Opinions? At a loss with my young horse :( long..

[fruity]

Ok so i know this post isn't really for the CR section but feel you guys are....well kinder than NL!

I will try and make a long story short so here goes...... (ok it may be a long one,sorry in advance!)

After much money spending,determination and well tears..... i am at the end of the line with my vvvv quirky young anglo arab.

I really am just looking for your views on the situation and where you would go from here if he was yours.....

I went to see him back in early march and he was advertised as any other advert bar needing a exp home who can bring him on (he is a 5 yr old by Bandmaster,15.2hh chesnut and totally stunning!) the advert sounded ok,thought he was just what i was after (eventual rc all rounder/endurance prospect but needed some work/education) so went off to view him,saw owner who had him in,tacked him up,seemed v friendly and well mannered. I asked if he could be trotted up,o seemed v wary of him so got her OH to trot him up,he behaved v well. I asked if i could see him being ridden,o said her friend had been riding him as he had bucked the actual owner off once when they backed him (o is a nervy rider) alarm bells did ring a bit but lady was vvv nervy so thought i'd wait until i saw the friend ride him. Friend got on and she was v confident and he did try and bronc when she got on a couple of times but was as good as gold after (apparently that was his normal thing to do and then settles) then i got on and although quite lazy he went into walk,trot and canter and gave me a nice ride with good paces,thought def potential there.

Now his background was that he was abandoned from 9 mths (prev at a arab stud) to 4 yrs of age,has not had a lets say a caring past to put it mildy. The owner had rescued him and at that time he was only halter trained.

So anyway agreed with owner i would have him on a 2 week trial,in that time he wasn't too bad,i realised quite soon he is a dominant horse and on the ground was quite pushy,did a lot of in hand work with him and v good to do in that respect now. The first time i took him out for a hack he did his bronc thing when i got on but with a couple of loud no's he was a angel after and was good on the whole ride. He did one the next time i got on and then proceeded to be a angel on the other rides until trial was up. Now as he is tricky a little and does have a few sarcoids around his willy i didn't pay a fortune for him but still a fair amount,he was 2 stage vetted,vet thought he had near perfect confo and was a little cracker! (i work at a vets so they wouldn't of lied!)

We agreed a price and he was mine.

Unfortunately literally the day after i bought him he vertically reared with me for the first time on a vertical hill and also added 2 big proper tb bucks into it,scary the life out of me and my friend who he nearly landed on riding my other horse.

I thought i'd get everything checked over as thought his saddle might of been too tight or similar. Saddler came,saddle a little tight so went up from a M to a MW saddle,physio out,not much going on,a little knot maybe behind one shoulder but nothing at to make him rear or buck. Vet came and did a full lameness type work up,checked his back area,eyes,you name it,bar x rays i've had it all.

I perservered still and after new saddle he was a good boy on a hack,then started taking him in the school and to lunge he is a real pro (old o mainly lunged him when her friend couldn't ride him so a dab hand) sadly when you ask him to trot he either rears or bucks,it does not feel like a pain type thing it feels like he's saying Na! can't be arsed so f5ck off! He is for his breeding vvvv backward and sooo lazy. On a hack once we were doing a very lovely collected canter but i wanted to open it up a bit,but he wasn't up for it so decided to stop dead and rear! Like i said he is a very dominant horse and i really think he's been allowed to get away with soo much before i got him that i was never really going to stand much chance. He really does have the most tremendous tantrums,but with it he is very cuddly on the ground and v loving,he is not a spooky type out hacking and most things don't phase him apart from when his rider asks for something he doesn't want to do.

I kept going in the school so i could start going to some walk/trot tests and he did start to be ok sometimes,went to a vvv low key dressage (on my birthday,not a good idea for your spirits with a naughty young horse!!) and he was fine until i asked for trot in the warm and he went bolt upright. Carried on in walk for a bit,after a bit he stopped dead,i kicked,could not get him to walk on,my friend cam over and literally put her hand on his reins and he reared up again strking her shoulder on the way down. He also did a couple of bucks in the warm up too. I did do my test but in places he refused to trot on,i felt if i had smacked him with the whip he would of had the biggest tantrum and i know he would of got me off so i left it there after he finished my first test and went home. He was totally fine when he was back at the trailer and travelled great as always home.

So since then i havn't really ridden him as tbh i am now getting v wary of him,i really don't know what he's going to do when i get on him (just buck/just rear/both!),one day he's fine the next he's a nightmare. I've had vvv quirky ones in the past but he is a different story!

I could get x rays etc done but at the same time i've spent a fortune on him already and havn't been able to go for more than 3 nice hacks in these past 4 mths.

I thought about sending him off to a naughty horse specialist but in these past 2 weeks he has attacked my dartmoor gelding pony twice in the field and i saw him go from being normal Castielle to evil Castielle in less than 2 secs,similar to when i ride him,it literally comes out of no where. He is now seperated from my others but can still see other horses.

I am thinking the kindest thing would be to get him PTS as he will never be able to be a companion at least,although he does seem ok with mares when turned out.

I rang his old owner to tell her what's been happening last week and i was shocked when she said he had got 2 pro's off apparently last year rearing hence why she didn't ever ride him again when he got her off! (if i was told that when i viewed him i wouldn't of even got on him!) She also said if i hadn't come along he would of had the bullet and that if i chose that route she wouldn't blame me for it! Wasn't that happy after that tel convo.... real truths came out.

It's wierd as i really do care about him and love him dearly even though he does try and kill me,he is a stunning horse and has moves to die for! He has shown some nice work when i've ridden him but he takes two steps back the next time you get on. He has done 2 long endurance rides with me and we went with 2 pro riders and he led the whole way and through 2 river crossings and i feel he would be ok to do that as it's in the school he does it now,hacks seem to be ok. The 2 ladies thought he was very good and that he could go all the way if i was serious enough.He has a great heart beat and can really cover the ground so that could be a maybe. I'm so unsure as to what's best,where to start?

So sorry it's been a ridiculously long post,can offer homemade lemonade and shortbread.

Any advice/thoughts,please be kind i am in a mess about the whole thing (((

 

[monkeymad]

Could you have him tested to see if he is a rig?

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

As the owner of another bolshy young Anglo I feel your pain. Search for my past Harry updates (particularly the 'War' one) and your boy will seem sane! Though to be fair on Harry he has been an angel recently.

I remember your original post when you got him and he did sound like a bit of a challenge. Very wrong of the seller not to have mentioned the rearing before hand!

His past sounds very chequered and he probably has some 'baggage' and it may be what you are seeing.
To start with I would look at who broke him in and how. It may pay to go right back to basics and get him 100% obedient to the voice from the floor and long rein him out and stuff so that if he does decide to have a tantrum you are at the end of a long rope!
Then if you say he is happy/goes better out hacking just do that, forget schooling in the arena for a few months and work on getting him thinking forward on trails.

When you handle him on the ground even when having 'huggy' moments make sure that it is all entierly on your terms. If he tried to walk away by walking though you make him back up and out of your space. Be 100% black and white so that he learns that if you say Jump - he jumps!

They say Arabs are meant to be smart and that is what makes them so difficult. I rode a one for years that you had carry a stick if you wanted to leave a walk, but hit/tap him more than 3 times in 5 minutes and he would literally sit down. He was hellishly hard work at first, but one day a switch flicked in his head and he was great (well a lot better) after that.

Good luck, and keep us posted about how things go.

 

[siennamum]

Off the top of my head he does sound like he has quickly worked out that he is bigger and stronger than people and that rearing is the ultimate evasion and guaranteed to put him in charge.

My youngster is very dominant and wilful, but nowhere near to the extent of yours, If I feel he is getting above himself I lunge mine till he is submissive. Sounds like you can't even do that.

In your place I would personally find a rough and ready problem horse fixer and be up front about his problems. Your boy may never have really met his match and it might shock him into submission. If that doesn't work, I'd PTS and buy a nice horse.

Disgraceful that the seller didn't tell you the truth.

 

[ihatework]

Ditto siennamum,

If you are sure it's a temprement/dominance thing then one last chance with a rough rider who will take him on. Then shoot him.

May sound harsh but tbh it's probably fairer on the horse too.

Is he showing any discomfort signs - i.e. face pulling/girthy to tack up etc.?

 

[MissTyc]

The horse is 5!
Even my most angelic pony turned into a red-eyed demon at 5. They test and push and learn they're big and strong and develop an evil laugh as they try to send you flying through the air. My cob developed a stop + rear like you describe. I was terrified, but luckily know some excellent instructors and we (ok, they) worked through it.
Nothing you've described sounds like a PTS case (YET!). At his age I would be tempted to reschool him from the ground for 6 weeks now - lunge and long reins until that side of things was going well in the school and some confidence restored on both sides, then turn away until early spring, at which point off to a pro he goes for rebacking and bringing on with new tack, new everything.
If you don't want to do this, it must be possible to gift him to a pro for reschooling & selling as they'd v likely make a profit?! ... or some Parelli Person might be interested for the long term faffing around ...

 

[SpottedCat]

I agree that a rough rider would be an idea, but just a thought - the laziness coupled with the reaction you get to asking for forwards does make me think ulcers. I know I probably come across as having advanced ulcer paranoia on here, but for the sake of £150 you may as well get him scoped to rule it out, surely? People (and vets) think a horse has to have a whole litany of symptoms but sometimes it is just behavioural.

 

[jrp204]

If you are at the stage when you feel you can do no more with him, you have to go with your conscious about moving him on or pts. Whether he is 5 or 15 he can still cause serious injury or worse, ok, he may grow out of it but how long will this take and how many people will get hurt in the mean time? Also the longer his behaviour continues the more set it will become.
Good luck with your decision, you know your horse, none of us do, and everyones an expert. You have to live with your decision and I know which way I would go.

 

[YasandCrystal]

The horse is 5!
Even my most angelic pony turned into a red-eyed demon at 5. They test and push and learn they're big and strong and develop an evil laugh as they try to send you flying through the air. My cob developed a stop + rear like you describe. I was terrified, but luckily know some excellent instructors and we (ok, they) worked through it.
Nothing you've described sounds like a PTS case (YET!). At his age I would be tempted to reschool him from the ground for 6 weeks now - lunge and long reins until that side of things was going well in the school and some confidence restored on both sides, then turn away until early spring, at which point off to a pro he goes for rebacking and bringing on with new tack, new everything.
If you don't want to do this, it must be possible to gift him to a pro for reschooling & selling as they'd v likely make a profit?! ... or some Parelli Person might be interested for the long term faffing around ...

^^ Echo this!

 

[ecrozier]

Em I should have said yesterday, if you want to try to keep him long term (and I would fully understand if you felt you didn't want to take that risk) I would get Richard maxwell out or even better send him to max. It wouldn't be cheap but I know a few people who have had 'dangerous' horses that others have said only option is to PTS, and max has brought them round. Yes he does 'natural horsemanship' but he also takes absolutely no rubbish at all and will very quickly put a stroppy young horse in it's place. He'd also give you a realistic long term assessment I think. Got to be worth a try maybe when D sells? Or

 

[dominobrown]

I bet that horse is in pain. If he is backward etc all the time, and horrible to ride yet a nice horse when not being ridden or under pressure. Have you had its back x-rayed?

 

[flyingfeet]

Depending on how much cash you have I would get him to a good person for reschooling to see their opinion (Richard Maxwell, Jason Webb etc depending on where you are)

If you are tight for cash, I would find your local polo yard and find a Argi or similar to have a go and see their opinion

Failing that the horse is 5, but learnt horrible habits from a young age, and with the best will in the world is now "spoilt" - it is 10 times harder to fix one of these than bring on a unhandled youngster taught good manners from day one

Also the fact that you've said you wouldn't hit him, indicates to me that you are probably becoming very nervous on top (and who can blame you with a rearing monster)

I don't like violence, but all youngsters go through a horrible patch and if you don't firmly put them in there place they quickly learn terrible habits. All of mine that tried rearing get a swipe of their ears with my hand (well timed) and hopefully decide against trying that one again.

So assess what you paid, meat money and how much it will cost to fix (if possible) and make a decision based on the fact that horses are supposed to be a fun hobby.

 

[glenruby]

Id try him on a bute trial for a min of 2 weeks before making any decisions.

 

[fruity]

Thanks all for your replies,I was going to send him to Chris Haywood or a man called Tom Ilsey who sorts horses and I've heard good things about him.The owners friend who rode him used to hit him between the ears when he went up but she said it made him worse if anything. I am not the worlds madly loonily brave rider but I am more than capable dealing with the rearing and bucking, I have told him off when he's done it but tbh it makes him have a tantrum for longer and it's normally worse if you smack him with the whip,esp between the ears. I didn't go smacking him like mad at the dressage as didn't want people to talk,it was all a little cliky up there and thought best to take him out rather than have a collasal fight in front of a scene. I do sometimes think he could do with a good hiding but at the same time I'm not expert enough to know if that's what he needs/is the right thing to do? I have had him scoped by a colleague and he is all fine there. I have trialed him on 3 wks of bute and he was no different. He is good as gold to groom and tack up and never shows any grumpy type behaviour. On the ground I'm v firm but fair and he is a very good boy now in that respect,which is a big improvement as when I got him he was v bolshy. I have a lot of people around me saying I should have him pts but I think he is def not there yet. He is 6 in august and I really want to try and do what's best for him. I am going to find out how much x rays would be at work,that's the only thing left I havn't tried,at least then I'll know it is just behavioural. I will let you know how we get on.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

She obviously gave him a little calmer knowing you were going to ask someone to ride him i bet i would demand your money back if she doesn't give it to you take her to small claims

failing that you could try Richard maxwell

Chris Haywood is brilliant he told me on the phone he had just got a 18 .2 horse in this year i seen it bolted and i mean bolted with everyone that got on it no stopping it bolted out ring out on hack you name it he just did a dressage test on it and it got placed there is no horse yet that he hasn't worked on that hasn't improved beyond belief. he can now ride it in arena without it bolting

 

[BigRed]

I am going through a similar although not so dramatic problem as yourself. I bought a young horse 3 months ago, who rears and naps. I now realise the vendor knew all about this and just lied and covered it up. My horse is also very polite and friendly to handle. We have found out that she did not have the best start in life as a baby and her ridden career was a little rushed. The vendor gave her several good hidings and this has resulted in a large and strong 16.2, 5 year old who will happily stand up vertically when she doesn't want to do something. I too have had professionals come in and I am now in the process of working with a young woman who works with Kelly Marks. We have seen a lot of improvement in our mare's attitude over the last month and I am hopeful we can overcome these problems. Not by hitting her, or getting a tough/rough rider on board - in fact these are probably WHY she behaves like this in the first place. We need to show our horse that it is not necessary to rear or nap. She is learning. You could do worse than try NH, it is not fluffy or mumbo jumbo. They believe in firm discipline in small things that filter down into all their ridden work.

I agree that you will be doing the right thing by your horse if you decide to have him pts, rather than pass him onto someone else, who might not be so considerate. It also protects someone else from being sold a problem.

 

[ironhorse]

I too have had professionals come in and I am now in the process of working with a young woman who works with Kelly Marks. We have seen a lot of improvement in our mare's attitude over the last month and I am hopeful we can overcome these problems. Not by hitting her, or getting a tough/rough rider on board - in fact these are probably WHY she behaves like this in the first place. We need to show our horse that it is not necessary to rear or nap. She is learning. You could do worse than try NH, it is not fluffy or mumbo jumbo. They believe in firm discipline in small things that filter down into all their ridden work.

Fair point Big Red, but yours is a mare, and IMO mares are more likely to say ******* off if someone is tough with them than a gelding who can sometimes be sorted by a 'tough' rider.
BUT I agree that someone that combines NH techniques with a no nonsense attitude is usually the best way forward, Richard Maxwell and Michael Peace are good examples of this as in fact is Kelly Marks. NH does not have to mean fluffy!

 

[charterline]

If they can use a portable xray machine at stables that shouldnt be to expensive?

 

[Roody2]

I don't think she's that close to your location but you could try contacting Janet George (she posts on here quite often), she has built herself quite a HHO reputation for being excellent with reschooling difficult horses and breaking youngsters.

I do sympathise with you, I think it sounds like he has got his hooves under the carpet now and he know's where your limits are. It can't hurt to check for ulcers, another poster on here (Ilovefoals) recently had real difficulties with bringing a horse back into work and it turned out her mare had ulcers.

 

[fruity]

Have had him scoped for ulcers,all fine there he got the all clear. I spoke to a Tom Ilsey today who is v good with tb types,mainly ex racers off the track. He said he has had 3 Bandmasters and said they can be v quirky in their brain,2 went on to be good horses another had to be pts due to it being mentally scarred and too far gone to help. He is very sensible and sais it how it is,which for this issue is good. I know through a friend that he has got her rearing mare going nicely now and has now handed her back to the owner and all is good so far. Not cheap but I think I've got to give him this chance. I'm also getting x rays of his back done at work asap so will be interesting if anything shows up. I too feel that his abandoned past hasn't helped and that he was rushed a little in the breaking process,I think it may be best to go right back to basics and will be requesting whereever he goes to do this.

 

[siennamum]

Personally I wouldn't want them to go back to basics, let them decide according to their methods. When your horse moves there will be a window of opportunity for the person to exploit while your horse is feeling insecure and hopefully looking for leadership. (this is my opinion anyway). For a few days, your horse can be dominated into submission (by whatever means), you may find there is quite a quick fix to this. It really doesn't sound like your horse is insecure or unsure of what's expected of him.

 

[Sandylou]

I think he's too young to call it a day yet. To give him a chance I think you should go back to basics and make sure he is given time and patience.
There is a good horseman in South Notts/North Leicestershire called Daniel Videla - google him - he's an endurance rider so has lots of experience with Arab types.

 

[jules89]

good luck to you, have read this thread with interest. You sound like you are doing a cracking job and I will be looking forward to hearing/reading what happens

p.s. u must have balls of steel my friend!!

 

[shortstuff99]

I don't really know many re-training people but just to through my 2 pennies worth in- I used to ride a young mare who used to be good as gold and then had pretty much the same issues as your guy. Everyone (even the owner!) thought it was just her attitude but I wasn't 100% convinced turns out she has arthritis in the neck and this coupled with her attitude made for a scary horse! Its just a thought it could be something really random. But good luck!

 

[IncaCola]

It sounds like you are really doing the best for this horse and I totally agree you should send him to an experienced horse man for there opinion and hopefully a solution. As you have done a bute trial and scoped I think you might be wasting your money on x-rays at this stage as the problem really does sound behavioural rather than physical in that he has learned issues. However if you can afford it, it will give you some piece of mind. I agree with Tom that in my experience Bandmasters can be bolshy and domineering unfortunately. One other thing i would never recommend hitting a horse that rears between the ears as it is very likely to make them worse. If a horse does need a punishment much more effective is to carry a long leather strap (think its called an up and under ny NH people) and smack it on its belly. I am sure Tom or Chris will be able to help atleast in the decision on whether to perservere and hopefully they will help you turn the corner with him.

 

[Luci07]

I will be interested to hear how you get on and hope you will post updates.

 

[TPO]

Random musing but if he's been getting hit when rearing could there be poll damage (which bridle could aggravate)? The poll area is VERY sensitive.

Another vote for Richard Maxwell or someone of his ilk.

Good luck, I know it's not any fun when you have a horse that carries on this way for no apparent reason.

 

[Petunia]

Caveat emptor - in other words you have no chance against seller so am glad you are not going down that route!

I had a mare that was very similar..bought from a dealer and advertised as very easy. Turned out to be anything but - I was taken for a complete ride literally. I went exactly down the route you are going, checked everything out physically, tack wise etc and realised that she was not only difficult in breeding terms (her sire either produced donkeys or horrors and I seemed to have got the combination of both!), but she had been very badly backed. She was so badly behind the leg - put the leg on and she just said sod off, napped, spooked, waved her paws at people oh you name it, and also tried to kill my little companion pony when I turned them out together. I was at my wits end. Dealer refused to take her back so I was stuck.

I wanted something easy and found myself with a project - plus I felt an odd responsibility for her. Persevered, got her going (not pleasant to be fair) and 5 months later sold her going much much better but still a project to someone who wanted exactly that. She went to her next home, behaved and then started to misbehave again because she had been allowed to get away with things!

Fortunately a couple of years further on, the new owner loves her.

I would get someone in to help you if you can rather than send her away - because actually you have to deal with this.....

 

[fruity]

Thanks again all for you input,I think this Tom guy is going to be a good option for my lad at the mo,it helps he is less than 10 miles from me also so can go over there and still ride Cas hopefully working with him,I by no means want to leave it to him all together ad like someone just posted it is actually me who has to deal with him in the long run,I'm really looking for guidance and thoughts on what route is best to go down. So funny really the minute I said Bandmaster he said 'ah that'll be the bolshy/dominance in him', I will keep everyone posted. Getting x rays done of poll to tail before he goes so I know whether it there is anything at all going on physically,that way there is no excuses for him when he goes off for schooling. Fingers crossed my chap will see sense,if he could just work with his rider when asked he will be a cracker,he never spooks and is a brave chap so if he ever overcomes all this I know me and him make a good team and we could do well. Xx

 

[Auslander]

Tom is great. A real old fashioned horseman, who takes no crap, but doesn't use brute force and ignorance. He used to ride youngsters and stallions for a woman I worked for, and even the horrid ones went very sweetly for him. Good choice...