OldGit in need of help

OldGit

OldGit

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Ok folks, for my sins I'm doing a management course (ILM cert3) and I'm required to produce a report on a particular problem in my business, (hold on, button pushers this is CR). I thought it would be far more interesting to produce a report on the safety aspect of eventing,this is relevant as I'm occasionally a BE doctor and would far prefer less work!!!, . Particularly I want to write a report relating to reducing the incidence of fatalities/serious injuries. Now this is unoffficial and will only be used for my own purposes, but one method of gaining ideas is brainstorming. Basically ideas are thrown into the ring (god even starting to sound like a manager) and not debated, so.............................

To anyone who has remained awake for the intro to this I would be really grateful if people could PM me any ideas to improve safety in eventing. Rest assured contributions will remain confidential, the report will never be passed onto BE, and no ideas will be ridiculed. I'd be grateful if this would occur in the next 48 hours so we have a "defined period", (oh god this course is really getting to me!!!)

To anyone who wants to take the p** or generally mock me feel free to post!!!!!!!
 
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How exciting ;) But love the way you've turned it round to make it sort of interesting to you :D

My ideas would be: more training for grassroots riders, BE Trainers (or no talent spotters) at more events, fewer skinnies, shorter stirrups and fitter riders.
 
hi
my instructor used to event to 4* level and came with me to a couple of events this year (just 90/100) and i asked her what she thought in general
her 1st comment was that the jumps were blo*%&y tiny and what the h**l was wrong with me ,get on with it :) :rolleyes:

she also said there were quite a lot of riders that should not be on course ,they were not good or capable enough to cope
and that the times were causing riders to go at a faster pace than they were capable of riding at
i know these points may cause debate and i don't claim to be a great rider but i don't think i am scary to watch going xc ,i hope not any way :o
but i have seen some shocking riding xc and even sj and i think there should be some sort of test or standard of riding at perhaps 80t level for newcomers before they are able to go on up the levels ,perhaps making more use of the accredited trainers at these events

(i have also seen an accredited trainer at an 80t event allowing/encouraging a young rider to jump a sj the wrong way around ,red flag on left instead of right)
 
Something I've been pondering for ages which I don't think it'll help you assignment, but I'll mention it anyway - what requirements are there in terms of the sort/type of doctor on site at BE events or at the higher levels, at every fence?

Is there a standardised 'we only take those who are qualified in truama care/emergency medicine' (am thinking of ATLS (if it isn't compulsory, I don't know) although I believe there are questions over whether it improves outcomes) or can a GP roll up on a sunday afternoon and be the medical cover?

I know they go all through F1/F2 training albeit with rotations, but who would you want coming to your rescue if you had come off - a village GP who's not seen crush injuries since their training or an emergency med/trauma/orthopedics specialist?

I'd be interested in your thoughts anyway OG (and Kit if she's around too) :)
 
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The Newmarket racecourse doctors are GPs and seriously good ones too. One of them in particular would be my doc of choice for pretty much anything ;) I think he has to some kind of accreditation once a year for that job. Part of the GP training programme is emergency medicine and a lot of them have trained in other specialities before deciding that they want a life (not that I'm bitter or anything) and some sleep. Not all of them are fluffies who tell you there's nothing wrong and your back pain is imaginary ;)
 
kit279 said:
The Newmarket racecourse doctors are GPs and seriously good ones too. One of them in particular would be my doc of choice for pretty much anything ;) I think he has to some kind of accreditation once a year for that job. Part of the GP training programme is emergency medicine and a lot of them have trained in other specialities before deciding that they want a life (not that I'm bitter or anything) and some sleep. Not all of them are fluffies who tell you there's nothing wrong and your back pain is imaginary ;)
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Ahhh medical stereotypes, gotta love them :D I didn't mean any harm but you know what I mean don't you? :o You don't sound bitter! (My GP was all 'yeah be a GP, it's a great job'. I bet it bloody is when you don't do nights, weekends and only work two days a week...She's very good though so I'll let her off).

Interesting re: Newmarket. Any ideas about Badminton/Burghley?
 
Good point Teapot. So far, according to the data I have, all fatalities have resulted from rotational falls. In most instances, death has been as a result of catastrophic injuries which are unsurvivable. Increasingly ATLS is required, especially when organisers only want 1 medic in attendance.

As far as I know there have not been any studies looking at level of medical support vs outcome, but as long as the basic rules are followed, the ability to crack open a chest is not much of an advantage given the constraints of working in a field! Hope that makes sense
 
That does make sense :)

One medic per event though? What happens if two people at opposite ends of the course come off? Especially at the more compact twisty events (am thinking here of somewhere like Smiths' Lawn) which may have access issues. I'm not suggesting that you have a medic at every fence at an intro but just having one (am assuming that's to cover dressage, sj and xc?) isn't exactly high. They have to have ambulance cover though don't they to run?

If I ever get into Med school (not looking likely) I'd love to do some more research on stuff like this. Or how docs treat riders in A&E - not realising that trying to cut someone's Konigs open (when they have a zip) is going to cause more distress to the patient!
 
Fence judges should be more "savvy" on recognising when there is a need for a doctor or paramedic. I think that there have been times when they could've done more and (perhaps) been more observant.

OK, I know they are volunteers but...a little (more) training wouldn't be a bad thing.
 
You haven't been on enough Management courses yet! You no learn proper management speak. Not allowed to say Brainstorm - it is derogatory term - you have to say 'Thought Shower' now.

You never gonna pass this course unless you learn proper speak and buy lots of inspirational posters (ones that hang on walls, not HHO)
 
training on the equicisers (galloping horse simulators) as this way a rider can be trained as they 'gallop', their fitness assessed (can they keep good balance in a 2-point seat for 6 minutes, say?)
more training. compulsory competence test before allowing a rider to commence BE.
more investigation into saddle design and effects of it on rider security & speed of ejection from the plate if horse starts rotating.
more investigation into better rider protection. neck support as used by bike racers (a U.S. event rider is using one apparently), Exos. Publish comparison of protectiveness of different types of body protector (all "level 3 protection").
Fewer skinnies, more straightforward fences at lower levels, removal of time penalties at Training and Intro level, have a generous 'bogey time' that mustn't be exceeded.
more collapsible/frangible fences.
I could go on... ;) ;)
 
This will probably be controversial, but as you said throw idea into the ring:
Stop jumping fixed fences!
So long as eventers continue jumping solid fences there will be more fatalities/ serious accidents than if the fences were not fixed. If fixed fences are an intrinsic part of the competition serious accidents will continue to be a regular occurence.
Please dont be offended by this question, but I am puzzled, how does being a dentist qualify you to be medic at an event, do you have to have other medical training or courses?
 
Doris68 said:
Fence judges should be more "savvy" on recognising when there is a need for a doctor or paramedic. I think that there have been times when they could've done more and (perhaps) been more observant.

OK, I know they are volunteers but...a little (more) training wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Ouch :eek: As a fence judge I would say..... when? I have attended the BE training, although it is not much I am first aid at work trained to give me the absolute basics... what else would you like me to do?
 
People need taught how to approach a fence at speed - everyone these days ends up showjumping the xc fences, at the lower levels anyway.

Then they need taught how to ride a horse at speed, as most people's preparation for Intro and PN involves very little "gallop" work.

Also, people need to be aware that if a horse approaches a fence at a faster speed, a horse needs to have faster reactions (as do they) so more work on grids etc. and gymnastic jumping would enable a horse to react quicker therefore hopefully able to pull its leg out if it accidently leaves one behind.

:)
 
Cheers K do go on!!!! Dieseldog we did have a discusiion before the session to see if this was acceptable! Teapot, very definite rules re no of paramedics Vs docs. To be honest good paramedics are probably of more use because most surgeons are trained to work with the "necessary" equipment, often in a field you aint got it! Doris68 at a recent FEI event I was given a ticking off for not getting off the horses back and dismounting immediately I crossed the line. What actually happened was I had chest infection, crossed he line unable to breath so stayed on the horse until groon arrived (running) promptly collapsed and no bugger (official) checked on me. Was a bit miffed - not for me but could hve been having an asthma attack/MI/etc!!! Most times fence judges make the call fast. There can be some confusion about which fence the fall is (problem with changing around fences, although I have got lost on course myself (officiating as well as competing!!!!)
 
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FestiveSpirit said:
Ouch :eek: meAs a fence judge I would say..... when? I have attended the BE training, although it is not much I am first aid at work trained to give me the absolute basics... what else would you like to do?
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I dont think fence judges should be required to do anything except fence judge.
I saw a horrible accident at a fence where the judges were a fairy elderly couple, the rider was stuck under the horse and there was nothing the fence judges could do.They had called for help but people were screaming and shouting at them to get the horse off the rider which I felt was inapprpropriate and unkind. if I had been in thier position I think I would have packed up and gone home.
Fence judges volunteer so that we riders can take part in a sport which involves risks, they have no responsibility for us when things go wrong.
 
"If I ever get into Med school (not looking likely) I'd love to do some more research on stuff like this. Or how docs treat riders in A&E - not realising that trying to cut someone's Konigs open (when they have a zip) is going to cause more distress to the patient! "

Had my sergios cut off in first month of owning them!! I was in agony and screaming dont cut them please my mum will kill me! and the ambulance men were saying no she will be more worried about me and my leg. First thing she said was tell me you were not wearing your new boots!! Admitedly the zip was useless as foot was back to front on leg and only one way those boots were coming off and it was with drugs and scissors!

"Fence judges volunteer so that we riders can take part in a sport which involves risks, they have no responsibility for us when things go wrong. "
I have to agree with this. I have fence judged for a few year and have been fortunate to not have any nasty falls horse and jockey have always got up and been ok (ish) If i was made to do x number of days training in first aid to volunteer to fence judge- I dont have time to do that- I would volunteer to pick up poles of write for a dressage judge instead!
 
blue2262 said:
This will probably be controversial, but as you said throw idea into the ring:
Stop jumping fixed fences!
So long as eventers continue jumping solid fences there will be more fatalities/ serious accidents than if the fences were not fixed. If fixed fences are an intrinsic part of the competition serious accidents will continue to be a regular occurence.
Please dont be offended by this question, but I am puzzled, how does being a dentist qualify you to be medic at an event, do you have to have other medical training or courses?
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Blue. Dentistry was my first degree, wanted to do facial surgery so needed to do medical degree as part of this did basic surgical training including fellowship exams, rest assure if you fall off you won't be faced with someone who wants to take your teeth out!!!!
 
Shame, I thought it might be easier than trying to get an appointment with my dentist!
Have you, by any chance, got ADHD, you never ever appear to rest, how do you fit it all in?
 
A few points that might not help with your question!

PLEASE don't encourage enforcement of First Aid training for fence judges, I like other posters would not want to do the job if I had to be responsible for medical care beyond good common sense in an incident. I've found radios are a wonderful thing and a lot of FJ's will use them to report bad riding, excessive speed, excessive use of the whip or if they think a horse isn't 'right'. This message gets passed to the right quarters via control.

As for quality of medic cover from intro through to 4* we are incredibly lucky. In our area the paramedics spend the entire season covering equestrian events, with 100's of hours of cross country cover and have the experience that goes with it. I don't know all of the technical requirements that BE has but there's a chunk of the rule book given over to medical equipment etc. Burghley, my local 4*, takes safety very seriously with a large team of doctors. They attend a full day briefing a week in advance of the event.

So how do we improve safety? There's a lot to be said for improving the quality of riding but having said that the hairy ones usually get away with it. I know a lot of pros thoroughly dislike the more technical, trappy, twisty courses that have emerged in recent years. These courses don't encourage forward riding and a good rhythm and it makes it increasingly hard to get the time.

Any way good luck - at least it passes the time before the the new season starts!
 
Doris68 said:
Fence judges should be more "savvy" on recognising when there is a need for a doctor or paramedic. I think that there have been times when they could've done more and (perhaps) been more observant.

OK, I know they are volunteers but...a little (more) training wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Sorry, but I think this is uncalled for and unfair. Fence judges are not there to be back up medics and neither would they want to be. When you have a fall at a fence you are instructed to contact control immediately - in any other circumstance other than where it was a silly tip off and the rider gets up immediately the doctors are usually called by control. The fence judge is there on the scene to be the eyes and ears to control until the right help is on site. Someone mentioned a couple that were shouted at to get a horse off the rider by observers. Having had very 'unhelpful' members of the public stop a horse on course at Belton when actually we were holding a horse to allow the second rider to pass potentially could have lost this rider a placing with their interference! So please don't interfere unless you have been asked to help. Fence judges have enough to do - they don't need or want additional medical responsibilities - as you say - we are volunteers ;)
 
ditto about fence judges, it is really impressive how fast the "cavalry" (paramedics, vets, fence dismantlers etc) get to a fence when the shout goes up on the radio.
a basic First Aid briefing is given at the Fence Judge's Briefing, explaining how to ensure the airway is open. As long as that's done, surely waiting a minute or two for paramedics is okay? no way can we expect every fence judge to have paramedic training!
i do think some fence judges are too slow-reacting (not saying that's an age thing at all, btw) for the job, however. not sure how you can test how someone will react in extremis though...
 
kerilli said:
more investigation into saddle design and effects of it on rider security & speed of ejection from the plate if horse starts rotating.
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I know of an advanced rider who swears the only reason she is alive today is because she was using a treeless saddle when her horse rotated and fell on her. In the pictures of the accident you can see the upside down horse, but you cannot see her at all as she was right underneath him. I'm not suggesting everyone goes treeless :) but it is the rigidity of the saddle landing on the rider which seems to be responsible for many of the catastrophic injuries.
 
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