Dressage Olympic Dressage, will judges be brave?

[shortstuff99]

Very interesting opinion piece on euro dressage today here https://eurodressage.com/2021/07/22/tokyo-tales-shouldnt-dressage-judges-dare-think-outside-box

About the scoring at the Olympics. I think I agree with a lot of what she says. It does seem that bigger names seem to get more favourable scores. What do you think?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I completely think they do. I have seen some bang average (by their standards) tests scored highly compared to lovely - but sometimes less 'extravagant' - tests by the smaller names.

I also think most (sweeping generalisation of course) have lost the art of the piaffe. I haven't seen a proper sit and rhythmical steps piaffe in a while now.

 

[milliepops]

I also think most (sweeping generalisation of course) have lost the art of the piaffe. I haven't seen a proper sit and rhythmical steps piaffe in a while now.

I have I watched a friend's lesson last week and her little horse is an absolute piaffe machine, he is perfection! such a talent for it.

I think it's probably hard to get horses that have the ability to score 10s at the other stuff who can also perform a "classical" silhouette type piaffe. and the other movements add up to a higher score value in total than the piaffes, so a horse with exceptional extensions or piris or half passes or changes can compensate for a less brilliant piaffe, score wise. more so than a horse with a brilliant piaffe but limited scope in the rest of the work.
We all do it, go to a show at a level where we know there is something a bit iffy (not great extensions at novice, starting AM with a dodgy change etc), and I don't think GP is any different.

 

[shortstuff99]

I get that other areas can make up for a bad piaffe, but some riders are getting 9's for bad piaffes or bad extensions etc for which I would not be so generously scored ?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I have I watched a friend's lesson last week and her little horse is an absolute piaffe machine, he is perfection! such a talent for it.

I think it's probably hard to get horses that have the ability to score 10s at the other stuff who can also perform a "classical" silhouette type piaffe. and the other movements add up to a higher score value in total than the piaffes, so a horse with exceptional extensions or piris or half passes or changes can compensate for a less brilliant piaffe, score wise. more so than a horse with a brilliant piaffe but limited scope in the rest of the work.
We all do it, go to a show at a level where we know there is something a bit iffy (not great extensions at novice, starting AM with a dodgy change etc), and I don't think GP is any different.

He sounds fab, I love a good piaffe.

I completely agree with what you're saying, but these awful piaffes are still getting 8's! I just think we are breeding extension machines and moving away from collection and sit in these but flashy legged warmbloods. Give me a more economical horse that has more versatility any day!

 

[ycbm]

I have I watched a friend's lesson last week and her little horse is an absolute piaffe machine, he is perfection! such a talent for it.

I think it's probably hard to get horses that have the ability to score 10s at the other stuff who can also perform a "classical" silhouette type piaffe. and the other movements add up to a higher score value in total than the piaffes, so a horse with exceptional extensions or piris or half passes or changes can compensate for a less brilliant piaffe, score wise. more so than a horse with a brilliant piaffe but limited scope in the rest of the work.
We all do it, go to a show at a level where we know there is something a bit iffy (not great extensions at novice, starting AM with a dodgy change etc), and I don't think GP is any different.

I get that MP but I don't get why completely flawed piaffes are scoring 9 or 10.

 

[milliepops]

don't ask me, I'm not a judge

 

[shortstuff99]

don't ask me, I'm not a judge

When I answered I didn't realise we would all say the same thing, apologies ?.

I enjoy top riders doing really well and just wish the judging would just be a bit more consistent to everyone.

 

[milliepops]

also i don't think it's particularly true to say there is no collection, i think there's a difference between the type of horse that *can* sit in a piaffe and one that can produce the leg moves but its body doesn't allow that... but it can still show great collection in passage, in canter pirouettes, and so on. i don't think i'd go as far as to describe some of the high scoring, non sitting piaffes as awful tbh, i'd be pretty happy to produce them myself if that's what the horse was able to do biomechanically. if it's otherwise correct (not base narrow, not inverting, in correct rhythm etc) then i really would struggle to call it *awful*

 

[shortstuff99]

also i don't think it's particularly true to say there is no collection, i think there's a difference between the type of horse that *can* sit in a piaffe and one that can produce the leg moves but its body doesn't allow that... but it can still show great collection in passage, in canter pirouettes, and so on. i don't think i'd go as far as to describe some of the high scoring, non sitting piaffes as awful tbh, i'd be pretty happy to produce them myself if that's what the horse was able to do biomechanically. if it's otherwise correct (not base narrow, not inverting, in correct rhythm etc) then i really would struggle to call it *awful*

It is quite interesting to look at some of the old dressage masters, as many rode warmbloods and had very correct piaffes. I wonder what has changed in the breeding to make it difficult for current warmbloods to do.

 

[milliepops]

did they ride the piaffe at those points in the GP test though? being able to ride movements in the manner of your choosing is a different kettle of fish to producing the full test. I have only ever seen pics or clips of them doing their own thing.

 

[shortstuff99]

I also don't know if anyone has read Laura Tomlinson's article in H and H today were she has been quite scathing of dressage scoring which is very interesting.

 

[milliepops]

lots of the older WBs were really different horses to what we have now, but not just that the whole way of going for tests has changed - i remember looking back at olympic dressage from decades ago and we wouldn't consider some of those horses to be even on the bit these days.

don't get H&H so haven't seen her article. I think it would be more useful to have input from international judges on these matters rather than just have one sided articles written tbh, we can all speculate on what we think but a view from the other side would be so valuable.

 

[rara007]

Have you got any video examples of the early WBs piaffing? Most the YouTube’s I can find look pretty stiff backed and tail swishy though all the movements!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I don't know how people embed Youtube videos, but I think this about covers what I mean - I'm not saying some of the better piaffe's there are perfect, but the difference is notable.

ETA: Ooooh I somehow managed it, go me!

 

[milliepops]

i really try not to give Dressagehub any views!

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

i really try not to give Dressagehub any views!

I have no idea who they are, I just happened to click on that video and agreed

 

[shortstuff99]

Have you got any video examples of the early WBs piaffing? Most the YouTube’s I can find look pretty stiff backed and tail swishy though all the movements!

 

[shortstuff99]

lots of the older WBs were really different horses to what we have now, but not just that the whole way of going for tests has changed - i remember looking back at olympic dressage from decades ago and we wouldn't consider some of those horses to be even on the bit these days.

don't get H&H so haven't seen her article. I think it would be more useful to have input from international judges on these matters rather than just have one sided articles written tbh, we can all speculate on what we think but a view from the other side would be so valuable.

If you're interested in reading it Pammy talks about it on her Equestrians, time to act page.

 

[milliepops]

I have no idea who they are, I just happened to click on that video and agreed

ah, she's a bit of a toxic person.

 

[TPO]

ah, she's a bit of a toxic person.

In the same way that Covid is a bit like a cold ?

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

i really try not to give Dressagehub any views!

The first part of the video they have taken from blonde dressage on TikTok - I don't know much about these things really but I follow her channel with interest. She also touches on how better known 'names' may be scored more generously than perhaps they ought to be at times, as well as different styles of dressage over the years.

https://www.tiktok.com/@blondedress...r_device=pc&sender_web_id=6987844384403293702

 

[smolmaus]

The first part of the video they have taken from blonde dressage on TikTok - I don't know much about these things really but I follow her channel with interest. She also touches on how better known 'names' may be scored more generously than perhaps they ought to be at times, as well as different styles of dressage over the years.

https://www.tiktok.com/@blondedress...r_device=pc&sender_web_id=6987844384403293702

This is exactly who I thought of when I read the OP but couldn't remember her name! I also don't know an awful lot personally. Been trying to watch more dressage recently to see if I can spot some of the things she talks about.

 

[teapot]

Ground jury list is here: https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...QU_C35_EQUODRES--------------------------.pdf

 

[tristar]

It is quite interesting to look at some of the old dressage masters, as many rode warmbloods and had very correct piaffes. I wonder what has changed in the breeding to make it difficult for current warmbloods to do.

commercial breeding, selection criterea of stallions, breeders who dont ride to feel the balance ratios

 

[tristar]

is that alerich? in a snaffle, sorry lost the specs,

klimke once said he wanted to win, when asked about the adherence, or lack of it, to classical principles in competition dressage

 

[shortstuff99]

is that alerich? in a snaffle, sorry lost the specs,

klimke once said he wanted to win, when asked about the adherence, or lack of it, to classical principles in competition dressage

Yes I think it is Alerich. He may have said that, but he did still know how to do a more correct piaffe then you see now. Ingrid also does a lovely piaffe

 

[YorkshireLady]

and interestingly at the time Wily Trout was considered great in Piaffe by Bartle's contemporaries

I love Alf in Piaffe and Passage at his best ( which for me was GP Special in Kentucky) as a WB horse and in modern era. However I am sure there are some that do not, so I guess judges potentially will always have some variation.

I too though Laura column in H and H was interesting and though Eurodressage prob was on the back of that!

 

[milliepops]

so...bumping this after the first 2 days...
let's leave Isabell's piaffes to one side as I think we're all scratching our heads over that one

I think for the most part they judged what they saw....

 

[splashgirl45]

i saw a demo with reihner klimke on ahlerich , spelt wrong i think, at wembley when i was very young and it stuck with me.. although he is training in that video that is the sort of piaffe that i would expect to see in comps today...thanks for that, very interesting to see him after all this time...