Older horse - teeth - feeling worried :-(

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soloequestrian

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I have a 17hh TB who is in his late teens, possibly early 20's. He's never been a particularly good doer, but he was getting a reasonable size tea of oats and Fast Fibre each night and seemed to be enjoying it. He was seen by the dentist a couple of weeks ago and she said his teeth are getting a bit ropey. Since then he has been weird about his food. He seemed okay the first few days after having his teeth rasped, but then he started to pause part way through his feed and struggle to swallow properly. This has got worse, to the point where he eats part of the feed and then just stops. I've cut it down to about half what he was getting and making it very wet, but he is still struggling and quidding quite a lot. When I feel his teeth, the seem very smooth which in one way is good (no sharp edges), but in another is worrying me - I wonder if he needed a bit of what was removed to allow him to chew properly.
I'm going to get in touch with the dentist and ask her advice (and see if she can reassure me that I should keep using her), but I wondered if anyone had any advice for this situation because obviously whatever the dentist says won't be able to change how the horse is behaving. I really need to pump him full of feed over the winter and it feels as if it might be impossible at the moment.
 
im sure he is fine! my 29yr old mare has fast fibre and has tiny little pegs for teeth! the front ones barely touch together anymore, god knows how she get grass! but the dentist wasn't worried at all, she said that you'd be surprised how short their teeth can get and they can still eat!

I also knew an ex racer who wind sucked so much that he broke off his 2 front teeth!

anyway, I'd try putting something like mint in his dinner to see if it makes it more interesting for him? it might just be a bit boring?
 
Frumpoon said:
Honestly......get a vet in, from a really good multi partner practice.....
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It sounds to me as if she may have taken too much off, it happened to one of my liveries and required a vet to sort out as he could not eat properly and was quidding, he had been eating perfectly well before the dentist did his teeth.
 
be positive said:
It sounds to me as if she may have taken too much off, it happened to one of my liveries and required a vet to sort out as he could not eat properly and was quidding, he had been eating perfectly well before the dentist did his teeth.
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Thanks, that's interesting - do you know what they did to sort it out? I can't imagine how it could be done?
 
soloequestrian said:
Thanks, that's interesting - do you know what they did to sort it out? I can't imagine how it could be done?
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They unfortunately had to reduce the incisors as he had lost the bite required for chewing due to the dentist doing too much rasping, he was a very good dentist who was highly recommended but never came near any of mine after that experience.
 
be positive said:
It sounds to me as if she may have taken too much off, it happened to one of my liveries and required a vet to sort out as he could not eat properly and was quidding, he had been eating perfectly well before the dentist did his teeth.
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Totally agree, iv seen this a few times from dentists being over happy with their tools. I always use my vet now.
 
be positive said:
They unfortunately had to reduce the incisors as he had lost the bite required for chewing due to the dentist doing too much rasping, he was a very good dentist who was highly recommended but never came near any of mine after that experience.
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Do you mean molars? His incisors are fine, and wouldn't normally be rasped. It would make sense for molars but it would be very depressing to have to do that when he probably doesn't have vast quantities of molar left!
I have e-mailed my vet - it's that horrible argument about who knows better about teeth, up until now I would have said dentist but I'm wobbling....
 
Kezzabell2 said:
im sure he is fine! my 29yr old mare has fast fibre and has tiny little pegs for teeth! the front ones barely touch together anymore, god knows how she get grass! but the dentist wasn't worried at all, she said that you'd be surprised how short their teeth can get and they can still eat!

I also knew an ex racer who wind sucked so much that he broke off his 2 front teeth!

anyway, I'd try putting something like mint in his dinner to see if it makes it more interesting for him? it might just be a bit boring?
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Think you have missed the point a bit, the horse was fine until his teeth were done so the owner is right to be concerned and not ignoring it by thinking his dinner is boring.
 
Was the horse rasped with manual rasp or powered? If the horse has ageing dentition, manual rasping can be quite problematic. The force used to manual rasp can cause pain and help to loosen teeth further. How have you felt the teeth? Without a gag I am not sure how you can feel the grinding surface of the molars that far back. The pre-molars may feel smooth if the dentist has rounded them off slightly for bitting? The sides of the teeth would have had sharp points removed and will not affect the grinding of food, it is the occlusal surface that is important. Maybe get the dentist back out to have a look, a qualified dentist if yours is not, or a vet specialising in dentistry. http://www.baedt.com/members_5357.html
 
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soloequestrian said:
Do you mean molars? His incisors are fine, and wouldn't normally be rasped. It would make sense for molars but it would be very depressing to have to do that when he probably doesn't have vast quantities of molar left!
I have e-mailed my vet - it's that horrible argument about who knows better about teeth, up until now I would have said dentist but I'm wobbling....
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I think (s)he means the molars don't meet because the dentist rasped too much off so the incisors need to be rasped to allow the molars to meet.

A dentist took too much off my horses teeth and he started getting choke. It was the one time I used a highly recommend and qualified dentist. I always use the vet now. I suspect yours is choking too, the pause and difficulty swallowing, so feed mash that doesn't need much chewing.
 
Poor chap. We've had a dentist tell us he's not going to do anything to one of my friend's old horses (apart from remove one sharp bit) for the past 2 visits as it would make them worse and as the horse is carrying condition that teeth aren't an issue.
 
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soloequestrian said:
Do you mean molars? His incisors are fine, and wouldn't normally be rasped. It would make sense for molars but it would be very depressing to have to do that when he probably doesn't have vast quantities of molar left!
I have e-mailed my vet - it's that horrible argument about who knows better about teeth, up until now I would have said dentist but I'm wobbling....
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Sugar_and_Spice said:
I think (s)he means the molars don't meet because the dentist rasped too much off so the incisors need to be rasped to allow the molars to meet.

A dentist took too much off my horses teeth and he started getting choke. It was the one time I used a highly recommend and qualified dentist. I always use the vet now. I suspect yours is choking too, the pause and difficulty swallowing, so feed mash that doesn't need much chewing.
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Sorry went out, yes it was the incisors that required trimming to allow the molars to meet properly so he could chew his food, he had trouble eating hay and was starting to choke at times and was quidding constantly due to being unable to masticate correctly, normally the incisors would not be rasped but with this horse they had to be to enable him to eat. I think an electric rasp was used by the dentist who must have got carried away for some reason.
 
Also sounds to me that the dentist has floated off too much of the molars. You have to be soooo careful with whom you allow to file very old horses teeth. I have a 37 year old and my vet told me not to have his teeth done again after he did them 2 years ago as they just would not cope with being done again. So my old guy is on his own now and he still does pretty well on his soupy food. I have to feed a lot in the winter as we are under snow for months on end over here and he's not great at managing hay. Summers are fine for him as he can still eat grass. If it were me I would call in a vet who has good knowledge of old horses teeth.
 
Spring Feather said:
Also sounds to me that the dentist has floated off too much of the molars. You have to be soooo careful with whom you allow to file very old horses teeth. I have a 37 year old and my vet told me not to have his teeth done again after he did them 2 years ago as they just would not cope with being done again. So my old guy is on his own now and he still does pretty well on his soupy food. I have to feed a lot in the winter as we are under snow for months on end over here and he's not great at managing hay. Summers are fine for him as he can still eat grass. If it were me I would call in a vet who has good knowledge of old horses teeth.
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I agree with this. Definitely not hand-rasping and only the absolute minimum when some work is necessary. My old girl started showing signs of "swallowing" difficulties out of the blue - she would chomp away happily but just at the point of swallowing she would push the ball of haylage forward and spit it out. I had my suspicions as to what was causing it and wasn't too concerned as her net was really for entertainment, she got everthing she needed from her soaked feed, and about 3 weeks later, my theory was confirmed - sitting at the bottom of her feed bucket was her furthest back molar ( a huge great thing!. It was obviously wobbling when the food ball reached it, hence the spitting out. Everything went back to normal immediatly it was out.
 
Spring Feather said:
Also sounds to me that the dentist has floated off too much of the molars. You have to be soooo careful with whom you allow to file very old horses teeth. I have a 37 year old and my vet told me not to have his teeth done again after he did them 2 years ago as they just would not cope with being done again. So my old guy is on his own now and he still does pretty well on his soupy food. I have to feed a lot in the winter as we are under snow for months on end over here and he's not great at managing hay. Summers are fine for him as he can still eat grass. If it were me I would call in a vet who has good knowledge of old horses teeth.
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Another vote for this quote full of common sense and intelligent thinking from the vet concerned. My vet won't touch my 36 yr old's teeth for the same reason. She has a look around for problems, but also says that rasping such an oldies teeth could cause more problems than cures. He can eat just fine, bit slowly sometimes, but manages his feeds, hay and grass perfectly adequately.
 
OP, I hope that your lad is soon comfortable again. It's depressing when you feel let down by a professional, and your horse suffers.

A good EDT or vet will remove as little as possible from an elderly horse's teeth.

When I had a 21year old mare on loan earlier on this year, I had the EDT out to her. She clearly hadn't had her teeth attended to for a long time, if ever, and they were in a shockingly sharp state. He was careful to take off the minimum necessary for her to be comfortable, and she was so much happier afterwards.
 
be positive said:
It sounds to me as if she may have taken too much off, it happened to one of my liveries and required a vet to sort out as he could not eat properly and was quidding, he had been eating perfectly well before the dentist did his teeth.
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This is why I won't have a dentist to mine until I notice a problem. I'm not at all sure about rasping the teeth of every horse, regardless. Mine are on a natural diet with no hard feed, and even the one pushing 30 can munch his way through a stand of nettles like a pro, having never seen a dentist in his life. I figure if it's not broke...
 
pennyturner said:
This is why I won't have a dentist to mine until I notice a problem. I'm not at all sure about rasping the teeth of every horse, regardless. Mine are on a natural diet with no hard feed, and even the one pushing 30 can munch his way through a stand of nettles like a pro, having never seen a dentist in his life. I figure if it's not broke...
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Do you check for sharp edges though? He might be eating, but painfully, with ulceration to the insides of his mouth, the horse who has even molars that wear each other smoothly is very rare - and very lucky. My old mare never went off her food, and this was in the days before dental was on everyone's list of things to do. When she began being difficult about having the bit I got her checked - and she had a spur long enough to be digging into the opposite gum. It was a general anaesthetic job and had to have the whole tooth removed. Rasping would have kept it in check.
 
I have a look and feel around in his mouth from time to time, but mostly I watch how he eats - He's getting to an age where I'm very lucky to have him going through winter on forage, so any sign that he's struggling to chew would ring alarm bells for me. I gave him a very good looking over earlier in the summer (he got something stuck to the roof of his mouth and was pulling faces) - he wasn't impressed.
 
pennyturner said:
This is why I won't have a dentist to mine until I notice a problem. I'm not at all sure about rasping the teeth of every horse, regardless. Mine are on a natural diet with no hard feed, and even the one pushing 30 can munch his way through a stand of nettles like a pro, having never seen a dentist in his life. I figure if it's not broke...
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A very practical approach. My vet the same one that just checks my old boys, is pretty much of the same opinion. In fact thanks to her I really did get to thinking about this, and it makes total sense, how many of us go to the dentist every six months (be honest now) and get told nothing needs doing, so why wouldn't the same be true for our horses? OK I know that their teeth grow continually, but they are also ground down continually, so if you keep a check yourself on the state of their teeth, as you do your own, then just get the vet/dentist when needed. Six monthly raspings might not be the totally correct way to go.
 
I'm quite surprised that any vets still manually rasp in the UK. I haven't seen a manual rasp for many years over here. I wouldn't have any of my horses manually rasped, I much prefer my (super-experienced) vet to perform his magic with power floating (dangerous piece of kit for someone without experience though!).
 
3OldPonies said:
OK I know that their teeth grow continually, but they are also ground down continually, so if you keep a check yourself on the state of their teeth, as you do your own, then just get the vet/dentist when needed. Six monthly raspings might not be the totally correct way to go.
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Each molar is ground down by the opposite one on the other jaw. If either is loose or not quite straight it won't wear it's opposite number straight, or if one has been lost there is nothing to grind down the opposite one and that is when you get sharp edges and hooks. Very common, mine have also had waves so they aren't wearing down equally along the length of the jaw. Fair enough if you don't want them floated but they do need checking, especially as they get older - run your thumb up the outside of the molars inside the cheek and feel for sharp edges. It isn't practicable to check the inside against the tongue unless you have a gag but you can pull the tongue out and look for ulceration.
 
Spring Feather said:
I'm quite surprised that any vets still manually rasp in the UK. I haven't seen a manual rasp for many years over here. I wouldn't have any of my horses manually rasped, I much prefer my (super-experienced) vet to perform his magic with power floating (dangerous piece of kit for someone without experience though!).
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You wouldn't have got within a yard of my mare wth an electric rasp I'm afraid. Even the quietest small clippers on the market were not allowed further forward than her jawbone.
 
Just an update on this. I talked the the dentist - I've had her for several years and she has always been really good, so didn't want to just drop her and rush off somewhere else. She said that it may be that the change in his mouth was uncomfortable for him, and he would just need time to get used to it. I just kept him on smaller feeds for a few weeks and have now been able to increase them again - he is scoffing the lot now and licking the bowl clear with no quidding or choking. Phew. I think he will just need more regular visits to make sure there isn't such a big change in his teeth each time now that he is of an age.
My dentist does use an electric rasp, which I like, and oddly while this horse is nervous of clippers (he used to be terrified, so nervous is a big improvement!), he has never bothered at all about the rasp!
 
pennyturner said:
This is why I won't have a dentist to mine until I notice a problem. I'm not at all sure about rasping the teeth of every horse, regardless. Mine are on a natural diet with no hard feed, and even the one pushing 30 can munch his way through a stand of nettles like a pro, having never seen a dentist in his life. I figure if it's not broke...
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I so agree. My youngster is seen regularly but the older boy, who lives out with hay, very rarely. They only grow so much and dentists love whipping it all off. (I use vet, too).
 
Adult horses teeth are fully formed and continue to gradually erupt (come out of the gum) as the grinding surfaces of the teeth wear. The grinding surfaces of the molar teeth (back teeth) have an irregular surface which assists in the grinding of the food in preparation of it being swallowed and then digested. As the grinding surfaces of the molar teeth are gradually worn away the teeth compensate by erupting out of the gum, however the grinding surfaces of the molar teeth gradually become smoother resulting in the food being ground less efficiently. Eventually the grinding surfaces of the teeth become very smooth and there is little or no tooth remaining and the horse is unable to eat certain foods such as hay.
Great care should be taken when rasping older horses teeth as in many cases it will cause more damage than good because there is little tooth remaining.
Using power tools rather than a gentle hand rasp can result in far too much of the tooth being ground away and power tools should never be used on the teeth of elderly horses.
 
OWLIE185 said:
Using power tools rather than a gentle hand rasp can result in far too much of the tooth being ground away and power tools should never be used on the teeth of elderly horses.
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That is the opposite to what we were told by the vets. They said never to manually rasp the veteran's teeth as it could loosen them.
 
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