Oh the joys of horse ownwership.

Agent XXX999

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I have recently bought a horse. I was told that he was a Grade B showjumper, with mild but manageable navicular – with management I was told that he would compete up to 1m level BSJA and be a wonderful riding club schoolmaster. I have since found out that he was branded for Loss of Use 4 days before I bought him, and he has won £0 with the BSJA – indicating that the seller was a liar to both me and the insurers, and his navicular is worse than I was told (she said that he came up 1/10 lame on a tight circle, and that is all)
Please help!
Any advice, legal or veterinary, would be much appreciated!
 

Happy Horse

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Ditto Miamibear regarding the vetting. If he was branded for LOU you would have a good case for a claim in the small claims court particularly as she lied to you about BSJA winnings which is a proveable fact. Did you have witnesses to what she told you?
 

Agent XXX999

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Did not have him vetted as knew about the navicular...she was a private seller. I took my instructor and also have the original advert in which she claimed that he 'loved jumping'

This is a complete nightmare and I am very sad...he is such a lovely horse and I feel awful for him.
 

miamibear

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I would say (although im no expert by any means) that because you had no vetting there is no claim against vets and because of it being a private seller you have little come back, she could say you accepted the horse with the navicular and because you didnt have it vetted there is no proof he was only 1/10 lame, he may have been more and you took him anyway.

As i say im no expert just what ive picked up on here, im sure someone will be able to help you further.

Did you get a written invoice stating he was 1/10 lame and had navicular but it didnt affect his performance?
 

Agent XXX999

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He was 1/10 lame on a tight circle- he was clearly sound as a bell when we bought him.

The dispute is not regarding the navicular - I know he has it... it is regarding the big, fat loss of use brand that has starded to grow back through - she didn't tell me she had loss of use on him!

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Agent XXX999

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The ad went like this

16.3hh stunning Selle Francais MW gelding. 13 years, bay. Good box, clip & shoe etc. This lovely horse is for sale through no fault of his own. Was affiliated show jumper and loves jumping. Lovely paces and could do dressage. Has wonderful temperament but needs confident rider to bring out the best in him. 5* home wanted for this lovely horse. Vaccinated. Passport. Has mild navicular.

And showed clear pictures of him being ridden.

Thanks

xxxxx
 

ihatework

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A tricky situation for you but to be honest did you ask if he was insured or if she was claiming LOU?
If she claimed LOU she would have got sum insured minus current market value (which is what I assumed you paid for him). Conditions of getting LOU would have been that he was branded, this is to hopefully protect the horse from being sold on by dodgy dealers/private buyer.

I'm playing devils advocate here, but does a LOU stamp change anything (other than cosmetic) about the horse you have purchased?

If you are unhappy with the sale I think the one come-back you have is that she has stated in the advert the horse has jumped at affiliated level ... give the old owner a call and find out his registartion number/registered name (this might be different from the one on his passport), then call the BSJA and get a record of his winnings
 

Kelly1982

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She said he was affiliated but never said in the advert that he has winnings so i dont think you have a come back there.

Also doesn't loss of use mean that the horse just cant be used for what it was originally purchased for??

If you only purchased him as an RC schoolmaster then he may of had loss of use put on him for BSJA.

Does that make sense??

Either way she lied anyway but as it was private and you had no vetting and didn't check his winnings i dont think you have a come back.
 

Agent XXX999

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The insurance paid out on him for jumping, as he could no longer jump - and she told me he could and would ba happy to jump up to 1m BSJA...

Oh I am so confused!
 

ihatework

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TBH I'm not really sure what your question is or what you want to know?

Theoretically a horse that has been jumping at say 1.20m + and has been diagnosed with mild navicular *could*, provided it is managed correctly, still jump smaller BSJA courses as a schoolmaster.

Can you clarify what it is you need to know ...
 

Agent XXX999

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I know that, but he didnt ever jump those tracks to start with....SO she lied about

His BSJA record
His loss of use
His navicular

Sorry for confusing everyone but I am confused myself!

You woudl think with 20 years of horse ownership I woudl know!
 

ihatework

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[ QUOTE ]
I know that, but he didnt ever jump those tracks to start with....SO she lied about

His BSJA record
His loss of use
His navicular

Sorry for confusing everyone but I am confused myself!

You woudl think with 20 years of horse ownership I woudl know!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to be objective here, so please forgive me if I come across a little harsh but ...

a) his BSJA record - from your earlier post you said the advert said ‘was affiliated showjumper’ – that is very vague and could just mean he was registered but had no winnings …. In which case she hasn’t lied. However your original post said that he was a grade B showjumper, if this is the case and this is what you were told then she has lied. If you can prove it then you could theoretically try and get a refund but this is easier said than done …
One question, how have you gone about checking his record? (has the owner given you his registered name and number?). Surely if him having BSJA winnings was important to you, you will have run a check prior to buying him?
b) His loss of use – well although not completely above board in not telling you she had claimed LOU, if you hadn’t asked the question she hasn’t strictly lied …
c) His navicular - you were told the horse had navicular – it was up to you to get the horse assessed by your vet as to the severity of the condition. Navicular, by its nature, is a degenerative condition. Therefore the horse ‘could’ have been sound when you purchased it and has since degenerated (equally the horse could have been stuffed full of bute, but without you having taken a blood test you can’t prove this either way). You said yourself that the horse was perfectly sound when you went to view it.

Personally I think you are on a loosing battle with the navicular aspect. What is still unclear is the BSJA winnings, have you spoken to his old owner to clarify the situation?
 

Agent XXX999

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The winnings are not important...but have become an issue since the LOU brand has come up...

You dont sound harsh just what I needed to hear actually

Thanks x
 

ihatework

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Unless you want to persue the seller for a refund (in which case the BSJA angle could be your leverage) a little LOU brand isn't going to change the horse you have bought, there's nothing to say it won't do the job you have bought it for (or wouldn't have at time of purchase).
Just as an aside, was your horse imported at any time in the past ... it may be that he has jumped bigger tracks abroad?
Enjoy your new boy!
 

miller

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I would imagine you would have a very tricky job getting any comeback as this was a private sale (I believe) so Caveat Emptor would be in force - unless of course you got a written receipt advising horse was suitable for jumping at that level
 

sadowner

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I was told recently by my vet to claim for loss of use on my horse, I actually wasnt covered for this so obviously didnt go down that route but I did look into it. Apparently even if I claimed loss of use and had him branded I could enter all unaffiliated competitions but not affiliated competitions so I believe that rules out BSJA, but you can still jump unaffiliated. Sorry!
 

MagicMelon

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His BSJA record - You really should have checked this, ie. got a copy of his record from the BSJA. You should never assume they're telling the truth!

His loss of use - Since this was done only 4 days before you bought him then surely you would have a case against them? Did you agree to buy the horse BEFORE this happened (ie. did you pick the horse up and pay for it after the loss of use but see and agree to buy the horse before this?). Really, you shouldn't have bought him when you noticed he had a big "L" brand on his side!

His navicular - Did you have him vetted? If he had any signs of navicular, I would have had that very thoroughly checked.

As with anything in the horse world - you can never assume anything. You cannot trust anyone, especially (obviously) strangers! Have you tried speaking to the original owners? What have they said?
 

shadowboy

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I know from my best friends horse that the brand takes time to come through- it seems as though the seller knew that it would not be seen as a big white L when they would pick him up if they only did it four days before collection. Sounds really dodgy to me.....
 

dieseldog

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contact the Loss register and find out what he has got LOU for might not even be Navicular.

I think all the information is recorded somewhere - Farmkey might be able to help
 
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