Old school v's new school

[R2R]

Just a thought, but hunting has gone through so much in the past decade - sometimes, just sometimes, I think the 'old school' attitude does more harm than good.

Whilst I am a supporter of immaculate turnout, the preservation of hunting traditions (pink coats and hunting 'true' rather than hunting 'trail') surely the sustainability of hunting in the future relies on hunting being more accessible and welcoming?

Who is to say someone in a ratcatcher and scull cap wont support the hunt and be an active member of fundraising etc as someone in a Patey and tailored hunt coat?

Perhaps hunts should adapt, have non jumping masters for instance, welcome newcomers for free, and even discount the cap, which can be extraordinarily expensive for some people?

I would hunt every saturday if the cap was the cost of an hours lesson, and I am sure countless others would too.

I just think that the hunting world would do better to be more accessible to the grass routes riders who dont compete but would love to follow....but are too scared to in case the jumps knock their confidence, their saddle cloth is incorrect, or they have the wrong style boots.

I would be interested to hear what others think?

 

[peanut]

I think hunting has moved on and most of the adaptions you mention have been met. I went on a newcomers day and didn't have to pay; everyone was very friendly; turn out had to be smart but not 100% old school etc

 

[chestnut cob]

I can only comment from my personal experience which is that I think it depends so much on the hunt themselves. The hunt I go out with try as hard as possible to make it affordable; I was looking to buy a 6 day visitor package, so after cubbing a few times, the Sec suggested going out once and paying full visitor cap, which she would then deduct from the remainder I needed to pay for my package, and I'd still get my full 6 days afterwards (so basically first day free to make sure I enjoyed my new horse out hunting). They have been incredibly welcoming - I have been reassured a few times that there will always be a way around jumps, that there will always be someone who isn't jumping, and for this saturday's meet, someone has offered themselves up for me to follow if I'm concerned about getting over any of the jumps. At every cubbing outing, the Sec and Hunt Staff have made a point of coming over to see how we're getting on. Everyone is always immaculately turned out, though I'd say I see more people in skull caps than Patey's!

So maybe it's dependent on the individual hunt? FWIW, when I lived in the SE, I really struggled to find a welcoming pack.

 

[AmyMay]

Evolution is all part of life, and it's only natural that hunting should evolve to some degree too. However, lots of traditions are in place because they 'work', as it were.

I would imagine that quite a few hunts accomodate those less able to afford hunting than others. So perhaps they allow a member to pay a point to point sub rather than an annual or half year sub - if they are better able to afford it.

However, hunts are also a business and rely on the money their members pay to support the hunt staff, hounds and horses. I would think that most hunts run at a loss.

Many hunts (if not all) have a new commers day where a reduced cap is paid - or even no cap.

 

[Eira]

Completely agree with your sentiments ChestnutCob ! I think it most certainly varies from pack to pack and where you are in the country!
I would class my self as a 'new school' hunter because I have come to hunting very recently (well become heavily involved in it more recently as I was an occasional hunter before)

FWIW , The hunt that I hunt with welcomes newcomers every day of the year and if you are wearing the wrong boots - DON'T WORRY which IMO is a great attitude to have. Don't get me wrong we are all still expected to be turned out smartly (and for the most part correctly!) but you won't be hung drawn and quartered for forgetting to wear a hairnet!!

My sub is very reasonable though so I wouldn't know about reduced subs and caps etc..!

 

[millitiger]

i absolutely agree with everything you say R2R.

i think many people are put off from trying to get involved with hunting due to many preconcieved ideas about dress code etc- whereas most hunt staff are actually extremely welcoming.

i know i certainly would not have started hunting had i not moved to a yard where the YO went out twice a week and invited me along, helped me with what to wear etc.

i think it is a huge shame if people are put off joining their local hunt because they can't tie a stock or afford a pair of boots for hunting and a pair of boots for hunting.

the same with jackets- as long as it is smart and not bright pink, what is the problem.
someone on here a few weeks ago said she cringes when she sees people in black show jackets instead of black hunting jackets.
really???? does it honestly matter that much if the person has made the effort to fit in and cannot afford to buy another jacket?
how do you think that sort of attitude makes newcomers feel?

 

[LouBerry]

I can understand traditions and i believe there are certain sets of rules you need to stick to e.g. no bright colours, no fancy bling, horses smart and well turned out, every person needs to have manners and make an effort to learn the hunting language and whats' what but i do believe that sometimes people are made to feel far too uncomfortable by some of the "fashion police".

You need to make an effort to fit in with the traditions and rules that are in place but at the end of the day most hunts and most staff/regulars will be human, they will understand that a lot of people nowadays can't afford Pateys and top of the range gear.

I don't deal well with snide madams anyway, i find it extremely bad mannered to laugh or be snide about people when they've made an effort or are trying to support hunting.

 

[marmalade76]

I do agree re the cost. The farm where I keep my horse is Thursday country and the cap is £55. I cannot justify paying that much to hunt on land I can ride on anyway, and spend most of the day standing around gassing, not even being able to see the hounds most of the time. Bloodhounding is cheaper and you are guaranteed a good ride with plenty of jumping.

Yes, hunts need to cover their costs, but if it was more affordable, more people would go more often. Surely it would be better to have me for a couple of hours and, say, an extra £20, than not?

A few seasons ago, my YO asked if her sub would cover me to hunt, but the sec told me (not within earshot of YO) that her sub was not enough to cover me hunting for the very occational day, despite the fact that on that particular day, the meet was at YO's farm, she walks hound pups every year and she has been supporting said hunt since before said sec had been born!

 

[combat_claire]

R2R I've just posted in a similar vein on the turnout thread. Totally agree with most of the points you have made.

Hunting needs new blood to survive and I have seen so much snotty behaviour from mounted field treating bike and foot followers like something nasty they have trodden in, new people being screamed at for making a mistake without any helpful, gentle teaching being tried first and comments on web forums about people daring to wear a showjumping jacket on their first day out.

This all smacks of people really needing to get a grip. I love smart turnout it is respectful to the landowner and the efforts that have been put into arranging a day hunting. However if people are doing their best with the money and resources they have then they should be welcomed and not despised.

Newcomers' days have been incredibly successful. We also have two dedicated junior meets a year, where adults are only on hand to supervise or hunt hounds. We also have packages that are cheaper for juniors and under 25s, not to mention a 7 day special for occasional hunting folk. The secretaries are also very good at arranging 'babysitters' for worried newbies during the season, people on hand to guide them through what can be a maze of etiquette.

Verdict: Must try harder

 

[R2R]

C_C, with regards to cost, surely it would be better to have someone hunt every Saturday for £40, than every other (or less) saturday for £70, which is the average cap around here.

Also, my hunt wont let me pay by monthly direct debit, which I think is a bit mean considering I dont just have £1000's in the bank....

I agree re: snidey comments, I know newcomers etc must be terribly inconvenient for seasoned hunters, however they are the future of hunting.

 

[combat_claire]

We're quite cheap anyway as we ain't a smart shires pack, I appreciate that it can be a pricey activity, which is why we try and offer the best deals we can - a 7 day sub essentially reduces the price per day from £55 to nearer £40 which is a decent saving - remember as well that the £55 day cap or £70 covers at least 5 hours riding. However at the end of the day wages still need to be paid, fuel bought, hounds fed, hunt horses shod and a thousand and one other expenses which need to be met. Supporting hunt events to raise funds is an excellent way of keeping the subs costs down.

I'm surprised that they won't let you pay by direct debit. Have you tried explaining your situation to the treasurer or compromising with 4 lump sums??

A smile and a kind word after all costs nothing.

 

[Simsar]

I am afraid that we are very much from the old school train of thought. I don't think that most hunts would mind newcomers coming out in smart show jackets and jod boots and gaiters for the first few times to see if hunting is for you, but I don't feel that this is something that should be a continual thing. Hunt coats are worn for a reason (to keep you warm & protect you from the elements) and the same with boots.

If you were going to support another sport that you enjoy you would try and turn yourself out accordingly (you would go with the tradition ie:football= football kit, racing= silks etc) I know that most of you do not aspire to race etc but if you did you would have to follow there traditions so why not with hunting?

With regard to hunt fee and caps I can see both sides of the argument as I know that the hunts have to try to make money but I too sometimes feel that there fees can be ridiculous.

 

[RunToEarth]

My parents are old school, I have been hunting since I was tiny and until I moved away to university I have had my mum stood over telling me what to do, making sure my tack was clean and making sure I turned out correctly. I can do this by my self now. My OH is amateur whip, his father a master and his mum a wonderful horsewoman. They too have the same high expectations in turnout, I won't appologise for making an effort in how myself and my horses look because I think that is important.
As I said in a previous thread, I'm not really bothered in faux pas, but I do think it is important to point out how newbs should be turned out in a polite and friendly manner. Of course I have no problem with a ratcatcher and a skull cap, these are acceptable and correct dress anyway, but I do think it is important to keep turnout standards high.
The only thing that bothers me are bad manners, and that is something that is not exclusive to the hunting fields and certainly is something which people NEED in life. Little things like saying thankyou when people get off to open gates, finding the sec instead of the sec having to find you, putting a kicker at the back of the field, not expecting everyone to avoid the red ribbon like the plague, using other people's horse's bottom as a form of brakes, and loud ringtones, NO.
I met a lovely little girl out the other day who was a newb, she had a lovely little pony and had plaited up herself, a very good attempt, had correct dress although she told me she thought her mum had tied her 'stork' too tight around her neck She was really ace, and said she had read a book on how to behave out hunting and was even telling me some rules about turning ponies' bottoms away from hounds.
I agree it is more about encouraging people than frowning upon those who do not dress correctly, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the sec pointing out little things like tying ribbons up on hats.

 

[R2R]

Prehaps I just think that it would be far better for hunts to have 10 people paying £40 having a great day in thermals and show jackets, than 1 person with their ribbons tied up and a hunt coat.

It is why hunting has an image of being a closed group of people...and why things need to change, in my opinion.

Rosiie you are clearly very lucky to have been brought up in a hunting family...however not everyone is as fortunate to have such a good education, and I dont see how having more people out hunting, all be it not in proper boots, can be anything other than positive for the sustainability of huntings future.

On one hand tradition should be observed, on the other it should be adapted. Simstar, the football playing analagy is a good one, am I any less of a player becasue my boots are ancient and not the lates Nikes, and my shorts are unbranded rather than £60 a pair? Or if I race, am I any less likely to win becasue my silks are actually polyester?

Its the people in the boots that matter, to be honest.

 

[millitiger]

qr- but if a hunting jacket is only correct because it keeps you warm, does it affect anyone but the wearer if they are in a thin show jacket?
same with boots, yes long boots are safer in case you get caught in something but again only the wearer is at risk.

rosiepimms- no-one is asking you to apologise for being nicely turned out.
i think people are just a little fed up on here and in real life with the constant disparaging remarks made about boots, jackets, stocks and body protectors.

i don't think anyone is disagreeing with manners on the field and tbh, i think that is a totally different topic.

 

[R2R]

mitlinger - totally agree re manners, no excuse for bad ones. What I was trying to say above is I dont see how you are any less of a hunter if you cant afford long boots and a hunt coat, what matters is getting you out there, and if that means a shirt and tie with pullover instead of a stock, a saddle cloth or a pink body protector, so long as you have made the effort to actually get up plait your horse, clean your tack and show up, surely thats what matters?

 

[spacefaer]

I think the questions re turnout partly come down to practicality.

Heavy wool hunt coats are much warmer and more waterproof than thin polyester showjumping jackets - I would never criticise someone for coming hunting in a show jacket - I would only hope they've got thermals/sweater etc underneath because otherwise they'll freeze/get soaked and have a horrible day. I wear my hunt coat because I feel the cold and hate being wet.

I don't think anyone is less of a hunter for wearing the perceived "wrong" clothes - I think they'll be cold, wet and uncomfortable but that's their choice. Most people who hunt regularly and over several seasons tend to invest in the "proper" kit - even 2nd hand off ebay - for practical reasons.

I would make an assumption about anyone wearing "wrong" clothes - that they don't hunt often and may be a newcomer and need some help. I try to keep an eye on someone like that, to make sure they're in the right place at the right time and know what's going on.

There are several hunts round us with dedicated non jumping field masters - we were out on the last day of the season with one last spring and there were 94 mounted followers out, 62 of which were in the non jumping field.

 

[Parkranger]

I suppose I'm lucky because the hunt goes through my yard a few times a year and we only pay a £20 cap! I wouldn't want to hunt for the whole season anyway. Agree that financially it should be more accessible to other people....

 

[Simsar]

What I mean by the football is as you said "your still in football boots and shorts" so why not a hunt coat and long boots!!?? The can even be rubber boots, most of the kids were them around us. The hunts have a newcomers day for a reason. I personally haven't been on one but do they not tell you what to wear how to behave (etiquette). Or even at the top of the forum do they not have a hunting for beginners post?? If in doubt go on foot and following to see what goes on. Its a service to farmers not a hooly! So respect the code! Mean't in the nicest way before you jump on me.

 

[R2R]

Simsar, for all everone says about 'jumping' in the hunting community, I would really rather not jump on you

My point is that I think hunts should not worry so much about hunt coats and long boots and more about getting people hunting - fair enough if they do a season, but if I am oly out five or six times why should I change my gaiters for non dressage topped long boots, and replace my thin wool show jacket with a thick hunt coat?

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I Agree that financially it should be more accessible to other people....

Why should it?? In life some things are cheap some things are not. Yes there may be those who wish to hunt and can't afford it, but surely that is true of everything? Should BE membership etc be cheaper so more can afford it, should M & S food be cheaper so that everyone can buy their food there?? Unfortunately life is such that there are always things we can't afford. You just have to prioritise what you want and save as necessary.

 

[Scoutie]

I agree with R2R and am really surprised at some of the comments. I am new to hunting having subscribed for the first time this year and I have never felt anything but welcome. It would never occur to me that I was being criticised for what I was wearing, surely it is more important to have new blood (ever if a bit old!) and keep the traditions going then be rude and that person never come back? Some people don't have the money to buy a whole new kit before trying a new discipline, and if they don't enjoy it is a waste of money.

As regards the cap, I did go hunting a couple of times last year to try it out. A friend liaised with the secretary and always negotiated a cheaper cap, I guess with there was the expectation that I would eventually subscribe. They were correct but I needed to have consistently good experiences before I could be persuaded it was a good idea. I think that had I wanted to I could have paid over six months as well. Maybe I am just lucky but I have met some lovely friendly people.

 

[Simsar]

LOL! We do want to get you hunting but surely you would want to do it correctly! OK another way, if you wanted to join the mounted games would you not wear the stuff?? Its a club and we have a uniform. Loads of people have bought of ebay including me, so why not support our tradition in the manner it deserves.

 

[ester]

Newbie point of view here

hoping to get out a few times this season but can't afford too often, maybe 6 tops. I can do everything turn out wise apart from the coat and will be in my nasty polyester show jacket- that is the cheapest you can buy! . I hope that if it looks like rain (though I might not go then!) that noone would frown on me too much for wearing a black waterproof. In fact never sure why hunts dont seem to go for waterproofs and gortex in this day and age, seems sensible to me!

Everything I buy horse wise has to be considered and through need and I really couldnt warrant the purchase of a black hunt coat even second hand. my tweed jacket and leather boots were my mums when she was 18 (now 51 ) but they are smart and practical and do at least show how long stuff lasts, I would actually like to wear the tweed out as it is warm and keeps me mostly dry.

I would never dream of turning up looking scruffy, horse will be clean and plaited, tack will be plain etc etc.

i have no idea what a hat ribbon is!

 

[R2R]

LOL! We do want to get you hunting but surely you would want to do it correctly! OK another way, if you wanted to join the mounted games would you not wear the stuff?? Its a club and we have a uniform. Loads of people have bought of ebay including me, so why not support our tradition in the manner it deserves.

I have just realised where you are based

I just think some people scrimp enough for a days hunting, let alone having to worry about the style of their boots...surely its better they actually turn up, dressage boots and saddle cloth or not? :grin:

 

[ester]

surely mounted games uniform costs nothing like hunt coats and long leather boots even 2nd hand if you can find them!

 

[Simsar]

The cost was not my point, it was the uniform. Yes we are in Surrey but we earn very little believe it or not and trust me I'm not posh!!!

 

[ester]

But the cost is the factor, if I could go and dress myself for a fiver I would! it is the cost that is prohibitory and I would rather spend that money on a days hunting than something I am not going to wear very much.

It is also about being inclusive. I am quite RC involved you get new owners all the time, they often dont have all the kit to start and they are only going to do a bit. As long as they come to dressage looking vaguely smart all round it really doesnt matter!

I wouldnt turn up to anything looking like a scruff but.....

 

[Simsar]

OK try and think of it this way, when you start out in dressage you would do your test in smart riding gear but not top hat and tails.
Novice dressage = newcomers day
Prix st george= regular follower
When you move up the dressage ranks you would then invest in T H & T.
(I hope this makes sense, dressage not my strong point)

As with most equestrian sports the equipment is expensive and you don't want to spend fortunes if it is something that you will not continue with, but if you enjoy it and would like to take part regularly then you make the investment on the correct kit!

 

[ester]

thats ok then because I have probably got years before I can afford to become a proper regular follower. *inserts non functioning smilie*

Ps what is a hat ribbon!?