OK Clever People - CB Challenges You To...........

[JAK]

........help him go on the bit! (Actually MD challenges your depth of wisdom & cunning - CB couldn't give a stuff really! LOL)

OK, so...MD has taken CB to a couple of local shows - he didn't buck, rear (except once!), bolt (only one attempt at this!), bite, kick, run anybody down or flatten the judges!
At his second show, he was really getting into it & enjoying himself (much improved behaviour!) & MD wants to do a lot more with him come spring!
MD is determined that (apart from Family Horse where he trips along merrily in a snaffle!), he will be able to be shown in a pelham next year, in the coloured classes etc.

However, he steadfastly refuses to go on the bit, as in ever! Just stands there blankly with a 'does not compute' look on his face! He is capable of bringing his head both in & down (unlike some of his type/build with a short thick neck etc.) & will happily & easily touch his chest or MD's boots for a sweetie for example! He is actually quite 'bendy' for his shape when he wants to be & is reasonably fit! His schooling is very limited & he can't cope with too much of it at once, or he throws temper tantrums!

Lungeing is not an option, as he is bordering on the outright dangerous here (once was enough!), having learnt long before we had him that he is much stronger than people & can just tank off at will, leaving you water-skiing along behind until forced to let go where he either charges round at a flat out gallop or trots round with his knees up under his chin looking for 'victims' - not the attitude we wish to encourage in him, as he can be difficult to handle on occasions & can be very bolshy, even aggressive!

MD has new canary jodphurs, a lovely secondhand Caldene tweed, new gloves etc., she just needs the brute to 'conform'!
Any suggestions gratefully received! (At the mo, he is ridden in a french-link baucher & is reasonably responsive to the leg, i.e. he is not a complete plod that won't move at all & can in fact, stride out pretty well! He is 10 years old btw!)
Please help a poor, sad child look 'pretty'!

 

[Vey]

What happens if you get him going really well out on a hack, and then try to contain him a bit? I mean, say MD (I take my hat off unreservedly to MD) is cantering, and he is going well, and she asks for the speed to come down? Can he keep the impulsion at a lesser speed?

 

[Lucy_Ally]

Maybe you can fool CB into schooling without him knowing it, like out on hacks get MD to ask for shoulder in, leg yield, extension and collection to get him to think more about sitting back on his hocks without him feeling pressurised in the school. Does he enjoy jumping? Then lots of pole work and small jumps to get him to enjoy himself with short schooling bits inbetween. Lots of transitions to keep him entertained and sitting back a bit more (this can be done anywhere) and keep all schooling bits short and sweet.
Good luck, from the videos I have seen of CB and MD they seem to look pretty good anyway even if he isn't on the bit, I am sure he will still do well in coloured classes as he is such a super pony.

 

[druid]

Does long lining happen? If so I'd be inclined to try a pessoa. Failing that try schooling out hacking (thinking outside the box as it were)

 

[JAK]

To a degree yes but his nose remains resolutely just below the horizontal & if 'reeled in' excessively, becomes angry & tanks! (Head now completely horizontal, neck rigid, only a elephant gun would stop him now!

)

Her just doesn't seem to understand that he is perfectly of moving without his nose poking out! (God, this sounds soooo drippy but can't even get him on the bit standing still - it's almost as if he is not understanding on bl**dy purpose sometimes!)

 

[pixie]

You might hate me for suggesting this, but have you tried a pelham?

 

[JAK]

Thanks Lucy!

She just doesn't want to look 'rubbish' compared to the others - she knows she's not a brilliant rider but she just wants to have a chance at a few good places, as he has nice markings & (certainly compared to some of the revolting little oiks!

) is relatively responsive & co-operative in the ring!

He's just a scruffy, coloured run-of-the-mill blob but presented nicely, looks quite appealing I think & she could at least have some fun with him at local shows!

She was placed in the Coloured Class & the ride judge seemed to find him at least 'easy', so an improvement on a few of the others certainly, who were clearly not a pleasant ride! LOL

 

[JAK]

Brilliant idea Druid but MD has no experience of long-reining & I'm damn sure YO wouldn't be too quick to volunteer for it!

There are some very experienced driving people round here, wonder if they could be bribed to give it a go initially? I honestly don't think he's ever been taught anything like this, as he really has no idea whatsoever! Maybe he's just too old now?

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
You might hate me for suggesting this, but have you tried a pelham?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I haven't, as thought this might be considered heinous until he could already go half decently! LOL
Poor GRO looks like he has been forced into an artificial 'outline' with a pelham, although I realise this is not what you are suggesting! Would this be ok then, if used very sympathetically & gradually, do you think?

I am sure if CB just 'got the idea' once, he would do it, as he can be surprisingly co-operative & willing to please when he knows what it is that you want!

I have been looking at the butterfly pelhams as a possibility for him, as a possible 'introduction', what do you reckon?

 

[JAK]

Ta JM7 - some good ideas here & I did say she has all winter to sort him out, didn't I?

I feel a bit sorry for the poor kid, as littlest disabled daughter (not even realising!), only has to gather up her reins & sit nicely & LBO's little head comes down with a 'Look at me, look how pretty I am!' & trips off round the school like a mini dressage horse!
(Most of the time he goes round like a beach donkey but you only have to ask him........! LOL Of course, he's had all the schooling etc. his whole life!)

 

[pixie]

You could try starting him in a butterfly pelham if you want, but its easy enough to just use a normal pelham (perhaps similar in the mouth to what he's in at the moment) and work mainly on the snaffle rein with no contact on the curb rein, gradually increasing the feel on the curb rein (but I generally like to keep curb rein as loose as possible). I'm sure MD can get him going forward sufficiently, as she seems like a very good rider.

Good luck anyways, and as always, keep us up to date with his progress!

 

[minesadouble]

We have had this problem with our 11 year old pony who before we got him had only ever hunted & xcountried (tetrathlon) and couddn't even canter a circle - he only really did straight lines.
Flatwork is boring to him & he is a supreme nose-poker! We are now making progress with his outline.
We ignored suggestions of side reins etc., changed his bit to a schooloing snaffle with lozenge as he wouldn't take up a contact on his normal bit - really the nose poking is a form of bit evasion so you need to find a bit that the pony accepts - ours doesn't like nutcracker action of normal snaffle.
My daughter schools him with her hands low and wide riding him strongly forward into the contact, he fought this initially but will now go in an outline - we only work him like this in short stints as he has spent all his ridden life going with a pokey nose so he finds it pretty hard work when he goes 'properly'! We started off doing 1 to 2 circuits of the school in an outline before letting him stretch and gradually built up to the point where he's starting to find it easier and carries himself better in his 'everyday' hacking life. It's a long process & we aim to have ours going in an outline by next season so start now! (To start with she had her hands incredibly low and wide - don't worry about the rider style at this point - it does get easier!)
It may not work with yours but ours did respond so its worth a bash!

 

[JAK]

Thanks for your input!
Despite appearances, he is not a 'stupid' pony, far from it, quite the opposite in fact, so we will give it a go! I think he would look lovely in a pelham & there were several ponies at the shows who were far worse than him schooling wise (I was quite shocked actually!), so I shouldn't moan really, as when I look around, I realise he isn't that bad all things considered!
Some of the blasted things couldn't apparently even 'stop' or 'go' when asked, so it could be a helluva worse I s'pose!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
To start with she had her hands incredibly low and wide - don't worry about the rider style at this point - it does get easier!

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with everything you say - yes, it is hard work for him & he needs lots of breaks in between etc.
He is better than he was & MD has been doing a lot more work at a walk with him, getting him to stretch himself etc. - I think she is just finding progress very slow with him & gets a little fed-up sometimes!

She needs to keep on with the low, wide hands I think, as she expects the same response she gets from others with CB & it just doesn't happen! Can still see her plodding round, hands sooooo low & wide, she is doing a good impression of an aeroplane coming into land with her nose practically on his neck, wailing pitifully "He's not doing it......he won't do it......", as CB continues to stomp round, nose poking out with a "Nope, dunno wot you mean!" expression on his face! LOL

Still, when he first came, her little legs were coming 3 feet out to the side, then on him with an almighty 'whallop', backed up by a schooling whip to make him move at all, as he would just plant himself in the middle of the school & refuse to take a step, wouldn't canter & didn't have the foggiest idea what a half-halt was, so the fact that he can now canter on a single touch etc. is obviously an improvement on that!

 

[Doreys_Mum]

What if you rebitted him?

He used to be a riding school horse, did he not... then he may just be dead to the bit - he won't work on it because the contact he's recieved in the past is not nice.

One of them special bitting bits would help learn him that he can have a little play with the bit and that contact doesn't hurt...

Perhaps also you could look into a bit that does a different action, like a gag (only an example, I know little about the different bits) so that he learns there is more than just the weight in the mouth of the bit.

You could also try schooling in the pelham. Dorey loves hers

I'm very lucky with Dorey actually, if she's working she'll activly seek out contact and if you drop it entirely, she won't do anything. Never gonna be a parelli pony!!! But I spent a lot of time getting her to look for the contact, and now we're working on adding me telling her to go for it - she knows where it is from all that time she spent trying, but having not worked on the bit properly it's still hard for her.


Which is another point - be very careful with cobs working on the bit - because of their necks, they can do a lot of damage if overbent. They litrelly crush their own windpipes!!!!!

 

[JAK]

Some interesting points there D_M!

Heartened by the fact that Dorey loves her pelham, as she's another CB type, isn't she? (i.e. A hairy cob that isn't a 'dope on a rope'! LOL) What mouthpiece does hers have btw?

CB did indeed spend 2 years in a riding-school environment, though he must have despised it, as he is very much a 'one person' horse & was duller than ditchwater when we first saw him, refusing to even look at us, though we did everything imagineable to attract his attention!

He is 'dead in the mouth' in some respects, as he will not respond to attempts to twiddle him onto a contact at all, though at the same time, is very soft-mouthed & can be steered on a finger touch if needs be.......providing he is allowed to 'go' in the way he likes, i.e. powering along on the forehand!
He seldom leans on now & his hanging-cheek waterford (bobbly bit! LOL) has been changed back to a simple hanging-cheek french-link, which he is perfectly controllable in (unless he has a 'dolly out the pram moment', in which case nothing on the planet has any effect, as he just sets his neck & goes!

I would like him to go on a contact on request ideally, as I am not sure he could cope with it all the time, (I don't make my obedience dogs do 'competition heelwork' when they're out on a walk! LOL) & as you say, being overbent can cause these types extreme discomfort - 'just above the vertical' would be fine, as opposed to 'just below the horizontal'! Ha ha!

Don't suppose you have any recent vids of Dorey working do you?

 

[teapot]

[ QUOTE ]
You might hate me for suggesting this, but have you tried a pelham?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was just about to suggest a pelham. I was asked to take old pony showing and of course correct tack for his type was a pelham so in it went the week before so I could get used to 2 reins and just so happened the pony went very well in it (didnt make it to show but that's another story).

And you can ride just off the snaffle rein if you need to

 

[JAK]

A pelham it is then...........& then find somebody brave enough to try Druid's suggestion of long-reining him! (Poor CB, being made to work for his keep! LOL)

 

[fairhill]

He's going to find it difficult to come onto the bit simply because he has the cobby thick-set neck, and being built in on the forehand (i'm assuming he's a typical cob build). I can't get mine to relax at all in a hanging cheek snaffle, she'll come onto the bit with a lot of effort in a loose-ring snaffle, and easier with a loose-ring waterford, which stops her leaning down. I pop her in a straight bar pelham occasionally to remind her to come off her forehand (and save my shoulders from extra work).

You could also try flexing his neck to each side in halt to begin with, then in walk to get him a bit looser in the neck and head. You might also find that the amount of pressure needed to get him to give seems like a lot to begin with. My RI told me that mine will never go on the bit of her own accord, so I spend the first 10 mins walking her round, lots of leg yield and turns about the haunches, and with what feels like a very strong contact. I also have to come back to halt as soon as she starts leaning/pulling/motorbiking and ask again for softening in her mouth, as otherwise we just start tanking round the school...

It can be done, but it probably won't be quick - mine's 14 now, and only just started consistently coming onto the bit after 2 years of working on her! The good thing I've found is that although it takes a long time to teach anything, once these cob-types have learnt something they do seem to remember it forever.

 

[JAK]

It is hard work isn't it, bloomin' hard work! We've had him over a year now & the furry gonk has only just learnt to do a proper half-halt & start learning to bend!
You're right though - they don't forget once learnt - it's hammering it into their obstinate skulls in the first place that's the hard part! LOL

Oh, I am so happy we are not alone here!

 

[fairhill]

And these cobs are a lot cleverer than people give them credit for - you'll probably find he finds a new evasion for every step forward you take. It's also harder for you as you've got to teach him to unlearn his bad habits before you can go about improving him, if that makes sense?

 

[teapot]

Forgot to say JAK - pony I mentioned is the chessie on the right of my sig and he had a very big neck, Went from being a giraffe to going rather nicely.

 

[tinker512]

I would go with DM's suggestion of re-bitting and showing him he can play with the bit abit.

Does he lean or feel heavy on MD normally?

I am going to suggest a breaking bit with the keys if you can get hold of one,let him have a little mouthing with it(Howvere, I don't like using breaking bits when actually breaking in a horse)

Then I would perhaps have a play with something with a little curb chain action, so he will have abit of poll pressure to gently ask for his head to come down, hopefully he will pick up the idea!!Pelham as others have said the pelham is probably the best bet as you can ride off the snaffle and just ask for the curb action when and how much you want, where as with something such as a kimblewick the curb action is basically in action with your rein contact!!

I find corners are the best way to try and ask him to bend and come in, keeping a steady outside contact and niggling the inside rein, whilst squeezing squeezing squeezing him from behind!!Also try asking for shoulder in and out, get him bending that way!!

Keep us updated!!

 

[JAK]

[ QUOTE ]
And these cobs are a lot cleverer than people give them credit for - you'll probably find he finds a new evasion for every step forward you take.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep & with him, new evasions mostly take the form of bigger & better temper tantrums, though fortunately he is not a 'sulker' & once he's had his 'mega strop' for the day, he usually settles down & makes an effort! (In fact, he's often better once he's had his 'strop for the day'!)

 

[JAK]

Awww, there's hope then, as that pony is a cutie-pie & not remotely 'giraffe like'! LOL

 

[JAK]

Thanks Tinker - no, he doesn't generally lean or feel heavy, the waterford he had was to stop him tanking out hacking mainly, as then he can lean, get totally on the forehand, lock his neck & b*gger off! The waterford mouthpiece took away the fun & ease of doing this somewhat & he began to lose interest in doing it, when he found it was no longer quite such an effective evasion!

In the school, he is no trouble at all really & apart from purposely running over cones in temper, he is very responsive & controllable........as long as he is bumbling along under no pressure! He doesn't really 'get' schooling as such, he finds it very hard work & it all has to be interspersed with lots of breaks, lots of praise & a few 'fun' things to keep his attention on what he's doing!

Will try a change of mouthpiece for sure, see if we can at least awaken his interest, eh? LOL

 

[Theresa_F]

Jemima had this problem, nose out, head up. I killed myself asking her to round as she was so resistent..

I found using a market harborough for short schooling sessions and building up really helped - she basically struggled against herself and the minute she went correctly the device lets go.

Being a small person with a stubborn cob, it really helped me out. If you want to borrow one, PM me as I have one that will fit him.

Great thing is that it is fairly idiot proof and you can school, hack and jump in it.

I also found that a hanging cheek snaffle helped - the poll pressure worked a treat on Jemima.

 

[JAK]

What's that......the perfect & lovely Jemima was once not always so perfect & lovely? Surely not!

'Resistant' barely even covers it though, does it? Blimey, such hard work, like working with a lump of concrete!

 

[Doreys_Mum]

All of mine have been cb types - I've never owned a dope on a rope!!

her pelham is normal in the middle, I do believe, normal snaffle? (i know so little...)

What she loves most is that her pelham is her showing off bit. She knows when thats in, she's gotta look gooood... and she loves showing so she loves the bit!

She also loves the jangling of the curb chain... *sigh*

Simple things, eh!

There's no videos or photos of Dorey around atm as I sat on my camera... and there won't be for a while as a result!!! Sorry!!!