Olympic (and non) Dressage - silly rules

[MagicMelon]

So after watching the dressage where of course I supported GB, I did feel uncomfortable watching. It doesnt look terribly pleasant anymore IMO, my OH who has always been in horsey families was horrified and said it was like watching circus animals... I feel animal welfare groups are going to come after dressage pretty soon...

So what can be done? Id like to see normal non-double bridles for a start. I know they used to actually be a requirement from a certain level which seems ridiculous, I dont know if this is still the case. Same with spurs. Why? Surely it would show the horse being well trained better without the need for the double bridle and spurs?

I am absolutely no dressage queen, I event and its always been my nemesis but Im all for minimising stuff like I dont even own a whip (or spurs) anymore. Why are whips allowed in any level dressage? Again, surely its better if you dont carry one and perhaps you should get extra marks. Im not saying its better to be booting your horse in the ribs rather than a little tap with the whip but doesnt that all come down to training again? And why oh why are you marked down for using your voice? I cant stand this rule. Surely from a kindness point of view its far nicer for the horse to get some vocal well dones or encouragement if needed?

I just feel not enough is being done for the best interests of the horse ultimately. Equestrianism is still stuck in the dark ages where the vast majority automatically carries whips (even beginners/novices), shoves on metal prodding devices (spurs), often chuck any device or crazy bit in their horses mouth etc. Its not like these things are rare, theyre the norm. To the outside world I can see how dreadful and cruel a lot of it looks...

 

[magicmoments]

So after watching the dressage where of course I supported GB, I did feel uncomfortable watching. It doesnt look terribly pleasant anymore IMO, my OH who has always been in horsey families was horrified and said it was like watching circus animals... I feel animal welfare groups are going to come after dressage pretty soon...

So what can be done? Id like to see normal non-double bridles for a start. I know they used to actually be a requirement from a certain level which seems ridiculous, I dont know if this is still the case. Same with spurs. Why? Surely it would show the horse being well trained better without the need for the double bridle and spurs?

I am absolutely no dressage queen, I event and its always been my nemesis but Im all for minimising stuff like I dont even own a whip (or spurs) anymore. Why are whips allowed in any level dressage? Again, surely its better if you dont carry one and perhaps you should get extra marks. Im not saying its better to be booting your horse in the ribs rather than a little tap with the whip but doesnt that all come down to training again? And why oh why are you marked down for using your voice? I cant stand this rule. Surely from a kindness point of view its far nicer for the horse to get some vocal well dones or encouragement if needed?

I just feel not enough is being done for the best interests of the horse ultimately. Equestrianism is still stuck in the dark ages where the vast majority automatically carries whips (even beginners/novices), shoves on metal prodding devices (spurs), often chuck any device or crazy bit in their horses mouth etc. Its not like these things are rare, theyre the norm. To the outside world I can see how dreadful and cruel a lot of it looks...

I do agree with alot of what you say. It's also the direction I am moving towards. Maybe it would be good to start an alternative dressage sport, which could include bitless, voice, etc.

 

[GreyDot]

I am worried that if they allow voice, it would very quickly turn into women's tennis, which I can no longer watch

 

[shortstuff99]

I think the dressage has improved quite a lot, it used to be a lot worse only 12 years ago. There is still some suspect riding and controversial training being used which does give evidence for animal rights groups. I didn't enjoy the Russians or the Dutch. And I might get hated for this but I don't massively enjoy how Everdale goes. IW is still a bit old school too.

With the increase of riders not riding like that, and their better scores it will pressure the riding to move in that direction too.

The voice rule is back from when it was military as speaking would give away your position.

I'm also not against using a schooling whip as that can be used very classically.

 

[milliepops]

if you're going to use a bit at all, i don't see any additional issue between a single and a double bridle personally, used correctly you can be as light/lighter with the aid because of the more refined action of the curb giving different signals to the horse.

Likewise if you're allowed to use your leg, i don't object to correct use of the spur. or a tap with a schooling whip used to sharpen the horse's attention to the leg.

no one wants to see horses hauled in the mouth or jabbed with the spur but i would say that riding can be bad for the horse even without those tools, it's all down to the skill of the rider and their approach to their horse.

I really don't believe that the kit is the thing that makes or breaks horse welfare tbh.

 

[Skib]

The voice rule is back from when it was military as speaking would give away your position.
.

Thank you for explaining that. I think I will stop using it.

 

[McFluff]

I actually thought it was much nicer viewing this time than last. There (to my novice eyes) appeared to be more harmonious partnerships, working together. There was less of the horrid (in my opinion) lean back strength fests this time. At that level, spur use is a pure aid, and is generally done well. Same with (most) of the double bridles.
It is true though that there is misuse of spur, whip and bit throughout horse sport - all horse sport. I really don't see how that will be removed though. Used correctly, all are valuable aids. A good balanced rider will be far kinder and softer with a double bridle, than a less able rider with a 'mild' bit.
I would love to see a revision of the voice rule (says someone who has lost points for 'good girl/boy'! - which I don't regret, as for me, the longer term partnership is more important than one test). It seems crazy that we can't revise an old rule, surely allowing the voice would help lessen the need for other aids.

 

[scats]

I think the trouble is that non-equestrians, who may have watched the dressage or caught a bit of it/seen pictures, are never going to understand that a spur is actually far kinder (if used correctly) than a leg. Same with a heap of metal in a horses mouth. We know that if used with correct hands, it won’t cause the horse discomfort, but all the public see is a load of metal in a slobbering animals mouth, and a riders hands at the other end of it.
It’s a sport that is always likely to be very misunderstood.

 

[BeckyFlowers]

I have also never understood the no-voice rule, given its one of the rider's natural aids.

 

[TPO]

To my tiny mind the idea of dressage, and training in general, is to be doing as little as possible and aim to refine everything.

Ergo using a double and spurs is to minimise the "effort" exerted by hand and leg so that only minute aids are needed.

I have more of an issue with every day Joe Bloggs wearing spurs when they don't have an independent seat or stable leg. There are countless examples of people gripping up and digging spurs in and swinging lower legs over fences

There have been a gew times that western has been criticised and held up as a bad example of horsemanship on here because of the shanked bits (while also saying riders have no contact ?) and the spurs. However both bits and spurs allow for aids to be refined and less is done. Also they are trained up to, through various stages, wearing a shanked bit much like horses are trained up to wearing a double.

In general I'd like to see Bitless as an option for BD & BE

 

[Somewhat Off The Way]

There is something rather beautiful about non-verbal communication though. I use my voice a lot when riding but when we nail a transition or movement without having to speak it really is a magical feeling.
Maybe that's just me...

 

[Skib]

No , it isnt you.
The word contact is used in a very particular way in riding. One can hold the rein at the buckle and still have communication between ones fingers and the horse's mouth. Mark Rashid pointed out that the most sensitive part of the human is linked to the most sensive part of the horse. My current share has a sad relationship to the reins but I plan to work on it.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

From the bits I have seen, and I didn't watch it all, I actually quite enjoyed some of the displays of a more open frame in some horses this year and I think it was made a bigger deal of than in previous years. Yes, there was some unpleasant viewing which I dont dispute but the person up thread who sad it will always be a mid-understood sports to Joe Bloggs is absolutely correct.

I also have nothing against a double and spurs for the right rider, but I also think it shouldn't be made compulsory, this would be a definite improvement. I am always filled with joy when I see a 5* eventer go in a simple snaffle.

On a not holly related note, there is a man who does the local County Show Level showjumping circuit at about 1.40/1.50 who has the worst lower leg I have ever seen, and I mean literally throws his lower leg back over a jump almost to the point of it being on the horses hip bone, and I often wonder how he rides at this level with that bad of a technique. There is pleasant and unpleasant viewing at every level of sport unfortunately, but I do think moves are being made and I think Charlotte and Carl are pioeering it in a lot of ways.

 

[Kat]

I think dressage has improved massively in recent years, before 2012 I struggled to watch the pure dressage finding much of it uncomfortable (not all). However since 2012 I think there has been a huge shift and the riding has been much softer in general.

I don't see how anyone could have watched the free style this time by the gold medalist Jessica Von Bredow‑Werndl, Charlotte, Carl, the American team, or the Portugese riders and thought it was abusive. It was lovely and light, there was often visible slack in the curb rein and the horses were visibly rewarded with a neck scratch.

I think we have to be pretty careful about allowing in use of the voice, there is a risk that if horses are trained from the voice we add ammunition to the "the horse does all the work" brigade. We need to keep the focus on body control and physical communication. It should of course be about gentle kind training and judges need to keep in mind how what they reward looks to the public.

Whips aren't allowed in championships already, I think we need to allow spurs to allow the subtle communication necessary. It isn't about amplifying the aid, it is about refining it. Think of it like the difference between paint brushes, you use a thin one when you want to paint a detailed work of art you use a tiny thin paint brush, if you want to paint a ceiling you use a big thick one. Spurs are the same, there are lots of aids very close to one another, you can't show the difference with you leg, you need the smaller point of contact of the spur.

Likewise the double bridle is about refining the communication not about giving a stronger aid.

 

[greenbean10]

I don't have as much knowledge of dressage but in showjumping a stick and pair of spurs in the ring will be the least of many horse's worries. It's what goes on behind closed doors that worries me.

 

[Birker2020]

Many moons ago when I was taught to ride we were taught to use natural aids - the hand, legs, voice and seat.

Artificial aids like spurs and a whip are to back up the others.

I think its sad that we can't praise our horses, one of our liveries is constantly praising her dressage horse in training and she goes beautifully for her, I always used to praise my horse verbally too. I'm no dressage diva, I got up to Novice and Elementary on my last horse at unaffiliated level and we did okay, but I'm sure I used to talk to Bailey and was never marked down, how do the judges know anyway when they are in cars or huts as most are at unaffiliated level or is this rule only at a higher level?

Seems such a shame.

 

[ester]

I am worried that if they allow voice, it would very quickly turn into women's tennis, which I can no longer watch

The carriage drivers manage it

 

[oldie48]

I didn't see many of the tests but most of those that I saw were very harmonious as well as correct. I'm another who thinks dressage has improved in the last decade. If one of the differences between really good riders and the rest is the subtlety of the aids (and I think it is) then I'm not sure how a voice aid would contribute to that, surely it would detract from it? TBH as a pretty rubbish rider I have sometimes used a subtle voice aid when out of the hearing of the judge and I'm sure I'm not the only one, a smile easily hides the odd bit of vocal chivvying.When I hear the odd comment about the length or style of spurs it's generally by someone who knows very little about how to use them correctly.

 

[sport horse]

I think that the standard at the top of dressage. I suspest you will find more, possibly unwitting suffering, at the hands of amateurs who cannot even control the movement of their own bodies and thus cause huge discomfort to the horse. A spur used correctly as by the top Olympians is pretty harmless and adds to the range of aids for different movements. However the same spur on the leg of a rider who cannot even keep their leg stilll, let alone control where and when they use the leg, is a whole different matter.

 

[shortstuff99]

I can also guarantee that they are using voice aids you just don't notice

 

[Kat]

Many moons ago when I was taught to ride we were taught to use natural aids - the hand, legs, voice and seat.

Artificial aids like spurs and a whip are to back up the others.

I think its sad that we can't praise our horses, one of our liveries is constantly praising her dressage horse in training and she goes beautifully for her, I always used to praise my horse verbally too.

Seems such a shame.

Dressage riders absolutely do praise their horses in the ring, you see them reach forward and give them a scratch. They also give them a massive fuss after the salute. It is only a few minutes when they can't verbally praise the horse.

The phrase whip and spurs are used to back up the leg is one that is commonly used in textbooks etc but it isn't really true of their use in all circumstances. It probably dates to times when cavalry and hunting formed the basis of teaching riding in the uk rather than referring to their use is higher levels of dressage.

The whip would be used to back up the leg out hacking or when jumping but it can also be used as an extension of the arm, to replace the missing leg when side-saddle, as a learning aid to indicate a specific movement in training, for all kinds of things. It is not permitted in championship dressage so many competitive riders do not routinely ride with one and pick one up only when they are teaching specific movements where a long whip can help the horse understand the movement required.

The spur again would not generally be used to back up a leg aid, more to refine the leg aid when you are talking about their use in dressage, to give a more precise and subtle aid than would be possible without the spur.

 

[ester]

yup plenty of scratches/a rein give at times

 

[coblets]

Also struggle to watch a lot of dressage - the occasional good ride doesn’t make watching the others any easier.

I’d like to see more disciplines take on the Trec approach, where riders can ride in whatever suits their horse with only minor restrictions (to protect the horse’s welfare).

 

[HashRouge]

Dressage riders absolutely do praise their horses in the ring, you see them reach forward and give them a scratch. They also give them a massive fuss after the salute. It is only a few minutes when they can't verbally praise the horse.

The phrase whip and spurs are used to back up the leg is one that is commonly used in textbooks etc but it isn't really true of their use in all circumstances. It probably dates to times when cavalry and hunting formed the basis of teaching riding in the uk rather than referring to their use is higher levels of dressage.

The whip would be used to back up the leg out hacking or when jumping but it can also be used as an extension of the arm, to replace the missing leg when side-saddle, as a learning aid to indicate a specific movement in training, for all kinds of things. It is not permitted in championship dressage so many competitive riders do not routinely ride with one and pick one up only when they are teaching specific movements where a long whip can help the horse understand the movement required.

The spur again would not generally be used to back up a leg aid, more to refine the leg aid when you are talking about their use in dressage, to give a more precise and subtle aid than would be possible without the spur.

Yes, Rodrigo Torres was constantly patting Fogoso

 

[Kat]

Yes, Rodrigo Torres was constantly patting Fogoso

And a little pat/scratch like that is something the horses understand, much nicer than some of the shouting you hear that is supposed to be a reward.

 

[milliepops]

I can also guarantee that they are using voice aids you just don't notice

even with the background music the mics in the arena in tokyo picked up a few of them giving voice aids

Dressage riders absolutely do praise their horses in the ring, you see them reach forward and give them a scratch. They also give them a massive fuss after the salute. It is only a few minutes when they can't verbally praise the horse.

The phrase whip and spurs are used to back up the leg is one that is commonly used in textbooks etc but it isn't really true of their use in all circumstances. It probably dates to times when cavalry and hunting formed the basis of teaching riding in the uk rather than referring to their use is higher levels of dressage.

The whip would be used to back up the leg out hacking or when jumping but it can also be used as an extension of the arm, to replace the missing leg when side-saddle, as a learning aid to indicate a specific movement in training, for all kinds of things. It is not permitted in championship dressage so many competitive riders do not routinely ride with one and pick one up only when they are teaching specific movements where a long whip can help the horse understand the movement required.

The spur again would not generally be used to back up a leg aid, more to refine the leg aid when you are talking about their use in dressage, to give a more precise and subtle aid than would be possible without the spur.

indeed. i find the best "back up the leg" type aid I can give to my horse is to take the legs off before applying a normal leg aid because I've taught mine to go from that in a way that means business!

I definitely agree the spur aid can be utterly different to a general leg aid.
My spurs are of more use to indicate additional engagement (as opposed to go faster) e.g. leg says "extended trot now", spur says "more hindleg please"
or more sideways - leg says "go sideways", spur says "snappier please", or in a different area, "keep the inside shoulder up"
or in collected walk, rein says "collection", spur says "come up under the saddle" where blunt leg would be more likely to make the steps bigger.

i scratch withers a lot. I also chatter away, if I say my horse's name she knows to motor, pronto, because that's how I've used it, fortunately it's one you can utter under your breath.

 

[Kat]

Also struggle to watch a lot of dressage - the occasional good ride doesn’t make watching the others any easier.

I’d like to see more disciplines take on the Trec approach, where riders can ride in whatever suits their horse with only minor restrictions (to protect the horse’s welfare).

It isn't making things any better for the horses in show jumping

The restrictions for the dressage are much safer for the horse. A double bridle isn't harsh. I wouldn't object to allowing a snaffle though.

 

[ester]

I fear that riders using whatever they think 'suits' their horse would take us back quite a long way in terms of welfare. . . Is that not why a lot of the restrictions exist?

 

[milliepops]

Also struggle to watch a lot of dressage - the occasional good ride doesn’t make watching the others any easier.

I’d like to see more disciplines take on the Trec approach, where riders can ride in whatever suits their horse with only minor restrictions (to protect the horse’s welfare).

the occasional good ride? i watched 4 days of dressage this week on Discovery and I'd say there was a *handful* of rides that were not lovely to watch, the general standard has been absolutely rocketing away in recent years in terms of performance and harmony.

 

[Kat]

the occasional good ride? i watched 4 days of dressage this week on Discovery and I'd say there was a *handful* of rides that were not lovely to watch, the general standard has been absolutely rocketing away in recent years in terms of performance and harmony.

This 100% there were far more lovely soft rides than uncomfortable ones.