Opinion on HPA

[ChanceEquine0809]

I wondered if I might be able to gain some experienced opinions from here (please be nice!)

I had a farrier who I really liked but for unforeseen circumstances they had to give up. I then moved onto a temporary farrier who couldn’t really take on any more clients but was doing farrier number one a favour until I found a permanent one which I have (farrier number 3)… that’s the back story.

anyway farrier number two never trimmed back as much as farrier number one and when I questioned it he wasn’t really concerned. farrier number 3 also doesn’t trim back very much and I’m concerned about his pasten angles.

I had a really long conversation with farrier 3 and he seems to really know his stuff and assures me that the angles are balanced and correct but they just seem so long to me but maybe my first farrier was trimming too short and perhaps the first was wrong and the second two are right.

opinions welcome on what I should do. Or whether you think there’s nothing wrong!!

 

[sbloom]

To really judge you need the cannon bone vertical, the near fore fits the bill and to me the angle looks good. To be sure you really need xrays as it's the bony alignment that really matters, and having annual xrays isn't a bad idea. There are growth rings, and I'm not convinced the bony column is fully supported, or that the heels aren't still somewhat underrun, sole shots would give more info, but I think HPA is fairly decent.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

To really judge you need the cannon bone vertical, the near fore fits the bill and to me the angle looks good. To be sure you really need xrays as it's the bony alignment that really matters, and having annual xrays isn't a bad idea. There are growth rings, and I'm not convinced the bony column is fully supported, or that the heels aren't still somewhat underrun, sole shots would give more info, but I think HPA is fairly decent.

Thank you - I’ll take some more pictures.

I have this one from yesterday when he was shod

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

This was the old farrier (number one) so much shorter and heels lifted

 

[sbloom]

The left hind is close to cannon bone vertical and does look broken back. Impossible to tell on the old farrier photos sadly, but there is some element of "prolapse" through the shoe in the shot from the rear, see Progressive Equine Services on FB, they are exceptionally informative on HPA.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

The left hind is close to cannon bone vertical and does look broken back. Impossible to tell on the old farrier photos sadly, but there is some element of "prolapse" through the shoe in the shot from the rear, see Progressive Equine Services on FB, they are exceptionally informative on HPA.

what do you think I should do? I’m struggling so much to find a farrier. I like that this one listens to me but I’m questioning capability as I also think they’re broken back.

 

[HelenBack]

Is it worth having a conversation with your vet to see a) what they think about the horse's feet and b) if they can recommend you a farrier? They often won't criticise a farrier directly but will tell you if there's somebody they think is particularly good, or who they use if they have horses themselves.

It's really important to have a farrier that you can have a good conversation and who you feel knows their stuff, you trust what they're saying and you can raise any concerns with them without them getting shirty. If you feel you have that with this farrier then that is a good start and it might be worth giving them chance as any changes they're making will take a bit of time to show up.

I can't really comment on the photos as it's hard to see and generally I don't like the look of most shod feet. I recently bought a new horse who is shod and I spend a great deal of time looking at his feet and thinking how horrible they look. I have a good relationship with my farrier (most of the time!) though and have already moaned to him about the state of the feet and he agrees with me. We've got a bit of a plan A and and a plan B for trying to sort them out so now I just have to be patient and give it a bit of time, which is a bit easier said than done!

 

[holeymoley]

what do you think I should do? I’m struggling so much to find a farrier. I like that this one listens to me but I’m questioning capability as I also think they’re broken back.

If you want to pull the big guns out with farrier 3 then go down x ray route so that he has something to work off. If not, give it time and see what happens, it will take a period of time to change the balance. In the photo in post 3, I would like to see more heel support in front.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

I’ve called the farrier and he said he’s more than happy to work with my vet and xrays although he said he doesn’t think it strictly necessary.

He said that he has been taking the heels to a foundation point so that the horn tubules grow the right way He sympathised with my frustration but said that it’s better to correct the process slowly rather than finding a quick fix.

The fact he’s so willing to speak me through the process and willing to work with my vet gives me a lot of confidence to be honest. I know I’m a tricky client… but my horse is my world! I’m not sure most farriers would be so patient with me.

Thanks for all of your help, I love this forum.

 

[sbloom]

I don't find vets to be reliable on hoof function and balance, there are plenty who are still anti barefoot as an example. Xrays is the only way to go imo if you want gospel. Taking the heels back will compromise HPA in many cases for sure. Do have a look at that FB page.

 

[Dexter]

This was the old farrier (number one) so much shorter and heels lifted

Those feet would worry me. Compared to thoset he new farrier is doing a much better job!

 

[PurBee]

I’d also get xrays for new farrier. It’s a slow process to correct imbalance, and xrays will give you and him a very clear idea of where the inside of the foot is at.

 

[ycbm]

Those feet would worry me. Compared to thoset he new farrier is doing a much better job!

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. The angles on yesterday's shoeing are dreadfully broken back in front, the heel is collapsed and the toe is too long, is what I'm seeing. I would not be at all happy with that even as a work in progress.
.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

Those feet would worry me. Compared to thoset he new farrier is doing a much better job!

This is encouraging… as to my eye, I see that as a supported heel and supported leg. But now I’m worried about finding the balance.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

I'm not seeing what you are seeing. The angles on yesterday's shoeing are dreadfully broken back in front, the heel is collapsed and the toe is too long, is what I'm seeing. I would not be at all happy with that even as a work in progress.
.

What would you do? This is how I’m seeing it too but I’m questioning my own sanity.

 

[holeymoley]

What would you do? This is how I’m seeing it too but I’m questioning my own sanity.

I would have said the same but then questioned whether it was an improvement on farrier 2. However, if that was the case and he was trying to correct previous work, then I would expect the shoes in front to be placed slightly further back to allow for a better breakover.

 

[ycbm]

What would you do? This is how I’m seeing it too but I’m questioning my own sanity.

I'd take off the shoes, but it's not always an easy solution.
.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

Go barefoot? I don’t think he’s going to handle that, we are on very rocky ground shingley ground (having said that, i do no roadwork)

I’m not sure if there’s much point if i still don’t have the right hoof balance though. I would want to make sure there’s someone to raise his heels and support his bony column before barefoot as an option.

Im so worried I’m doing the wrong thing all the time, I wish all professionals had the same opinion as I just want to trust my farrier but I can see that his heels are collapsing.

do you think that him saying that he needs them to be at a foundation point is incorrect?

I thought the farrier (number 1) I had before was the correct angle so maybe I’m the one that’s wrong and that was too steep

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

Not a great photo sorry I didn’t bring a hoof pick down to the field stupidly but here’s the underside

 

[sbloom]

Roadwork is good for barefoot horses, very good once they're moving better. Rocky ground can be challenging but there are hoof boots. Did you have a look at PES? You need to see a GOOD protocol for shoeing collapsed angles before we can have this conversation properly. IF, IF, you can find someone to shoe to that protocol then you may well be able to improve the angles fairly quickly (several shoeings) and have better feet for going barefoot. A lot of this is about what professionals you have access to - if there's a brilliant trimmer near you then barefoot might be better, if you can find a good farrier to wedge properly, then that may be a better route.

Sole shots really need to be washed, not just picked out, but you can see how much heel is hanging off the back of the shoe, and how drawn forwards and thin the frog is. I suspect those sulcuses are quite deep. Have a poke around right into them if they're deep, I bet there's a good chance you smell a bit of thrush, best treated. Have a look at Red Horse products.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

Roadwork is good for barefoot horses, very good once they're moving better. Rocky ground can be challenging but there are hoof boots. Did you have a look at PES? You need to see a GOOD protocol for shoeing collapsed angles before we can have this conversation properly. IF, IF, you can find someone to shoe to that protocol then you may well be able to improve the angles fairly quickly (several shoeings) and have better feet for going barefoot. A lot of this is about what professionals you have access to - if there's a brilliant trimmer near you then barefoot might be better, if you can find a good farrier to wedge properly, then that may be a better route.

Sole shots really need to be washed, not just picked out, but you can see how much heel is hanging off the back of the shoe, and how drawn forwards and thin the frog is. I suspect those sulcuses are quite deep. Have a poke around right into them if they're deep, I bet there's a good chance you smell a bit of thrush, best treated. Have a look at Red Horse products.

Yes sorry it was so dark when I went up I couldn’t bring him in to do it properly (he lives out 24/7 anyway as he’s a native type)

I did have a good look through PES.

I have access to very few professionals I’m afraid.

He has the very starting of thrush (I’m treating with Red Horse funnily enough) my other pony who is barefoot doesn’t have the same problems so I am used to barefoot. I just don’t think it would suit his feet.

 

[Red-1]

I'm sorry but I really don't like the look of the most recent photos of the work of farrier 3. To me, from these photos, the heels look to have been shod too short and are therefore not supported. In particular the 2nd photo in the 2nd set from farrier 3.

Quite often, they shoe a little short to prevent shoe loss. But then, the feet grow so the shoe appears to be carried forwards, delaying the breakover as the toe is comparatively longer. Then they do lose shoes, and the farrier is proved 'right' about the risk of them losing them, even if they never did lose them when the heel was better supported with a slightly longer shoe.


I would change farrier, or if you don't and it gets worse, take the shoes off so the feet can re-set.

 

[ChanceEquine0809]

I'm sorry but I really don't like the look of the most recent photos of the work of farrier 3. To me, from these photos, the heels look to have been shod too short and are therefore not supported. In particular the 2nd photo in the 2nd set from farrier 3.

Quite often, they shoe a little short to prevent shoe loss. But then, the feet grow so the shoe appears to be carried forwards, delaying the breakover as the toe is comparatively longer. Then they do lose shoes, and the farrier is proved 'right' about the risk of them losing them, even if they never did lose them when the heel was better supported with a slightly longer shoe.


I would change farrier, or if you don't and it gets worse, take the shoes off so the feet can re-set.

Don’t apologise, this was why I asked for the opinion!!

thank you