Onset of navicular diagnosed this morning....advice please

J

Jasper1965

Member
Joined
14 June 2012
Messages
12
Location
Milton Keynes
Visit site
Hi! :)
Please can i have people's thoughts on the following....
I currently have my warmblood on 3 months LWVB, and my purchase date is the 22nd August. He came to me having been poorly shod from his previous home, but sound. My farrier has done a fantastic job in balancing his hooves so they now look loads better.
Following his rebalance, he has been very slightly lame in the field, but sound when ridden. I decided against getting him vetted, as knew he would fail, but spent the money on getting his hooves xrayed instead.
So....xrays show the start of navicular in his off fore. His near fore is fine. Vet is happy that he is still fit to do the things I want, but has said that the navicular will eventually limit him.
I need to now go back to his owner with this news. Am looking to say that I am not happy to purchase, but am happy to keep on loan, and will do everything I can to keep him happy and comfortable.
Am i being too soft in keepng him on loan? He is a gorgeous horse and ticks every box i could ever wish for. Should i just send him back and look again? I only have a very small budget for purchase, so am a little restricted.
Alternatively....if i keep him on loan.....what can i do to keep him happy and relatively sound?
Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thank you :)
 
Jasper1965 said:
Hi! :)
Please can i have people's thoughts on the following....
I currently have my warmblood on 3 months LWVB, and my purchase date is the 22nd August. He came to me having been poorly shod from his previous home, but sound. My farrier has done a fantastic job in balancing his hooves so they now look loads better.
Following his rebalance, he has been very slightly lame in the field, but sound when ridden. I decided against getting him vetted, as knew he would fail, but spent the money on getting his hooves xrayed instead.
So....xrays show the start of navicular in his off fore. His near fore is fine. Vet is happy that he is still fit to do the things I want, but has said that the navicular will eventually limit him.
I need to now go back to his owner with this news. Am looking to say that I am not happy to purchase, but am happy to keep on loan, and will do everything I can to keep him happy and comfortable.
Am i being too soft in keepng him on loan? He is a gorgeous horse and ticks every box i could ever wish for. Should i just send him back and look again? I only have a very small budget for purchase, so am a little restricted.
Alternatively....if i keep him on loan.....what can i do to keep him happy and relatively sound?
Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thank you :)
Click to expand...

Barefoot rehab and enjoy a long happy life with him.....

http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/#uds-search-results
http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/page25.html
 
hi my YO has a 27yr old with navicular in both front feet ,hes been worked hard all of his life but still loves nothing more than a ride in the woods and hes no slouch -he goes hell for leather! his navicular was diagnosed at around 17 and for the last 10 years hes been managed with heartbar shoes and isnt lame at all. he has an odd day when he trips a bit on the road if hes not paying attention but no pain relief needed and hes marvellous!
 
If this diagnosis was made on the basis of xrays then you need to know that xrays are very poor indicators of hoof lameness. A huge proportion of sound horses would have xrays at least as bad as those your horse has. The damage that is seen on the xray is very rarely the cause of the lameness, which is normally soft tissue damage.

In your case I would guess that your farrier "rebalancing" his feet has actually caused this, either by altering the balance too quickly, or by altering the balance away from what he actually needed to something that the farrier felt looked better, but the horse did not agree.

I second Oberon's advice. The quickest and best way to sort him is to take the shoes off altogether.
 
cptrayes said:
If this diagnosis was made on the basis of xrays then you need to know that xrays are very poor indicators of hoof lameness. A huge proportion of sound horses would have xrays at least as bad as those your horse has. The damage that is seen on the xray is very rarely the cause of the lameness, which is normally soft tissue damage.

In your case I would guess that your farrier "rebalancing" his feet has actually caused this, either by altering the balance too quickly, or by altering the balance away from what he actually needed to something that the farrier felt looked better, but the horse did not agree.

I second Oberon's advice. The quickest and best way to sort him is to take the shoes off altogether.
Click to expand...

Ditto this and Oberon.

If it is navicular, there's no reason it has to be degenerative.
 
I think this is quite a tricky situation. On one hand you have a horse which you say you didn't have vetted because it wouldn't pass - why did you think it wouldn't pass? So in that case, you already knew there was a problem with the horse. On the other hand, the horse has gone lame in your care and essentially at the hands of your farrier (I know that sounds much worse than it is) so the seller/owner I suppose could claim it is your fault and refuse to take him back. The horse has navicular and IMHO there are enough good, sound horses out there without taking on one that is already lame. Why would you spend your hard earned cash on a horse that is already lame? That said... without the x-rays you would never have known he had navicular and would have bought him anyway.

Personally I'd send him back. You have a horse which two months into your LWVTB is lame and it's only going to cause you heartbreak trying to get it right. I know any horse can incur vet bills later on down the line but a horse that is already lame is going to end up costing you a fortune. You won't be able to insure him so any treatment will be paid for by yourself.

Do you have a contract? What does that say?
 
Of course the barefoot route is the best solution for the horse.

But for you, as he's on loan, send him back and start again. We can all deal with problems in horse health, but never buy them knowingly.
 
You lot are very assumptious that you can remedy this horse without having seen it.

Having done some serious academic research in to Navicular and worked in an equine hospital, I would steer clear.

Navi is degenerative and there is no cure except making the horse comfortable.

Lesions evident on Radiographs can be related to the lameness however due to the low sensitivity and specificity of Radiographs, it is common that they do not show the true pathology present. Also, they do not show soft tissue lesions associated with Navi which are sometimes there (not always!).

If it were my horse then I would be getting MR sequences done on the feet however if I were you then I would send the horse back and save a lot of heartache.
 
jaffa2311 said:
You lot are very assumptious that you can remedy this horse without having seen it.

Having done some serious academic research in to Navicular and worked in an equine hospital, I would steer clear.

Navi is degenerative and there is no cure except making the horse comfortable.

Lesions evident on Radiographs can be related to the lameness however due to the low sensitivity and specificity of Radiographs, it is common that they do not show the true pathology present. Also, they do not show soft tissue lesions associated with Navi which are sometimes there (not always!).

If it were my horse then I would be getting MR sequences done on the feet however if I were you then I would send the horse back and save a lot of heartache.
Click to expand...

How do you account for the large amount of navicular horses who have come sound when the shoes are removed and they are rehabbed barefoot?

How do you account for them staying sound for years afterwards?

I'm afraid the serious academic research you speak of is mostly outdated and filled with holes. I have read a lot of it too.

As is the idea that navicular is degenerative. While the original issue isn't solved (the weakness of the caudal hoof) and merely plastered over with 'remedial' shoes - yes the damage will continue. But that doesn't make navicular degenerative - it's been a long time since the veterinary profession considered that to be correct.

I can promise you that 'us lot' have earnt the right (on this forum at least) to be confident with a simple case of navicular.

Most owners come to barefoot only when it is the final option. We have a couple of owners on here who are treating it as the first option now.

The statistics for success barefoot (although anecdotal and lacking in any serious academic backing) smashes the statistics for success with traditional treatments - especially when looking at long term soundness.

What I am saying is not to discount barefoot as a treatment just because it's not a popular option among vets. There are many vets who don't know what a healthy hoof is supposed to look like.
 
Oberon said:
How do you account for the large amount of navicular horses who have come sound when the shoes are removed and they are rehabbed barefoot?

How do you account for them staying sound for years afterwards?

I'm afraid the serious academic research you speak of is mostly outdated and filled with holes. I have read a lot of it too.

As is the idea that navicular is degenerative. While the original issue isn't solved (the weakness of the caudal hoof) and merely plastered over with 'remedial' shoes - yes the damage will continue. But that doesn't make navicular degenerative - it's been a long time since the veterinary profession considered that to be correct.

I can promise you that 'us lot' have earnt the right (on this forum at least) to be confident with a simple case of navicular.

Most owners come to barefoot only when it is the final option. We have a couple of owners on here who are treating it as the first option now.

The statistics for success barefoot (although anecdotal and lacking in any serious academic backing) smashes the statistics for success with traditional treatments - especially when looking at long term soundness.

What I am saying is not to discount barefoot as a treatment just because it's not a popular option among vets. There are many vets who don't know what a healthy hoof is supposed to look like.
Click to expand...

That's all fine and when you've had a horse for a long time, yes rehab it. But that isn't going to be an easy or quick process. In the OP's situation, why would you take on a horse already diagnosed with navicular when you could buy a sound one? The point of buying a new horse is to have fun with it, not spend a fortune trying to rehab an already broken one.

If my own horse was diagnosed with navicular then I'd probably try the BF route (I'm pretty pro BF anyway but don't have the appropriate livery set up to make it work for my big horse) as I think there's a lot of sense in it. But, in the OP's situation I wouldn't take on the horse. Any horse can go lame but you would expect to at least have some fun on it first, not take on something already broken.
 
chestnut cob said:
That's all fine and when you've had a horse for a long time, yes rehab it. But that isn't going to be an easy or quick process. In the OP's situation, why would you take on a horse already diagnosed with navicular when you could buy a sound one? The point of buying a new horse is to have fun with it, not spend a fortune trying to rehab an already broken one.

If my own horse was diagnosed with navicular then I'd probably try the BF route (I'm pretty pro BF anyway but don't have the appropriate livery set up to make it work for my big horse) as I think there's a lot of sense in it. But, in the OP's situation I wouldn't take on the horse. Any horse can go lame but you would expect to at least have some fun on it first, not take on something already broken.
Click to expand...

I work on the premise that everyone is as soft in the head as I :D

The correct and sensible thing to do is send the horse back, as you say :)

If he were otherwise perfect and I liked him enough, I'd keep it and rehab it - so that I could have the satisfaction of doing so. But then I am stupid....and a raging hoof geek :o :D
 
Oberon said:
I work on the premise that everyone is as soft in the head as I :D

The correct and sensible thing to do is send the horse back, as you say :)

If he were otherwise perfect and I liked him enough, I'd keep it and rehab it - so that I could have the satisfaction of doing so. But then I am stupid....and a raging hoof geek :o :D
Click to expand...

Some of us are as soft in the head as you :p obviously I am equally as stupid ;) as I have gone the route you suggest with total success:eek: obviously my horse hasn't read all that serious academic research ;)

In the OP's position for me it would depend on just how perfect this horse is and how much work I wanted to put into it. Barefoot isn't the easy option but it works!

Stuff it, I'll admit it, I'd keep the horse and go barefoot! :D
 
Last edited:
jaffa2311 said:
Having done some serious academic research in to Navicular and worked in an equine hospital, I would steer clear.
Click to expand...

There is no research available worth the paper it is written on. Studies are on numbers too small to be statistically significant and there are no unshod control groups in any study I am aware of. There is a priceless one that started with 82 horses. They shot 27 straight away because they were "too bad to help". Of the rest some were so little lame that it could not be seen. But they claimed a 50%ish success rate when half the remaining 55 alive were "improved". None of the other studies I can find are any better.

jaffa2311 said:
Navi is degenerative and there is no cure except making the horse comfortable.
Click to expand...

Your research is well out of date. There are now dozens of horses which have returned to full work with a complete absence of symptoms and on no medication nor remedial farriery. If that's not a cure I don't know what you call it.

jaffa2311 said:
Also, they do not show soft tissue lesions associated with Navi which are sometimes there (not always!).
Click to expand...

Again your research is seriously out of date. MRI studies show that it is very rare for caudal hoof lameness not to be associated with soft tissue damage.



jaffa2311 said:
I were you then I would send the horse back and save a lot of heartache.
Click to expand...

So would I. The risk is too high that this is not something easy to cure. It could be a bone spur, cartilage damage, a keratoma or any one of a number of things that could cause mild lameness and a very big vet bill. Unless you know exactly what it is, and you cannot know that without a £1000+ MRI scan, walk away.
 
People spend a lot of time trying to justify the unjustifiable, namely shoeing is 'good' for horses.

Quoting research is fine, but often the parameters of this research are narrow and amended, superseded or even disproved further down the line.

Believe what you want and who you want, but navicular is a man made problem, and best delt with by removing the cause.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top