One step forward and two steps back... feeling Meh!

[Lippyx]

I just feel the need to release some "meh" feelings. Please, no nasty comments or remarks....

I am really beginning to seriously think about whether Toby is right for me (or, if I am right for him)

Over winter, its been on and off with his schooling, mostly due to the weather being so wet. Then I had issues with my saddle, and it was decided it wasn't right for him, and to sell it and get a basic Wintec type saddle. During the period of having no saddle, we concentrated on our groundwork, and his lunging has improved ten fold, so much calmer, and relaxed and taking it all in his stride.

My instructor had said she thought he had been started and sold all too quickly, as he does tend to tense up, and worry, so with this in mind, I thought we would take it all back to the beginning and take is slow. Got the new saddle fitted, and lunged him with that on, until he wasn't worrying about it flapping about etc., and then slowly introduced a rider.

We have got to the stage of just gently walking and trotting around the arena, asking for simply changes of rein and transitions, nothing too complex, and he was doing really well, even relaxing through his head and neck and coming into a natural outline. I felt more comfortable in the saddle, and finally thought we could start our ridden career properly.

Or not... When I rode him last Friday, after a few walks and trots, we had a walk on a long rein. I then gathered the reins, and went to go into trot, but Toby didn't want to. He planted his feet and kept throwing his head up and pulling faces. He had been charging around the field earlier, so thought maybe he was tired, so dismounted and walked back to the yard. As soon as I tied him up, he went for a wee... So thought maybe that was the issue, he was bursting for a wee!!!

I then decided I would join a lesson on Tuesday, and the same thing, he would not go into trot without me kicking and growling at him, but once in trot, he was OK, a little behind the leg, but no head throwing etc. This continued throughout the lesson, until my friend leant me her schooling whip... I barely flicked him, and we had impulsion!! So put it down to baby tantrums.

Finally, my friend rode him last night, as I was unable to get to the yard. She said she took him in the indoor school, and went to get on him from the normal mounting block, and she said no sooner had she put her foot in the stirrup, he shot sideways and threw in a few small bucks. He was then tense and unhappy, although she said he did do a bit of good work.


I am now not wanting to ride him... I have come off a few times already (silly spooks and loss of balance) and my confidence is rapidly fading (again!) Although he was cheeky when I rode him last, as soon as I told him what's what, he was totally different and I came out grinning!! Now I am thinking maybe the "tantrums" weren't tantrums and they were his way of saying something is not right?

He has the back lady due next week, and I am going to call the saddle fitter again, to see if the saddle needs another tweak, I think it looks too low across the withers?
He just isn't the sort to nap like this, yeah we have had tantrums, but not like this??

I feel a little lost, its worrying me and its distressing... I just want to get on my horse and not keep thinking "what if"

Sorry for long essay.... thank you for reading

 

[Wheels]

Try not to get too disheartened, how old is this horse? How long has he been backed?

I had similar responses when I changed saddles. The saddle looked to fit well, master saddler very happy with the fit, horse hated it. Tried a different saddle and immediately improved.

Could your saddle be moving and / or be out of balance?

 

[CBAnglo]

Is this a basic wintec e.g. The 500? What breed is he and what is his back conformation? Also when you say "back lady" what go you mean exactly? Is this someone qualified like a Chiro or is this someone who gives massage?

It doesn't sound as though he is happy but difficult to tell without seeing the horse. Has your instructor ridden him what does she think? I would be wary of having too many different people riding him if you are trying to get him back to basics and reacting a certain way. He may be getting confusing aids and so it is not so much that he is being naughty rather he is confused?

Eta: one step forwards and two steps back is normal especially with youngsters. Try not to get too disheartened it's the ability to pick yourself up and keep plugging away which will be rewarded. I am just about to get on one of mine that has been broken so many times in the 8 years that I have had him that I can't even remember the number of times he has been on boxrest. We shall be on walk work for the 6th time since he had his KS operation 2 yrs ago. He persists on getting kicked, getting abscesses, colic, overreaching ... I think he is trying to tell me something!

 

[Lippyx]

Is this a basic wintec e.g. The 500? What breed is he and what is his back conformation? Also when you say "back lady" what go you mean exactly? Is this someone qualified like a Chiro or is this someone who gives massage?

It doesn't sound as though he is happy but difficult to tell without seeing the horse. Has your instructor ridden him what does she think? I would be wary of having too many different people riding him if you are trying to get him back to basics and reacting a certain way. He may be getting confusing aids and so it is not so much that he is being naughty rather he is confused?

Well, the friend who rode him last night, has ridden him before, and is a good rider, so don't think that's an issue. The saddle I had was a Kent & Masters GP, but it was too big and bulky (he is not a chunky cob by any means) also the K&M saddle started making him bridle lame, even when my instructor rode him, he would be hopping at the front. So saddle fitter (a new one) recommended a Wintec... I got a Wintec 500 Dressage saddle. He fitted it, and said it looked tons better, which it did, and to ride in felt amazing, and Toby was much freer in his shoulder movements. Saddle fitter did say to watch it doesn't slip forwards, and I haven't noticed that it is, as in I don't suddenly feel like I am tipping forwards, or his hair under the saddle isn't brushed the wrong way etc. I am calling the fitter today.

Toby is rising 5, and although cheeky, I wouldn't say he was the sort to do what he has, without a reason.
Back Lady is a McTimoney one. Tony is an Appaloosa x Trotter according to his passport, but isn't fine really. I would say his is like a lighter welsh type, not very wide in his barrel, but has wide shoulders and average withers. Not flat backed at all. He is quite weak at the back end, and very much on the forehand at the minute as he is very bum high.

 

[ester]

Or not... When I rode him last Friday, after a few walks and trots, we had a walk on a long rein. I then gathered the reins, and went to go into trot, but Toby didn't want to. He planted his feet and kept throwing his head up and pulling faces. He had been charging around the field earlier, so thought maybe he was tired, so dismounted and walked back to the yard. As soon as I tied him up, he went for a wee... So thought maybe that was the issue, he was bursting for a wee!!!

I then decided I would join a lesson on Tuesday, and the same thing, he would not go into trot without me kicking and growling at him, but once in trot, he was OK, a little behind the leg, but no head throwing etc. This continued throughout the lesson, until my friend leant me her schooling whip... I barely flicked him, and we had impulsion!! So put it down to baby tantrums.

I think most would say it isn't unusual for very compliant 4 yo to start being a bit more trying as 5yo
Even if he was tired I would absolutely not have finished there, even if it was just once round the arena if I asked him to trot we would have stayed there until we trotted - he had been doing it earlier so no excuse IMO and I'd worry he has now learnt if he says no you bring him in.
Re. the last bit do you not usually ride him with a schooling whip? Much better to have one to back up your leg aid when you need to.

 

[EllieBeast]

Ive been through all of the above with my rising 5yo mare. All just baby moments that need working through, dont lose heart!! Give yourselves time and dont get too bogged down with the school work. Make sure you get plenty of hacking time in, I tend to keep my schooling sessions to about 20 mons (30 if a lesson) and like to take her out for a leg stretch before or after to let her chill. Its just baby horses, bl00dy frustrating but soooo rewarding when it goes right!

 

[Bernster]

Lots of things going on there and I feel your pain in being disappointed and worried about your confidence. Sounds like he's young, fairly new to you, had saddle issues, needs to build up muscle and strength etc. but possibly also could be uncomfortable. Obv the usual checks are the first port of call, and maybe a vet check over? I'd speak to your instructor as you can't really diagnose this stuff online.

But I mainly wanted to say, about the only predictable thing with horses is they are unpredictable. We have so many ups and downs with people on our yard, it's def just something to work through with the right support and help, and ruling out obvious pain issues. Then it's a case of cracking on with schooling and fitness. But if you don't feel capable/ready/have the brain space, then maybe you do need to have a good think about what's best for both of you. I've def been there, it's not fun but you'll find a way I'm sure.

Good luck and try not to feel too down, get the checks done, get some advice, have a plan and go from there. Maybe give yourself a timeframe to work to, expect some downs along the way, and then see what you think?

 

[Lippyx]

I think most would say it isn't unusual for very compliant 4 yo to start being a bit more trying as 5yo
Even if he was tired I would absolutely not have finished there, even if it was just once round the arena if I asked him to trot we would have stayed there until we trotted - he had been doing it earlier so no excuse IMO and I'd worry he has now learnt if he says no you bring him in.
Re. the last bit do you not usually ride him with a schooling whip? Much better to have one to back up your leg aid when you need to.

I totally agree with you, and I am ashamed that I did leave it there, as normally I wouldn't. I don't normally carry a whip, when I first got him, he would worry about it, and would be constantly watching it from the corner of his eye, rather than looking where he was going, as it were. He was the same with the lunge whip too, although he now accepts that, and knows it stays low if he move forwards, but will move if he gets lazy or ignores me.

I now plan to ride with one a whip, as like I say, when I borrowed one in my lesson, he suddenly changed from a typical lazy RS pony to the ol' Toby with the flashy trot.

I know babies try it on, and that's what we thought he was doing in my lesson, when he was napping, but I thought it was a little extreme for the bucking when getting on, hence why I am thinking its a pain/discomfort thing?

 

[Lippyx]

Ive been through all of the above with my rising 5yo mare. All just baby moments that need working through, dont lose heart!! Give yourselves time and dont get too bogged down with the school work. Make sure you get plenty of hacking time in, I tend to keep my schooling sessions to about 20 mons (30 if a lesson) and like to take her out for a leg stretch before or after to let her chill. Its just baby horses, bl00dy frustrating but soooo rewarding when it goes right!

I agree. The most I do with him is 20 mins, unless I am having a lesson, then its 30 mins.

My instructor has been great, and has suggested getting the back checked and getting the saddler out just to check if the saddle needs a slight adjustment, and then taking it from there.

 

[soulfull]

I'm a little confused. At the start of your post you say you wonder if you two are suited to each other. Then you keep finding reasons why he may have done these things

Been there done that and got the broken bones to prove it!

I had an 8yr old WB that first didn't like the fact a saddle was tried with no cloth so presses the eject button
Then got ulcers so pressed the eject button
Inbetween had the occasional good ride, but was hard work

He had the best if everything fitted by the best etc
Then he pressed the eject button for no reason not just with me but with a pro too

I decided I didn't want a horse that would automatically press the eject button when he felt like it or when a minor problem occurred
There are plenty of horse out there that don't react like that

So sold him to another pro who didn't care what he did

I now have a welsh cob mare who is mostly a darling. Her only fault is she gets really silly in the show ring. Only had her a few months but she is great fun

I would never ever again keep working in a horse that made me that nervous in a school. Otherwise it will be years before you are confident to have any fun on him

 

[ester]

I'm not sure I would read too much into the bucking instance - he shot sideways for whatever reason = unbalanced friend= bucking. I'd maybe get him checked out but continue to work him with a schooling whip and see how he goes. Relationships do go up and down with them and as I said before they do make you worry quite a bit at times (even 9 odd years down the line )

 

[VioletStripe]

Are you able to hack out with him? When mine was about that age I tended to do 'schooling' while out hacking, either by ourselves or with a friend, and then transfer across to the school. I found that too much school work would send his mind a bit backwards. I would also get the usual checks done of teeth, saddle and back. Hope it all gets sorted.

 

[Marydoll]

Please dont take this the wrong way, and im not saying youre a bad or unskilled rider but some people just dont have the skills to bring on a youngster, they can be really tricky, text book angels one day, or throw all sorts of stuff at you the next and tbh they need ridden or worked through these episodes correctly and what's right for one, might not work on the other, sometimes the ability to read the horses needs to get them through sticky episodes it isnt always there in the rider. Have you thought of sending him off to a professional for a few weeks work, it might help him get the right mind set for further work.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

This is HHO at its best with some great and insightful posts .

 

[ester]

Please dont take this the wrong way, and im not saying youre a bad or unskilled rider but some people just dont have the skills to bring on a youngster, they can be really tricky, text book angels one day, or throw all sorts of stuff at you the next and tbh they need ridden or worked through these episodes correctly and what's right for one, might not work on the other, sometimes the ability to read the horses needs to get them through sticky episodes it isnt always there in the rider. Have you thought of sending him off to a professional for a few weeks work, it might help him get the right mind set for further work.

This is a good point, I think it is knowing when to push them and when not to too, we should never have bought mum's mare as a 4/5yo although she is here 10 years later as we just weren't able to do this quite right.

 

[*hic*]

Maybe I missed it but I saw no mention of anything other than schooling, work, lessons, arena and I suspect that will have a lot to do with it. He's bored and fed up, he doesn't get any fun. Can you arrange to take him out for hacks where you don't get tense and try to work on him, you just get out, have a nice swingy walk, get him pulled forward into a nice loose trot by another horse and react to any jitters, jiffles, mini-spooks or anything else with a cheery "Get on with it you nana"? It will build your and his confidence greatly and then, when he says "Oh I don't think I want to do boring work" back in the arena you can tell him off in your cheery manner, as you do when out hacking and he will gain confidence from that and get on with it - and as soon as he complies you can then take him out of the arena and for a bit of a wander about to take his mind off being bored and fed up.

 

[Doormouse]

Please dont take this the wrong way, and im not saying youre a bad or unskilled rider but some people just dont have the skills to bring on a youngster, they can be really tricky, text book angels one day, or throw all sorts of stuff at you the next and tbh they need ridden or worked through these episodes correctly and what's right for one, might not work on the other, sometimes the ability to read the horses needs to get them through sticky episodes it isnt always there in the rider. Have you thought of sending him off to a professional for a few weeks work, it might help him get the right mind set for further work.

I agree with this. It is very hard to produce youngsters and they need their rider to be confident enough for them as well because often when they are naughty or difficult it is because they are unsure. I have just persuaded one of my liveries to send their youngster away for a few weeks to a professional and it is the best thing they have ever done. The horse is now back and they are loving her, riding everyday, doing all sorts of things, completely different to before when she was often getting off and bringing her in from the school because she was being a bit sharp.

 

[Highlands]

Hack, hack and hack. My babies rarely do school work till they are grown up. He's young, unfit and his muscles are building. Hack him, turn away then hack again. School when winter comes.

 

[Lippyx]

Please dont take this the wrong way, and im not saying youre a bad or unskilled rider but some people just dont have the skills to bring on a youngster, they can be really tricky, text book angels one day, or throw all sorts of stuff at you the next and tbh they need ridden or worked through these episodes correctly and what's right for one, might not work on the other, sometimes the ability to read the horses needs to get them through sticky episodes it isnt always there in the rider. Have you thought of sending him off to a professional for a few weeks work, it might help him get the right mind set for further work.

This is what I am thinking. My instructor says I am more than capable, and over the years have brought on quite a few youngsters. I have thought about sending him to a pro, but I don't think I could afford that cost (I think I would still have to pay for my livery at the yard, as well as the schooling livery!!) I was hoping to ask my instructor if she would school him for payment, but she already has 2 babies she is schooling, plus her own family life, so feel bad asking.

 

[Lippyx]

I would love to hack, but there is never anyone to hack out with, they all ride during the day, and I don't get there until the evening. Plus most of them have spooky types, who I don't think would be a good role model for him.
I worry he would blind-bolt with me whilst hacking too, no reason behind it, just a fear I have!!

I took him over to the bridle paths over Christmas with my instructor on her horse, and it was great fun, met a few scary things, but we survived. I would do it again, but a recent incident involving my instructor her horse and a very arrogant farmer and tractor has put me off going over there!!

I think I just need to admit I am not cut out for this anymore ...

 

[ester]

What are you doing hacking wise OP and how is he then?

sorry just seen the updates - he needs to get out and hack IMO. Fwiw if you think this is more than just a blip and that something with a little more experience and education would suit you better there is no harm in admitting that and buying something older - I couldn't have a youngster myself!

 

[Lippyx]

What are you doing hacking wise OP and how is he then?

sorry just seen the updates - he needs to get out and hack IMO. Fwiw if you think this is more than just a blip and that something with a little more experience and education would suit you better there is no harm in admitting that and buying something older - I couldn't have a youngster myself!

I know, he does. I am thinking about sending him away for schooling/hacking. Get him happy and confident in his work. I don't want to sell him, he is such a lovely boy

 

[Bobbly]

This post OP, sounds just like me and mine just now, broken in September and started lessons a few weeks ago, lots of stretching down and going forward, all looking good. Then she's been a cow, ok after a fashion in walk, trot is hollow, rushed and we have no left bend feeling at all, very wooden that side. Cue saddle fitter twice now. adjustments made and Mc Timoney lady, some tension behind right side of saddle and over pelvis, not unsound or unlevel. Is it me or her? I just don't know but she's not right. The promise that she was showing has gone to pot and I'm so frustrated!!! A change of saddle maybe.....?

 

[STRIKER]

try not to think "what if", i find negative thoughts like this do pass on to the horse, we really do have a close relationship with them, try to be positive and feel happy and look forward to doing what you want with him and he will also pick up on your vibes. his moving from the mounting block could be because he has felt the fear in you and they have deep memories so even the next person getting on he would immediately react as he has been accustomed to,do try to take some remedy drops before riding they work and see if there is any improvement then you will know it is you.

 

[Annagain]

Can you take a few days off - or a half day once or twice a week for the next few weeks to get him out hacking with others from your yard, once he's a bit more confident doing that you could maybe go out on your own after work?
I know you said they're not quiet types but I'm sure if you asked their owners to take it steady they would do their best.

 

[Ceriann]

My mare is almost exactly like this without the bucking. She got v difficult to go forward in the school, lots of head tossing and evading and tiny tiny bucking hops (nothing serious or anything to make you nervous). I've given her a complete schooling break for the last couple of weeks and have just hacked her - she's forward and happy and comes to the gate now when I call. We'll re-intro schooling in a week or so but keep it short. It's not just my mare that is having more fun either - I now look forward to riding her. She's 5.

 

[Ceriann]

My mare is almost exactly like this without the bucking. She got v difficult to go forward in the school, lots of head tossing and evading and tiny tiny bucking hops (nothing serious or anything to make you nervous). I've given her a complete schooling break for the last couple of weeks and have just hacked her - she's forward and happy and comes to the gate now when I call. We'll re-intro schooling in a week or so but keep it short. It's not just my mare that is having more fun either - I now look forward to riding her. She's 5.

Sorry just saw your post re hacking - do you have anyone who can walk with you and/or have you considered walking him in hand on a route, seeing how he gets used to it and then starting to hop on board for short sessions? I've done all this with mine and it all helps to create a trust and bond between you. Mine looked at everything on her hack today but a rub gets her through it - I'll be honest I like hacking on my own but it's taken time with my youngster and I'm still in my BP and using my rstor.

 

[Lippyx]

This post OP, sounds just like me and mine just now, broken in September and started lessons a few weeks ago, lots of stretching down and going forward, all looking good. Then she's been a cow, ok after a fashion in walk, trot is hollow, rushed and we have no left bend feeling at all, very wooden that side. Cue saddle fitter twice now. adjustments made and Mc Timoney lady, some tension behind right side of saddle and over pelvis, not unsound or unlevel. Is it me or her? I just don't know but she's not right. The promise that she was showing has gone to pot and I'm so frustrated!!! A change of saddle maybe.....?

Totally!!!! All was going well, then the weather slowed us down. Then the saddle started to make him feel uncomfortable, hence new synthetic saddle. McTimoney lady coming next week, waiting for saddle fitter to call back. I might put a thicker pad underneath the saddle (I have a half sheep skin pad) just to spread the weight across his back more.

He will be lightly lunged over the weekend (friend is looking after him, as I am away) and spoken to my instructor, who is going to ride him in my presence and then let me sit on him after, just so she can prove he can do it!! She has given me a slap, and told me to stop putting pressure on myself and just to let it all happen.

I just spent some quality time with him this evening, had a lovely groom and pamper session, whilst having a chat and I feel a lot calmer!!!

Note to self.... don't sit at work and worry about it!!!

 

[Lippyx]

try not to think "what if", i find negative thoughts like this do pass on to the horse, we really do have a close relationship with them, try to be positive and feel happy and look forward to doing what you want with him and he will also pick up on your vibes. his moving from the mounting block could be because he has felt the fear in you and they have deep memories so even the next person getting on he would immediately react as he has been accustomed to,do try to take some remedy drops before riding they work and see if there is any improvement then you will know it is you.

I actually have some of those drops, and plan to start taking them each time I ride, just to help me calm down!!

 

[Lippyx]

Can you take a few days off - or a half day once or twice a week for the next few weeks to get him out hacking with others from your yard, once he's a bit more confident doing that you could maybe go out on your own after work?
I know you said they're not quiet types but I'm sure if you asked their owners to take it steady they would do their best.

Yes, I plan, once the saddle\back is all OK I am going to have a chat with a couple of the students there, as they normally have livery horses they ride after work, and see if they want to walk around the field with us for 10 mins before they go off to school!