Old saddles/treeless saddle

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hollymarsh

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I started a thread a few weeks ago about buying a horse - since then I've found something almost perfect available for full long term loan, and it's only 40 mins away so I'm trying her after my exams finish. This is quite a hypothetical question as obviously we don't know if we'll get her or not, but...
she's a connemara type, and is ridden in a barefoot treeless saddle, which I really don't like the look of and have heard they're not nice to jump in. Owner says she has it because she changes shape a lot during the year (big belly in summer and drops a lot of weight in winter). I have a very old leather saddle which was given to us by an old next-door neighbour because she said it fit everything and we couldn't find anything to fit our wither-less, fairly round cob. The saddle is probably around 50 years old, was custom made for a show pony so doesn't look like it'd fit a cob, but the woman who gave it to us was very experienced and said it fit fine, he seemed very free and happy in it and it didn't slip at all. It's about 16" long and looking at it now, it seems like it needs reflocking because it's so hard, and someone to check it's actually safe as the leather is so brittle.
What I wanted to ask is do you think, if we do get loan pony, it'd be worth having a saddler out to see if it fits her, check it's safe and maybe reflock it or should I just suck it up and ride in a treeless saddle? What are people's experiences of treeless saddles? The old saddle looks very narrow and I can't see how it fit our cob, but he always seemed fine in it, but I can't tell whether or not it will fit a round connemara?
 
I would go absolutely mental if my horse was on loan and the loaner changed the saddle to an old one, well any one really without my express permission. In fact I would be in the box going to pick the pony up.
 
I think if you are loaning you would need to discuss this with the owner. I'd be very unhappy if I loaned you a horse and you changed it without asking me!

Treeless seems to be a love it or hate it thing. I've used one occasionally when a pony was too fat for their normal saddle, just so I could exercise them to get the weight down. Never tried a Barefoot, but they are supposed to be one of the nicer ones :)
 
If the horse dramatically gains or loses weight with the seasons and you want a treed saddle, you might end up needing 2 saddles or an adjustable one. Yes do check with the horses owner first, if you decide to take it on, see what their opinion is and how much control they're giving you. Personally I wouldn't take a horse on full loan if I didn't have control over what tack/rugs to use or how to manage the horse.
 
I have an old Pennwood lightweight, and like the one you referred to, it fitted anything and everything.. It was something to do with the tree, which was patented and the family stopped making saddles so I think it was never passed on. I rode a TB type, a narrow WB type, a small native type and a cobby sort in it and it really did do the job well on all of them - except it was a jumping saddle and never designed to be sat in for long periods of time, so not the most comfortable for the rider. I still have it and use it briefly (with a good sheepskin half pad) on a TB with the most enormous withers, and it fits fine even though it doesn't have a cut back head - but it was good old fashioned pigskin and the seat is now like a piece of wood to sit on. As an owner I wouldn't have a problem so long as the horse went nicely in it and it fitted in all the right places, as confirmed by someone who know plenty about saddle fit
 
Leo Walker said:
I would go absolutely mental if my horse was on loan and the loaner changed the saddle to an old one, well any one really without my express permission. In fact I would be in the box going to pick the pony up.
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I know, so would I - I would never do this without asking the owner, hence why it is a hypothetical question. She doesn't live far away either and knows the yard pony will be kept at so she could easily come and see the new saddle.
 
Treeless saddles take some getting use to I hated mine at first but wouldn't go back now. My friend jumps in hers. I would go mad about a loaner changing saddles without discussing it.
 
JillA said:
I have an old Pennwood lightweight, and like the one you referred to, it fitted anything and everything.. It was something to do with the tree, which was patented and the family stopped making saddles so I think it was never passed on. I rode a TB type, a narrow WB type, a small native type and a cobby sort in it and it really did do the job well on all of them - except it was a jumping saddle and never designed to be sat in for long periods of time, so not the most comfortable for the rider. I still have it and use it briefly (with a good sheepskin half pad) on a TB with the most enormous withers, and it fits fine even though it doesn't have a cut back head - but it was good old fashioned pigskin and the seat is now like a piece of wood to sit on. As an owner I wouldn't have a problem so long as the horse went nicely in it and it fitted in all the right places, as confirmed by someone who know plenty about saddle fit
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Sounds like I could have something like that, I'll see if I can see any make on it. The woman who gave it to me said she'd had it on ex-racers, show ponies, and an ISH and it fit my cob so seems likely! It's not a jumping saddle but very uncomfortable because of how hard the seat is, at the moment I have a cheap fleece seat saver on it but would probably invest in a gel or a sheepskin one if I start using it again.
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
If the horse dramatically gains or loses weight with the seasons and you want a treed saddle, you might end up needing 2 saddles or an adjustable one. Yes do check with the horses owner first, if you decide to take it on, see what their opinion is and how much control they're giving you. Personally I wouldn't take a horse on full loan if I didn't have control over what tack/rugs to use or how to manage the horse.
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Yes I'd check with the owner, in some of the pictures on the advert the pony has a normal GP saddle (looks synthetic) so possibly an adjustable one and I could see if she still has that and wouldn't mind me using it.
 
I'm sorry but I just cannot see how one saddle would fit everything! some horses might be more understanding than others! but have owned two connemara x's I'd be very surprised if you'd be that luck with her!! both have mine will always tell me when something isn't right!
 
JillA said:
This is very much like mine https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=1602265070057969&story_fbid=1602476686703474
I've had mine for over 40 years, they were very advanced at the time
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I cant see how that saddle fits anything! Its got a very narrow gullet, what looks to be a very curved tree, and its very narrow. I dont care how advanced they were at the time, that wouldnt fit any of the numerous horses I have owned in the last 30 years, and I cant think of a single one off hand that I have worked with either and there has been hundreds of those
 
The owner's reason for using a treeless (the pony changes shape through the year) is a very valid one.
The 'look' of a saddle is very far down the list of priorities when choosing one - it's all about fit.
 
I'm another would be in the "incandescent/vapourisation" camp if someone changed my horse's saddle whilst he was on loan to them! Especially if it was to an old saddle which was in use some 50 years ago!! and a saddle that "someone says will fit everything". God help us, NO!! FFS. That was the generally philosophy of 50 years ago, I can remember it (just!!) from my Pony Club days - result was a lot of uncomfortable horses :( There is always some "expert" who says one saddle will fit everything, no it will not!

If I even suspected that someone would be changing the saddle if I'd let my horse on loan to them, then sorry they wouldn't be offered it, and if I knew it had happened then I'd darn well go and get my horse back again!

IF you are committed to taking on this pony, and if you are in fact offered it, then you will have to be prepared to take it on with the saddle which it has been ridden in. I've got a Barefoot saddle, treeless saddles DO admittedly take a little getting used to, and no they are generally not easy to jump in, but if that is the saddle the pony comes with, then you will have to grin and bear it I'm afraid.

The only alternative, IF you are offered this pony, is to ask the owner if they would mind you getting a saddler in and purchasing your own saddle for it, AND paying for regular fits as the pony changes shape throughout the year, and I don't just mean any "saddler", I mean a proper Society of Master Saddlers qualified Saddle Fitter, and nothing else.
 
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Leo Walker said:
I cant see how that saddle fits anything! Its got a very narrow gullet, what looks to be a very curved tree, and its very narrow. I dont care how advanced they were at the time, that wouldnt fit any of the numerous horses I have owned in the last 30 years, and I cant think of a single one off hand that I have worked with either and there has been hundreds of those
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So have horses changed that much in 30 years? Because I only had that saddle for many of the past decades and I didn't have horses who displayed any pain or behavioural issues. The proof of the pudding as they say
 
Old saddles were designed/manufactured before we had a better understanding of how to fit a saddle to optimise the comfort and athletic ability of the horse wearing it. Turn the saddle over and see if you can fit four fingers along the entire length of the gullet. If not it won't be wide enough to avoid pinching the spine. Also look at the panels which will probably be quite narrow in comparison to a more modern saddle thus putting more pressure over a smaller area and potentially damaging the muscles of the horses back. Another thing to check is how far up the panels are in the front arch of the saddle - older saddles have panels attached too far up causing them to pinch around the withers and shoulders.

I am an old fart and remember when a horse was considered old at fifteen due to less knowledgeable management in general and almost all horses has white marks around their withers and other places on their backs due to crap saddles although we didn't know it at the time.. Thankfully these day are long gone (in most cases). IME most saddles older then 15/20 years should be chucked in a skip or nailed to a pub wall.

Treeless saddles are a funny one, like marmite. The whole point of a tree is to ensure the rider's weight is not put on the horse's spine. They seem to be OK on chunky, cobby or native types whose spines are protected by muscle or fat and are in a dip/not prominent but they do generally seem prone to slip around a bit and not necessarily put the rider in the best, most effective or balanced position.

I'd suggest you check out any changes to the horses tack regime with the owners before instituting them as they may have strong views (understandably) on the subject.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
I'm another would be in the "incandescent/vapourisation" camp if someone changed my horse's saddle whilst he was on loan to them! Especially if it was to an old saddle which was in use some 50 years ago!! and a saddle that "someone says will fit everything". God help us, NO!! FFS. That was the generally philosophy of 50 years ago, I can remember it (just!!) from my Pony Club days - result was a lot of uncomfortable horses :( There is always some "expert" who says one saddle will fit everything, no it will not!

If I even suspected that someone would be changing the saddle if I'd let my horse on loan to them, then sorry they wouldn't be offered it, and if I knew it had happened then I'd darn well go and get my horse back again!

IF you are committed to taking on this pony, and if you are in fact offered it, then you will have to be prepared to take it on with the saddle which it has been ridden in. I've got a Barefoot saddle, treeless saddles DO admittedly take a little getting used to, and no they are generally not easy to jump in, but if that is the saddle the pony comes with, then you will have to grin and bear it I'm afraid.

The only alternative, IF you are offered this pony, is to ask the owner if they would mind you getting a saddler in and purchasing your own saddle for it, AND paying for regular fits as the pony changes shape throughout the year, and I don't just mean any "saddler", I mean a proper Society of Master Saddlers qualified Saddle Fitter, and nothing else.
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Sorry, I thought it went without saying that I'd ask the owner about it - I wouldn't just discard the saddle the pony came with and start using an old one without making sure the owner knew and having a saddler check it (saddler I've used in the past is a Master Saddler so would be using him again).
 
catkin said:
The owner's reason for using a treeless (the pony changes shape through the year) is a very valid one.
The 'look' of a saddle is very far down the list of priorities when choosing one - it's all about fit.
Click to expand...

The fit is definitely more important than the look, BUT if the other saddle did miraculously fit and owner agreed then I can't see the harm in using it. It was a hypothetical question - I just wanted people's experience of treeless saddles and of older saddles.
 
Kezzabell2 said:
I'm sorry but I just cannot see how one saddle would fit everything! some horses might be more understanding than others! but have owned two connemara x's I'd be very surprised if you'd be that luck with her!! both have mine will always tell me when something isn't right!
Click to expand...


My cob would definitely have let us know if he didn't like it! He was the most stubborn and opinionated horse I've met and he napped quite badly, but the napping almost stopped with the 'new' old saddle and he felt very free in it. He was not the kind of horse to put up with anything.
 
Alwaysmoretoknow said:
Old saddles were designed/manufactured before we had a better understanding of how to fit a saddle to optimise the comfort and athletic ability of the horse wearing it. Turn the saddle over and see if you can fit four fingers along the entire length of the gullet. If not it won't be wide enough to avoid pinching the spine. Also look at the panels which will probably be quite narrow in comparison to a more modern saddle thus putting more pressure over a smaller area and potentially damaging the muscles of the horses back. Another thing to check is how far up the panels are in the front arch of the saddle - older saddles have panels attached too far up causing them to pinch around the withers and shoulders.

I am an old fart and remember when a horse was considered old at fifteen due to less knowledgeable management in general and almost all horses has white marks around their withers and other places on their backs due to crap saddles although we didn't know it at the time.. Thankfully these day are long gone (in most cases). IME most saddles older then 15/20 years should be chucked in a skip or nailed to a pub wall.

Treeless saddles are a funny one, like marmite. The whole point of a tree is to ensure the rider's weight is not put on the horse's spine. They seem to be OK on chunky, cobby or native types whose spines are protected by muscle or fat and are in a dip/not prominent but they do generally seem prone to slip around a bit and not necessarily put the rider in the best, most effective or balanced position.

I'd suggest you check out any changes to the horses tack regime with the owners before instituting them as they may have strong views (understandably) on the subject.
Click to expand...


Thank you - I'll have another look at the saddle tomorrow but maybe it's not usable any more. I'll definitely speak to the owner about it, but I've never actually ridden in a treeless saddle so maybe when I try the pony I'll decide that I don't mind it.
 
hollymarsh said:
The fit is definitely more important than the look, BUT if the other saddle did miraculously fit and owner agreed then I can't see the harm in using it. It was a hypothetical question - I just wanted people's experience of treeless saddles and of older saddles.
Click to expand...

Not all treeless saddles are like the barefoot, which has no knee roll. I have used one for years on wide, changing shaped horses, and jumped in it too, but it isn't for everyone. I found a freedom holistic saddle, made by Barry Swain, which is treeless, but looks like a conventional GP, with removeable knee rolls. very good quality buffalo hide leather, and all mine go well in it. there are quite a few our there secondhand, and they don't break the bank.
 
Ditto others, if it's a loan you need to discuss with owner

Personally I can't stand treeless so it would have to be one hell of a horse to not walk away from!
 
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