FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Thanks. The thing is she is always going to be built down hill as she is a breed which is built down hill. She is young and very green. Can a horse that is built down hill ever look anything other than on the forehand?
"On the forehand"
- Thread starter FfionWinnie
- Start date
Thanks. The thing is she is always going to be built down hill as she is a breed which is built down hill. She is young and very green. Can a horse that is built down hill ever look anything other than on the forehand?
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Yes but that was about a month ago and we have had some big improvements since then. Still a long way to go, I realise that.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Very often when a horse is on the forehand, the rider's position is encouraging that, hands turned flat, elbows straight and pushing down towards the shoulder, with the rider tipped forward and the shoulders rounded. The first thing to do to get the horse off the forehand, is for the rider to correct their position - not always easy, as it can be a vicious circle with the horse pulling the rider foreward but even something as 'minor' as the rider looking down can stop the horse working properly from behind. Of course, the development of the correct muscles so that the horse can consistently work from behind takes time but a simple position adjustment can give a fleeting moment, so that the rider knows what to aim for.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
Ah yes, she's a quarter horse, isn't she? I don't think they are suitable for dressage etc, but if you watch the reiners, you can see they are more than capable of bringing their weight back onto their hocks. I have no experience of riding them myself though and so I really don't know how well they can go in dressage type schooling.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
It can certainly be improved. My mare is a heavily built Draft horse, who prior to coming to me had been ridden mainly by novices. She was reluctant to show any impulsion and leaned heavily on my hands when given the chance, pulling herself along on the forehand. With correct riding she is developing the muscles to work from behind and her impulsion is increasing. She is not in the first flush of youth, she was very overweight when she arrived here, her incorrect musculature has been developed over the years and her natural conformation does not lend itself to dressage BUT she has a powerful back-end and given time she is becoming more off the forehand - we can see that as we watch her moving around the field.
In fairness to her I must add that she was bought for her bombproof quality, which is phenomenal, not her dressage ability! She is easier to ride now though and seems to enjoy her work more.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I am being position worked on, by a classical dressage trainer, on a weekly basis 
Scarlett
Well-Known Member
Yes, absolutely! But that is achieved through good, consistant schooling and building the horse up correctly over a long period, realistically it takes a year to build a horse up and get it working correctly, there are no quick fixes.
Theres loads of things you can do to help her now, pole work, lunging, hacking, hillwork, anything to encourage her to go forward. She is only young though, yes? Don't worry about where her head is, let he stick her nose out but keep her straight and going forward. The rest will come with time and strength.
There are loads of videos and books out there and many fantastic instructors. Educate yourself and you'll be able to educate your horse.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Yes she is a Paint Horse which is essentially the same thing. I didn't buy her as a dressage horse of course, but I want to ride her as well as possible and I'd like to do some dressage tests just for the experience.
I suppose I just wondered if I do that, if it will be continually disheartening being told she needs to do something which could be a physical impossibility for her, even if Carl Hester himself was riding her
There is plenty of improving to do with both of us and we live on a hill so I will just see how we go I suppose
Thanks for all the replies. I have a better idea now.
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
Yes, absolutely! But that is achieved through good, consistant schooling and building the horse up correctly over a long period, realistically it takes a year to build a horse up and get it working correctly, there are no quick fixes.
Theres loads of things you can do to help her now, pole work, lunging, hacking, hillwork, anything to encourage her to go forward. She is only young though, yes? Don't worry about where her head is, let he stick her nose out but keep her straight and going forward. The rest will come with time and strength.
There are loads of videos and books out there and many fantastic instructors. Educate yourself and you'll be able to educate your horse.
Thanks I had no idea of the time frame you would expect so that is interesting. She had a lot of issues when I got her so I think we are only now properly starting really although I have been riding her for 4 months. She is 4. I don't try to do anything with her head but she has started offering to soften herself.
I mainly hack as the fields are so wet and no school, but I hire an indoor for a lesson once a week too.
HufflyPuffly
Well-Known Member
Hi I would say my horse is naturally built downhill, I bought her as a 12 year old that hadn't been ridden correctly from behind for a number of years.
Hopefully this will be a picture of her showing off her natural downhill tendencies,
We are learning together how to go forwards truely from behind, and we are getting there slowly. This should be her from 2/3 years ago, (please excuse my riding!):
And this is from the end of last year, I think she looks the best she ever has I'm very proud of how far we've come as a partnership. She's 19 in these next pictures and has never looked better there is always the ability to change a horses way of going no matter what age!:
http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...12-saturday/daytime-classes/pages/CAB 457.htm
And just because she's so pretty:
http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...aturday/evening-performance/pages/VUX 040.htm
So I hope those pictures work and they help a bit of demonstration of how a horse that is built downhill can work in a better frame, I am well aware we aren't perfect and wont be the next dressage superstars
but I think she is starting to work more uphill. I haven't got any pictures to hand that show her working really downhill sorry 
.
Sorry if the pictures are huge this is my first attempt at posting.
Alex x
Hopefully this will be a picture of her showing off her natural downhill tendencies
,
We are learning together how to go forwards truely from behind, and we are getting there slowly. This should be her from 2/3 years ago, (please excuse my riding!):
And this is from the end of last year, I think she looks the best she ever has I'm very proud of how far we've come as a partnership. She's 19 in these next pictures and has never looked better there is always the ability to change a horses way of going no matter what age!:
http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...12-saturday/daytime-classes/pages/CAB 457.htm
And just because she's so pretty
:http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...aturday/evening-performance/pages/VUX 040.htm
So I hope those pictures work and they help a bit of demonstration of how a horse that is built downhill can work in a better frame, I am well aware we aren't perfect and wont be the next dressage superstars
but I think she is starting to work more uphill. I haven't got any pictures to hand that show her working really downhill sorry .Sorry if the pictures are huge this is my first attempt at posting.
Alex x
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
One tip is 'don't worry about the forehand or head, instead conentrate on getting her to really step under herself, so that she is tracking up in all paces. This will take a long time to achieve, just as if you started a gym programme, it would take you months to change your body shape, and of course, you wouldn't be able to change the basic shape, just the muscles.I am being position worked on, by a classical dressage trainer, on a weekly basis
Sarah1
Well-Known Member
I think this is a really good picture showing a horse on his forehand
You can see his back end isn't underneath him & although he's not heavy in the hand at all, look at the angle of his fetlock & how much pressure/weight there is through his front legs. He's built very front heavy & it's incredibly difficult for a small rider like me to sit him more on his bottom!
This picture shows an improvement - you can see his back is up so his back legs can go underneath his body to propel him forwards though we're by no means 'there' and totally working from behind...
I would describe the feeling of them being on the forehand more like riding downhill & feeling realy tipped forwards rather than being heavy in the hand but that's just the way my boy is others will be very heavy too.
Don't know if that helps at all?
Incidentally Bailey always tracks up & very often over tracks but he's still front heavy...
You can see his back end isn't underneath him & although he's not heavy in the hand at all, look at the angle of his fetlock & how much pressure/weight there is through his front legs. He's built very front heavy & it's incredibly difficult for a small rider like me to sit him more on his bottom!
This picture shows an improvement - you can see his back is up so his back legs can go underneath his body to propel him forwards though we're by no means 'there' and totally working from behind...
I would describe the feeling of them being on the forehand more like riding downhill & feeling realy tipped forwards rather than being heavy in the hand but that's just the way my boy is others will be very heavy too.
Don't know if that helps at all?
Incidentally Bailey always tracks up & very often over tracks but he's still front heavy...
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PingPongPony
Well-Known Member
just wanted to post a differen't video of the same breed but showing the difference so that it's not just the breed that has effect on being in the forehand
Here's a fjord not on the forehand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD-_WqVy-bA
now you can compare it to the other fjord i posted and see the difference
Here's a fjord not on the forehand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD-_WqVy-bA
now you can compare it to the other fjord i posted and see the difference
ozpoz
Well-Known Member
I preferred the first fjord pony!
It was going forward freely and in rhythm, and it is more difficult for a large headed animal to carry itself. Given time, I think this pony is well on the way to self carriage.
The second one is forced and over bent imo.
It was going forward freely and in rhythm, and it is more difficult for a large headed animal to carry itself. Given time, I think this pony is well on the way to self carriage.
The second one is forced and over bent imo.
PonyIAmNotFood
Well-Known Member
Agree. The half steps (I know they were only just being taught so aren't going to be perfectly correct) looked too springy behind to me and though the hind was under, a lot seemed to be dumped on the front. I may be very wrong though, and am open to correction, just the impression I got from the vid.
noobs31
Well-Known Member
I disagree I'm afraid. Rider is clearly very tight in the knee (you can see the clamping and the giveaway heel creeping up). The mare is overbent and will be entirely unable to lift her shoulder for the rider whilst being restricted in this way.She looks to be going really nicely here, but ebs is still leaning like a mother xx,way too much tension in her frame, she will be heavy on the hand... Strain on the wrists and feeling like she is stepping downhill. A good little rider but a horse experienced at evading if you didn't know how to work her.
noobs31
Well-Known Member
This is a very good example. Agree this horse will find it harder. But most definitely improving!I think this is a really good picture showing a horse on his forehand
You can see his back end isn't underneath him & although he's not heavy in the hand at all, look at the angle of his fetlock & how much pressure/weight there is through his front legs. He's built very front heavy & it's incredibly difficult for a small rider like me to sit him more on his bottom!
This picture shows an improvement - you can see his back is up so his back legs can go underneath his body to propel him forwards though we're by no means 'there' and totally working from behind...
I would describe the feeling of them being on the forehand more like riding downhill & feeling realy tipped forwards rather than being heavy in the hand but that's just the way my boy is others will be very heavy too.
Don't know if that helps at all?
Incidentally Bailey always tracks up & very often over tracks but he's still front heavy...
Natch
Well-Known Member
Sorry for a quick post that hasn't read all the previous ones, but ...
The best way I can think of to describe it's looks and feel is that when you are on perfectly level ground, a horse on the forehand looks and feels like they are going downhill, and a horse using itself properly feels and looks slightly uphill.
On the forehand is easier for a horse with a rider because the rider is sat over the front end of the horse, so the weight of the rider encourages a horse to use its front legs more than its back legs, and its centre of balance is forwards. Doesn't hell that horses' heads and necks and grazing means that they are almost all built forehand heavy in the first place
The reason we want them to shift their centre of balance back and to use their hindlegs as the power (in a car this would be rear wheel drive rather than front wheel drive) is because it is a more secure body posture, using core strength and muscle to take the weight of the rider, rather than hanging on the ligaments and various joints including the spine which can cause unnatural wear and injury, and is a self-perpetuating cycle of progressive weakness. Carrying a rider properly is harder work for the horse in training, and building up the horse's strength to be able to carry a rider properly for extended periods of time takes time and a certain amount of skill.
McGreevy has written some brilliant and readabld material on the subject, have a google (particularly google scholar) for equitation science. McGregor and Warren are also good authors to watch out for.
The best way I can think of to describe it's looks and feel is that when you are on perfectly level ground, a horse on the forehand looks and feels like they are going downhill, and a horse using itself properly feels and looks slightly uphill.
On the forehand is easier for a horse with a rider because the rider is sat over the front end of the horse, so the weight of the rider encourages a horse to use its front legs more than its back legs, and its centre of balance is forwards. Doesn't hell that horses' heads and necks and grazing means that they are almost all built forehand heavy in the first place
The reason we want them to shift their centre of balance back and to use their hindlegs as the power (in a car this would be rear wheel drive rather than front wheel drive) is because it is a more secure body posture, using core strength and muscle to take the weight of the rider, rather than hanging on the ligaments and various joints including the spine which can cause unnatural wear and injury, and is a self-perpetuating cycle of progressive weakness. Carrying a rider properly is harder work for the horse in training, and building up the horse's strength to be able to carry a rider properly for extended periods of time takes time and a certain amount of skill.
McGreevy has written some brilliant and readabld material on the subject, have a google (particularly google scholar) for equitation science. McGregor and Warren are also good authors to watch out for.
Natch
Well-Known Member
*help not hell, and *readable, not readabld
TPO
Fly paper for freaks 🍀
QR- you've already had some excellent advice and it sounds like you are on the right tracks.
Just wanted to say that QHs CAN do dressage! The name of the horse escapes me just now but there was one in the UK that done really quite well. I'm pretty sure it's in this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quarter-Hor...r_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357315410&sr=1-13 book
Also there seems to be a new sport starting; Western Dressage. Would be worth having youtube of that you find QH/Paint horses doing "traditional" dressage albeit in their western tack.
Enjoy!
Just wanted to say that QHs CAN do dressage! The name of the horse escapes me just now but there was one in the UK that done really quite well. I'm pretty sure it's in this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quarter-Hor...r_1_13?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1357315410&sr=1-13 book
Also there seems to be a new sport starting; Western Dressage. Would be worth having youtube of that you find QH/Paint horses doing "traditional" dressage albeit in their western tack.
Enjoy!
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
Quarter horses (paints) are never built uphill but they do generally work lightly upfront once they're mature. That's how they're able to do spins and all the other movements we ask of them. If you watch cutting horses working cattle you'll see they work very much from the rear end which propels them forward. Over here it isn't that common to see quarter horses in dressage classes, they are more usually seen in hunter classes if ridden english. Rein contact is minimal whether they are ridden english or western and you almost never see a quarter horse ridden in a tight contact, it's always loose and light. I haven't seen a side on picture of your horse for a while but my recollection is she is quite long backed for a quarter horse? Mostly they are short coupled which makes it easier for them get their hind end working underneath them.
sms
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hijack thread OP but this is all ringing very true with my new boy and I wondered whether any one could give me some basic pointers on how to improve things whilst hacking? My new boy is a heavyweight cob who is doing a fab job as being the bombproof hack I bought him for but I'm after reading this thread I realise how on the forehand he is. Fast banging trot with head in the air, tripping up quite a lot and sliding on front feet and leaning totally on my hands when he gets tired.
Both he and I are very green on the schooling aspect and do not have access to a ménage but today whilst hacking I tried walk trot stop rein back transitions and he was really listening but I have no idea what else I should be doing. On other horses I have felt that lightness when their back ends come up and under them but both me and the new boy have no idea how to achieve it together! Would really like to improve our way of going firstly as he can be uncomfortable and secondly I worry he is going to fall on his nose!
Both he and I are very green on the schooling aspect and do not have access to a ménage but today whilst hacking I tried walk trot stop rein back transitions and he was really listening but I have no idea what else I should be doing. On other horses I have felt that lightness when their back ends come up and under them but both me and the new boy have no idea how to achieve it together! Would really like to improve our way of going firstly as he can be uncomfortable and secondly I worry he is going to fall on his nose!