice from now. Let them guide you, make sure you explain in detail, the changes you have seen.

I really hope you get the help you need.
 
he sounds like he has just done a bit too much and is a bit sore. as i am a very mature person i can completely understand how he feels. as he has problems you may find he takes a little while to get over this and the vet may tell you to up the danilon to help him.

no one can advise you what to do as you know him and know if he is unhappy, some years ago i had a 35 yr old who also had ringbone and sidebone and i got my vet(who i had known for 30 years and i trusted) to visit and asked his opinion on her quality of life......he said, well she is ok now but once the ground gets hard she will be very uncomfortable so if she was mine i would pts now....how much better to go when she is feeling ok rather than wait till she is in a lot of pain.......i took his advice and have never regretted it as that winter was really a bad one and she would have suffered..

although this isnt the same as yours because i was just going into winter and you are going into summer...that is if we get any!!!!!! but the principal is the same......

as long as you can make him comfortable and he has a good quality of life theres no need to pts......but the important thing is quality of life.....hope the vet can help tomorrow...good luck
 
Yes I hate the idea of him being in pain :( I know the vets are the ones with the answers but it's just nice to hear other people's opinions/experiences. Especially about the food... he has had a flair up before but never dropped his food etc, so I'm a bit baffled to why he is doing this?
 
Dukey said:
Yes I hate the idea of him being in pain :( I know the vets are the ones with the answers but it's just nice to hear other people's opinions/experiences. Especially about the food... he has had a flair up before but never dropped his food etc, so I'm a bit baffled to why he is doing this?
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Dropping his food could be something as simple as a rotten tooth, remember to tell the vet when he is with you. My 20 yr old has a big cavity at the back of his mouth which food rots in and I have been told it will cause him problems a some point.

Make notes so you remember to mention everything, it is so easy to be a bit upset when the vet is there and forget to ask all you had planned to raise. Good luck and fingers crossed for you both.
 
Whatever has stopped him eating may have made him cut down on drinking too which will have made his wee a different colour.
Get the vet in and hopefully he might just have a mouth problem which can be sorted out.
 
First things first.

My horse has all these arthritic changes but he is doing great and hacks out over very challenging ground for 4-6 hours at a time - so it;s not the end of the world.

- check the teeth - he may have a slack or infected one, diastema (very common and can be painful) - and please use a vet to do this.

- get blood tests for Cushings - check his ACTH levels - what you describe sounds like he may be on that curve

- Nutritional support - a good mineral supplement like the Forage Plus winter supplement

- is he shod or barefoot? Horses with arthritic changes often do better barefoot. Mine certainly do - much less concussion and freedom for the hoof to adapt to loading.
 
Hi thanks for the replies. The vet came out this morning and he hadn't eaten all night his breakfast was all over the floor. I worked out he is probably on his 4th day of this so therefore his 4th day of no Danilion, which wouldn't be helping his lameness. Yes, he has had changes/periods of stiffness before but he has never been this bad. I would hate to keep a horse in pain but this old boy owes me nothing we grew up together and there is nothing worse than seeing him so low.
Anyhow, the vet saw him trot up and said he wasn't majorly lame, so he couldn't be in so much pain he would be dropping his food. Considering he has had no Danilion he was pretty good. He did all the normal checks everything was fine, only that his heart rate was on the upper side of normal. Same vet came to do his teeth a few weeks ago so had another look. Nothing jumped out, all very smooth, but on the first tooth in he found a hole. Vet put a needle in and he didn't move, vet suggested if there was some infection it would be sore and pos some swelling. But he was fine with the vet pulling at it and the tooth itself was still secure.
Umm... So vet gave him a shot of pain relief and suggested we get 2 Danilions in him daily, if possible! Once pain free he might start eating again, which will show its pain related. He gave him a course of antibiotics and we are to monitor him for the next few days. If by Sunday there is no change he'll have to go to the clinic for further bloods, tests, possible head xray.
:( I have everything crossed its minor, but tonight he again struggled to eat a small feed...

In regards to barefoot, I know there are a lot of lovers on here so I hope I won't be shot down! But he is very, very lame when he looses a shoe, when being shod he is uncomfortable with no shoes on so its really not an option. He has been shod to vets advice due to previous fractured leg and tendon injury.
 
thanks for the update......fingers crossed he gets better....whilst i dont want to question your vet, could he perhaps be lame on more than one leg? the reason i say this is that i knew my mare wasnt right and called the vet, she trotted up sound even after flexion tests, so she was nerve blocked and we found she was actually lame in both fronts...hopefully if you can get the danilon into him he will start eating again.

have you tried mixing the danilon into some plain yoghurt and syringing it into him? or if that doesnt work you can get bute in a syringe from the vet, its not cheap but would be good as a short term solution.

hope you can get him comfortable soon....
 
Hi yes he has arthritis in both front fetlocks. One is very minor, which is the leg he had a tendon injury and fracture, the other is more serious with ring bone. He had the tendon injury at 5 and fractured the same leg at 9 he continued until 17 to compete at BE, so he was clearly using the good leg rather than the bad one!
Yes we're trying with his feed because we would like him to eat something, also so he can get his other supps.
 
But if he's not eating his danilon it's imperative you get that into him - I dont mean to sound mean and I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on for this,I'm hoping I've just understood you wrong, but I can't believe you've let him not have something he needs daily for five days and are still insisting on trying to make him eat it with his feeds! Just syringe it in and at least you know he has had the pain relief he needs - Does he have stalky chaff (Alfa a and the like) ? Might be worth leaving that out of his feeds and makingthem quite wet to see if that makes him want to eat a bit more (with it softer and easy to chew without stalky chaff)
Seriously - syringe the danilon into him until he's eating well again - and jig things with his feed to see if you can tempt him, apples,carrots,parsnips,fenugreek, mint, molasses,there's lots of things that can be done to try - even finding a new feed for a while just to get him kick-started...

bless him he sounds like a star and you clearly love him very much, hopffully it's not quite time just yet.
 
Why would I not let him have his danilion? We have stood with him for over 1/2 an hour feeding him a small amount of chop with his danilion and supps in, we will do the same this morning. He is eating but chewing it very, very slow then dropping it. We have caught it in the bucket and he is willing to eat it again. If he wasn't eating at all or showed no interest in food then I wouldn't do it this way. However, he is asking for food but he drops it, we're making sure he gets it even if it means standing with him for ages! Vet agreed this was the best method, if possible. We will syringe if it gets to the point that he won't eat but at the moment he is willing to eat but we have to stand with him catching all the dropped bits, etc.
 
You are the one who said "that makes 4 days he hasn't had it" not me - I took that to mean that he wasn't getting any!!!!

Each to their own - if you are happy then that's all that matters :)
 
Oh no, that was before yesterday. Over the weekend I noticed he was dropping his carrots out out of his feed I mentioned it to my mum who said she had to get the liquid version of devils claw and may he didn't like it so on Monday he was fed by someone else on our yard all seemed ok, but when I did him on Tuesday I noticed him looking very depressed in the field, found most of his breakfast again on the floor and hay untouched. Tuesday night mum and I stood with him to watch him eat we then agreed there was something very wrong and we would call the vet.
 
Dukey said:
Hi, please help...

My old boy is 20 he has ring bone and arthritis in his front fetlock joint this is currently managed with Danilon for the past 2 years, he has a sachet a day along with cortaflex and devils claw. On vets advise he is lightly hacked and has turnout during the day (usually 7 til 4). Two weeks ago he seemed to have a flair up of stiffness, but had limited turn out due to this snow, this seemed to settle then last week he was let out the field (an accident by someone else on the yard) he and others galloped down the concrete yard :mad: no surprise he was really sore the next day since then he is sound in walk but still hopping in trot. Now he has stopped eating and he is dropping most of he feed on the floor :( he had his teeth and back done in January. In the field he is just standing around looking very depressed and yesterday he came to me when I was getting my other horse in early. He usually loves his turn out...

I also noticed when he had a wee that it was bright yellow, all most like Sunny D! Is this normal?

Do you think this is all related to pain? Or maybe something else is going on? Any ideas are welcome, I'll be calling the vet in the morning but in expecting the worst :(

Thank you for reading.
Click to expand...


Its such a worry.
May I ask a few ? was it a ETD or vet that did his teeth???


If it were me:
If vet I would get a ETD to check teeth.
I would change from Cortiflex to Equimins flexi joint.

(I found flexi was stronger, fed less of it, had better results more cost effective.)
. look in my sig the website has previous members post about the improvement of flexijoint under J for joint.

get a vet to do some bloods see if he has caught a bug ( one of my liveries has caught a bacterial infection) that is two now on my yard.

maybe try acupuncture
 
It maybe worth just syringing his mouth out. As he has /had a hole in a tooth then some bits of food may still be in the hole.

I have a mare that has a couple of gaps between her teeth and my EDT told us to syringe her mouth out with a weak solution of Listerine mouthwash. We do this after each feed and sometimes before her feeds too.

"Don't jump down my throat", but to boost the Danalion I too would syringe it in for a few days. After doing this he may then feel better and you can go back to putting in his feeds.
 
Dukey said:
Why would I not let him have his danilion? We have stood with him for over 1/2 an hour feeding him a small amount of chop with his danilion and supps in, we will do the same this morning. He is eating but chewing it very, very slow then dropping it.
Click to expand...

Try something other than chop in that case that is easier on his mouth.
You could get a lb of bran from the pet shop and mix the med's in some of that with some warm molassy water (syrup makes a good substitute or black treacle) or sloshy sugar beet. TBH, it doesn't matter what you feed him as long as it's easily digestible and chaff is not easily digestible and chewable. Most horses like a warm bran mash and will try at least to nibble at it but I echo the others, syringe the stuff in if you can't get him to eat, it's the only way.
Have you tried other brands of the meds as I had one that wouldn't take that but would take another?
 
Your boy owes you nothing, and you love him and know him like nobody else, and are doing all the right things.
That said, much as you may be looking for ways out, you WILL know in yourself when it is the right time to make that decision for him, even though it is going to cut you to pieces, whatever anyone else says. Give it the time, but also trust your own instincts. And best regards in whatever you decide.
 
Leviathan said:
Its such a worry.
May I ask a few ? was it a ETD or vet that did his teeth???


If it were me:
If vet I would get a ETD to check teeth.
I would change from Cortiflex to Equimins flexi joint.

(I found flexi was stronger, fed less of it, had better results more cost effective.)
. look in my sig the website has previous members post about the improvement of flexijoint under J for joint.

get a vet to do some bloods see if he has caught a bug ( one of my liveries has caught a bacterial infection) that is two now on my yard.

maybe try acupuncture
Click to expand...

Thank you, I'll try the flexi joint. Vet did his teeth and same vet came out yesterday. Vet will do bloods on Monday if there is no progress with him on antibiotics and pain relief. To be honest the vet is a bit stumped to what's wrong.
 
Maesfen said:
Try something other than chop in that case that is easier on his mouth.
You could get a lb of bran from the pet shop and mix the med's in some of that with some warm molassy water (syrup makes a good substitute or black treacle) or sloshy sugar beet. TBH, it doesn't matter what you feed him as long as it's easily digestible and chaff is not easily digestible and chewable. Most horses like a warm bran mash and will try at least to nibble at it but I echo the others, syringe the stuff in if you can't get him to eat, it's the only way.
Have you tried other brands of the meds as I had one that wouldn't take that but would take another?
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He ate well this morning with chaff and sugar beet. We had a clean bucket but as said I said he just takes a while to eat and you have to be on hand to catch any dropped bits. I'm wondering if it's to do with his throat as after watching him eat he seems to chew almost like a cow but when it comes to swallowing he can't do it so it's spat out??
 
paulineh said:
It maybe worth just syringing his mouth out. As he has /had a hole in a tooth then some bits of food may still be in the hole.

I have a mare that has a couple of gaps between her teeth and my EDT told us to syringe her mouth out with a weak solution of Listerine mouthwash. We do this after each feed and sometimes before her feeds too.

"Don't jump down my throat", but to boost the Danalion I too would syringe it in for a few days. After doing this he may then feel better and you can go back to putting in his feeds.
Click to expand...

Vet fully checked teeth yesterday but didnt find much. This hole in his tooth was washed out, nothing much was there, vet put a needle in it and he had no reaction. Vet said if it was an infection then he would react. Also if the infection was deep in the root this such cause his face to swell but there's nothing. If there is no improvement vet has said he will xray. But there isn't anything obvious at this stage to why he is not eating well and dropping so much food. Don't worry he has got all his danillion, antibiotics and other sups last night and this morning.

Today he's looking brighter was very keen to go in the field. He had eaten most of his hay last night but still dropped the small breakfast we gave him (whole yard is fed at 6am so we made up a feed so he had something with the others, we came down at 8am to feed him his extra bits). So we have a little progress, but as I mentioned above I'm concerned it's more throat related than tooth....
 
elijahasgal said:
Your boy owes you nothing, and you love him and know him like nobody else, and are doing all the right things.
That said, much as you may be looking for ways out, you WILL know in yourself when it is the right time to make that decision for him, even though it is going to cut you to pieces, whatever anyone else says. Give it the time, but also trust your own instincts. And best regards in whatever you decide.
Click to expand...

Thank you, yes he is a special horse. I just have a very bad feeling about this :(
 
If you think its throat related try to syringe some honey in to him, we use honey for anything with a cold and a cough and they seem to get a bit of relief. Also I'd get him out in the field as much as possible, sometimes if they wont eat meal or hay (for whatever reason), they will still pick at grass (that is of course if there is grass where you are at the moment). I would also forget about his normal feed, give his meds in the honey and soak some cubes and beet pulp and feed it to him runny it would be easier on his throat than chaff (I only mean this as a temp measure while his throat seems sore).
 
Dukey said:
Vet fully checked teeth yesterday but didnt find much. This hole in his tooth was washed out, nothing much was there, vet put a needle in it and he had no reaction. Vet said if it was an infection then he would react. Also if the infection was deep in the root this such cause his face to swell but there's nothing. If there is no improvement vet has said he will xray. But there isn't anything obvious at this stage to why he is not eating well and dropping so much food. Don't worry he has got all his danillion, antibiotics and other sups last night and this morning.

Today he's looking brighter was very keen to go in the field. He had eaten most of his hay last night but still dropped the small breakfast we gave him (whole yard is fed at 6am so we made up a feed so he had something with the others, we came down at 8am to feed him his extra bits). So we have a little progress, but as I mentioned above I'm concerned it's more throat related than tooth....
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I don't know what area your in but honestly vets are not as good as ETD for horses teeth, I would seriously ask one to check, normally if there is no work they will not charge you unless you the only one on the yard. To me having seen horses having vets do teeth and the horses still wrong then the dentist comes out sorts the horse improves no end. For me getting one out would be another box ticked. :)
 
Maesfen said:
Try something other than chop in that case that is easier on his mouth.
You could get a lb of bran from the pet shop and mix the med's in some of that with some warm molassy water (syrup makes a good substitute or black treacle) or sloshy sugar beet. TBH, it doesn't matter what you feed him as long as it's easily digestible and chaff is not easily digestible and chewable. Most horses like a warm bran mash and will try at least to nibble at it but I echo the others, syringe the stuff in if you can't get him to eat, it's the only way.
Have you tried other brands of the meds as I had one that wouldn't take that but would take another?
Click to expand...
To add to that list you could also try fast fibre as well :)
 
i wouldnt worry just yet. our old tb had arthritus in all four legs and they swelled every night untill he was walked out for a bit. at 19/20 he beging to stop eating for a while which is just after the arthritus got bad. after a week maybe two he began eating again and everything was ok.

with any luck yours will be just fine yet and will start eating again! dont worry!
 
Thanks for the replies. He is a lot brighter in himself but still not eating great. All breakfast had been attempted but chewed out. We went down and gave him his meds etc which he did eat ok with very watered down sugar beet. He seemed ok with my friends Veteran Vitality feed, which you soak so I'm off to get a bag as he seems better having that with his senior balancer than any chaff etc. When the vet calls today I'm going to discuss his throat and may try the honey to see if he improves with that.
He has magnetic boots since his eventing days the have been brilliant x
 
This is what he loves to eat atm, he prefers it to the sugarbeet but do you think it will be too fattening for him?

http://www.allenandpage.com/Products/Older-Horses-and-Conditioning/Veteran-Vitality-Info.aspx

He is a ISH type, 16.1hh last time on the weigh bridge he was about 700kg, condition score 5. By no means is he a lean tb, and less weight the better for his arthritis I know he's no eating but wouldn't like to make him fatter before the spring grass comes...
 
I'll try to put some pictures up so you have an idea of his type....

End of last summer (sorry all recent ones are blurry thanks to my rubbish phone camera) He is simliar now just lost a bit of condition over his ribs and bum, but usual winter condition loss nothing major...

479933_3407635881022_957691028_n.jpg


This was taken around Christmas time not sure you can get the idea but as I said not too different from the summer.


428202_4173310742415_1129097419_n.jpg


Him in action before retirement in 2009 :)

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I know he's not eating well but I really dont want too much weight on him going into spring (if it ever arrives) I worry that the feed recommended by my friend is too high in calories..? Arghh... so hard to know what to do for the best!
 
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