Opinions on his back confo re saddle problems

Kenzo

Kenzo

Well-Known Member
Joined
28 February 2008
Messages
13,924
Location
Yorkshire
Visit site
I know he doesn't look terribly abnormal to look at from a first glance but can anyone see why I'm struggling with saddle fitting or anyone else had or having similar problems?

He's a 16.1 ID/WB, I'd say middle weight type, has chunky withers, no wither pockets and also you can't really tell from this photo as it was taken when he still had some winter coat but is very muscular aruond his withers and shoulder areas.

He measures up to XW (if you were using the Thorowgood measuring guide for example) not sure if you can tell from the photos but he's got big set back shoulders (or at least that's what I've discovered and been told) the area just below and partly behind the withers is where a lot of his movement is, so the saddle has to skim over or drop behind this area but doesn't leave much room.

He's also very short backed for his size and a lot of saddles when sat in the correct position, where the girth straps fall, they don't fall where his natural girth line is, they fall further back, so when I girth up, I either do it where the straps fall (which obviously is not in the right place on him) or if I girth up where the girth should lie, it pulls the saddle forward which creates un even pressure as well, this occurs with 17'' saddles also.

When I've mentioned to saddlers about trying a 16.5'' purely for seeing if it makes any difference (when taking saddles away to try that is) they have looked at me rather strange and said he'll be fine in a 17'' for his size but I've never actuallly tried one, I'm wondering if this maybe where I'm going wrong? some people have said that I'd be ok in 16.5 but I'm 5'6 dress size 8 to 10, (not got a big bum) but surely a 16.5'' would be too small for me? maybe not seat wise I've got a small bottom but with regards to spreading the weight and my lengh of leg?

Is he an odd ball shape? (as in what you can see from the photo, I know you can't see his legs) ignore the random handbag in the back ground :D

IMAG0211.jpg


IMAG0210.jpg
 
Hattie's saddles shoot forward as most saddles have the girth straps set too far back for her very forward girth groove (she also doesn't have with pockets either despite being a TB!). It took me ages to realize this as I had never had a horse with this problem before but now I look for saddles with girth straps set as close to the tree points as I can get AND also get point straps put on each tree point as well.

One of the selling points when I bought my latest side saddle, was that the girth straps were very forward placed and there was a point strap on the off-side as well so obviously whoever had this saddle made 80 years ago, had a horse with the same problem as Hattie!

This is also why I have ordered a Kent & Masters saddle as they have point straps built in and the girth straps can be set right close to the tree points.

I also have to make sure saddles have flattish panels, not curved banana shaped panels like Wintecs have.

Flattish panels, point straps and girth straps set as close to the tree points as possible, is the only way that I have found to fit such a type horse!
 
just thinking, my old horse had a short back and i ended up with a very forward cut saddle almost like a jumping saddle and it sat lovely on him and the girth was right position too.
 
have you tried using one of the styles of girth that is designed for a more forwards girth groove and allows the saddle to sit in the correct position?
 
Have you thought about having a made to measure saddle for him and you?

Could be the answer.....
 
He has a similar shame to my mare. Either the girth pulls the saddle forward or it flaps around behind because its not sat in the right place because of her girth!!!
Pain in the bum of a pony!
He doesn't have much to hold a saddle on around his withers does he?

ETA: its not the size of your bum that would be the issue for a 16.5inch, it would be your length of leg from your knee to hip.
I am 5ft3 but I can't have anything smaller then a 17inch because I am long from my knee to my hip and no matter how long I ride my knee will sit ontop of the knee rolls as opposed to sitting behind them comfortabily.
 
Last edited:
sidesaddlegirl said:
Hattie's saddles shoot forward as most saddles have the girth straps set too far back for her very forward girth groove (she also doesn't have with pockets either despite being a TB!). It took me ages to realize this as I had never had a horse with this problem before but now I look for saddles with girth straps set as close to the tree points as I can get AND also get point straps put on each tree point as well.

One of the selling points when I bought my latest side saddle, was that the girth straps were very forward placed and there was a point strap on the off-side as well so obviously whoever had this saddle made 80 years ago, had a horse with the same problem as Hattie!

This is also why I have ordered a Kent & Masters saddle as they have point straps built in and the girth straps can be set right close to the tree points.

I also have to make sure saddles have flattish panels, not curved banana shaped panels like Wintecs have.

Flattish panels, point straps and girth straps set as close to the tree points as possible, is the only way that I have found to fit such a type horse!
Click to expand...

Yeah I've had an Ideal which fitted him nicely but that was last year, I only got about 4 to 5 months out of it and he muscled up filled out since I bought it, also changed shape due to his age as expected.

I've tried TG Cob 3D in XW which sits nice (both his back conture and around the shoulder/wither area) but still the girth straps don't fall in the right place, the saddle still rides forward (not a huge amount) but still enough that is is not in the correct position (although looks ok from the ground until you really look and have good feel) as it feels tight around the lower wither (plenty of wither clearance by the way) but tight from down there onwards, but the don't do a 16.5'' to try as my thoughts were that perphaps a 16.5'' tree may be better even though a 17'' clears the danger zone at the rear.
Saddler told me to try some narrower saddles as she said I was going to wide and must be sitting too low (which is wasn't) so took a boot full home or mediums and mediums wides and they were far too narrow, even though I took a template of his back which is why I really need somone to come out and see what I mean when I'm explaining the problems I'm having.

I've since rang Patrick at Beverly and has agreed to come out, but has nothing in at the moment second hand that will fit, so I'm looking having to buying something new for around £1000 which I can't afford right now :(
 
ester said:
have you tried using one of the styles of girth that is designed for a more forwards girth groove and allows the saddle to sit in the correct position?
Click to expand...

Yes your right, I've thought about that already, that is something I will have to get when I have the right saddle, what's the specific name for them though?, can't think what they call them.
 
H girths?

I found that a leather stud girth fixed the problem with my mare. It stays exactly where I put it as it is far to big to be pulled into her girth groove.
 
im 5'7/8 and i ride in 17 or 16.5 depending on the style of the saddle. im probably about the same size as you but i think i have a nicely rounded bum :) i think you should be ok. i think its what fits the horse too though. good luck finding one :) X
 
Damnation said:
He has a similar shame to my mare. Either the girth pulls the saddle forward or it flaps around behind because its not sat in the right place because of her girth!!!
Pain in the bum of a pony!
He doesn't have much to hold a saddle on around his withers does he?

ETA: its not the size of your bum that would be the issue for a 16.5inch, it would be your length of leg from your knee to hip.
I am 5ft3 but I can't have anything smaller then a 17inch because I am long from my knee to my hip and no matter how long I ride my knee will sit ontop of the knee rolls as opposed to sitting behind them comfortabily.
Click to expand...

No he doesn't, if he chucks a few big bucks in your saddle slips forward, I think even with a good fit I'd always have that that issue if he busted some moves, but then I'm going to have the same problem if I wanted to do some jumping *bashes head on wall*

Yes that's what I'm thinking you see, I've got quite a long thigh, so unless I went for a dressage style then I'd struggle with a 16.5'' surely but maybe at the end of the day that is all my horse can take?...I duno.:confused:

Thing is I'm more suited to something more forward cut, although I'm not jumping him at the moment is will be something I'll be wanting to do but despite that I need a secure seat as he can be a buggar at times, I don't think a dressage/VSD saddle would give me that security thats all, but beggars can't be choosers.
 
equipe-br01&03-studpro-vel&sheep.jpg


I have one like this (luckily found it at a bargain price) with the sheepskin lining because she also has very fine skin.

I had alot of trouble finding a saddle for her and in the end a close contact jumping saddle with the stud girth, plus a barnsby grip numnah solved the problem.
 
amymay said:
Have you thought about having a made to measure saddle for him and you?

Could be the answer.....
Click to expand...

I think that is the only option I'm going to be left with if Patrick can't fix me up with anything new, I'll either have to save or see what fits and hope I can find the same model and fit second hand maybe.

Even if he comes out and can't find anything to fit new, least I know and have his opinon on things.
 
From what I can see and it is hard to determine from photos, his trapezius is a bit well developed, this usually happens on youngsters or older horses that have not received enough schooling to help them balance themselves up. The result is you have a horse that is on the forehand (front wheel drive rather than 4 wheel drive!) when the horse learns to bring the hocks in under themselves and balance them selves up, the top line builds up nicely and the trapezius tends to reduce in size, it is quite common a problem. IF it is this as I said it is hard to be absolutely sure from the photos, then there is a remedy, I usually used to fit over wide saddles in the first instance allowing the room for the trapezius and therefore not allowing any restriction and pressure on the shoulder anywhere, I would over flock it to make sure it is clear of the spine (wither pads can also be used).
Then as the horse is worked in the right way it needs to stop them being on the forehand you can either alter the width if an adjustable tree or change the saddle for a narrower one.
The clue to this possibly being your problem stems from you saying that the measurement across the withers is XW as at a glance I would say (with out the trapezius in the way) he is a medium or m/w
The large trapezius also would make the saddle move back when placed on the horse and therefore the girth straps and girth would not be lined up in the sternum groove.
Get back to the saddle or saddle fitter who is fitting saddles for you and mention this, see if you can have a re think, get them to check the size of the trapezius both sides, you may find one is larger than the other (usually nearside) too. Get them to template the withers to use as a comparison later down the line to see if the traps have gone down sufficiently. Hope this helps?
Oz :)
 
Last edited:
ester said:
there are 2 types, there are wavy ergonomic ones, http://www.wathvalesaddlery.co.uk/onlineshop/singleitem.asp?stockid=86


(we use one of these on my mum's mare) or some half-moon shaped ones

http://www.proformequine.co.uk/p-Passier_Forward_Curved_Dressage_Girth-7038.aspx

most descriptions when I was looking included curved, half moon, ergonomic and anatomic! I know I found a full length leather half moon one but not sure where now!
Click to expand...

Yes that's them, thanks for the links, I'll need get one of these or ask the saddler to bring one so I can try the saddles with one of these types of girths.

Cheers for that.
 
unicornleather said:
From what I can see and it is hard to determine from photos, his trapezius is a bit well developed, this usually happens on youngsters or older horses that have not received enough schooling to help them balance themselves up. The result is you have a horse that is on the forehand (front wheel drive rather than 4 wheel drive!) when the horse learns to bring the hocks in under themselves and balance them selves up, the top line builds up nicely and the trapezius tends to reduce in size, it is quite common a problem. IF it is this as I said it is hard to be absolutely sure from the photos, then there is a remedy, I usually used to fit over wide saddles in the first instance allowing the room for the trapezius and therefore not allowing any restriction and pressure on the shoulder anywhere, I would over flock it to make sure it is clear of the spine (wither pads can also be used).
Then as the horse is worked in the right way it needs to stop them being on the forehand you can either alter the width if an adjustable tree or change the saddle for a narrower one.
The clue to this possibly being your problem stems from you saying that the measurement across the withers is XW as at a glance I would say (with out the trapezius in the way) he is a medium or m/w
The large trapezius also would make the saddle move back when placed on the horse and therefore the girth straps and girth would not be lined up in the sternum groove.
Get back to the saddle or saddle fitter who is fitting saddles for you and mention this, see if you can have a re think, get them to check the size of the trapezius both sides, you may find one is larger than the ohter (usually nearside) too. Get them to template the withers to use as a comparison later down the line to see if the traps have gone down sufficiently. Hope this helps?
Oz :)
Click to expand...

Arrr right, now that is really interesting and I think you may of hit the nail on the head there.

He's 6 and getting him to work well from behind and lift through his back is quite hard, well when I say this, it isn't but we don't have a very good school surface (small school and it's too soft ) so I purposely don't do too much with him in the school (as in the length of time) as it will be tiring on his legs, once he's fully warmed up and working well he uses himself and comes round but by the time we get to that stage he's done quite a bit and I'm worried he's done enough (in our school that is).

I know when I had a lesson on him last year (not in our school) the instructor said he's not built very well and because of his shape he'll struggle work correctly and come under himself.

He needs to work long and low but he's got a naturally high head carriage (I don't mean like a giraffe way of going) but he's also quite sharp so I can't work him up so to speak which is what I need to do to, so I'm a stuck between a rock a hard place, I think perhaps he'll school better once have a saddle like you say that's wide enough for me to pad out a bit because if there not fitting right he's going to be tense around that area anyway.

That's very helpful though, thank you.
 
Hi
I had the same probable with my cob. He has quite a short back and I'm 5ft5in but with a short thigh so we're both comfortable with a 16in saddle!
Also maybe trying a high riser pad would help this problem and stop any pressure in the wrong places. If the saddle doesn't stop moving forward you might need to use a couper(not sure if that's spelt right)
And I think your looking for an atherstone girth, I wouldn't use anything else
 
Kenzo said:
No he doesn't, if he chucks a few big bucks in your saddle slips forward, I think even with a good fit I'd always have that that issue if he busted some moves, but then I'm going to have the same problem if I wanted to do some jumping *bashes head on wall*

Yes that's what I'm thinking you see, I've got quite a long thigh, so unless I went for a dressage style then I'd struggle with a 16.5'' surely but maybe at the end of the day that is all my horse can take?...I duno.:confused:

Thing is I'm more suited to something more forward cut, although I'm not jumping him at the moment is will be something I'll be wanting to do but despite that I need a secure seat as he can be a buggar at times, I don't think a dressage/VSD saddle would give me that security thats all, but beggars can't be choosers.
Click to expand...

Busting some moves.. love it :D Around here they call it busting some shapes ;)

If you are willing to spend the money, something like an Ideal jessica will give you pleanty of security. I have one and I LOVE it!!!! It has kept me in the saddle far better then my mares GP, the only reason I am riding in the GP now is because.. funnily enough the DR saddle doesn't fit anymore :eek: :D :D :D

The woman who used to own the saddle was more then happy to go hound exercising and hunting in it and it has kept me secure through rodeo displays, galloping down the road, sudden "manovers" in the opposite direction in the school, so far I haven't fall off that saddle yet! Deep seat, knee rolls, narrow twist.. what more can a girl want?!!!! :D
 
:D we bust moves rather than shapes round here ;)


Thanks Damnation, yes I do really like Ideal saddles, I'm reluctant about selling mine, maybe an Ideal in an extra wide would be worth trying.
 
Hi, my boy is very short coupled too and Ive fit in a 17 inch saddle with a sweeping back to try to give me a bit more room for 8 yrs until recently after having rubbed bits :eek: Im 5'7 and a size 12 so Im sure you would fit more comfortably in a 16.5 than I have in mine. So after a chat with the saddler Ive had a made to measure 17.5 inch seat to give me more room but on a 17 inch tree or something like that :confused: to keep it shorter for him. Ive had it a few months now and have never got on with it and its now not right on my boy so Ive spoke to the saddler today who is coming out again.
If you can fit in a 16.5 comfortably I would go with that. I wish Id never swapped :(.
 
Kenzo said:
:D we bust moves rather than shapes round here ;)


Thanks Damnation, yes I do really like Ideal saddles, I'm reluctant about selling mine, maybe an Ideal in an extra wide would be worth trying.
Click to expand...

"Bustin sum shapes" must be a hillbilly Cumbrian thing then :D
Hope you get your saddle sorted, I have mine being done on Friday.. dreading the cost, I was paid 10 days ago and I am already broke :eek:

D :D
 
Damnation said:
"Bustin sum shapes" must be a hillbilly Cumbrian thing then :D
Hope you get your saddle sorted, I have mine being done on Friday.. dreading the cost, I was paid 10 days ago and I am already broke :eek:

D :D
Click to expand...

Thanks and join the club, I've just had their injections done, so I've got a a nice vet bill to pay, plus he throw a shoe yesterday somewhere on our hack (borrowed friends saddle) so another farrier visit.

Think I might just take up knitting instead! :D

Hope you get a your saddle sorted too.

ah the joys!
 
Kenzo said:
Thanks and join the club, I've just had their injections done, so I've got a a nice vet bill to pay, plus he throw a shoe yesterday somewhere on our hack (borrowed friends saddle) so another farrier visit.

Think I might just take up knitting instead! :D

Hope you get a your saddle sorted too.

ah the joys!
Click to expand...

Haha thank you :D
If the saddle won't fit the pony she will be sold :mad: Then I will go horse hunting for a horse that fits the saddle!!!!!
I love it soo much :D
I still owe my vet for jabs from march :eek: ...
 
Damnation said:
Haha thank you :D
Then I will go horse hunting for a horse that fits the saddle!!!!!
Click to expand...

I have been told this by several people when joking about it, ''wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a horse to fit the saddles you have?''....I think they might be right, when I've totted up how much I've spent on fuel, saddles, fitters, re-flocking.

Yep, I could of bought a nice TB with yes WITH tack included....that fits!!!!!:rolleyes:
 
The best advice i would give is to get a good saddler to make a made to measure. I have a 15.2 cob who is short in the back and I am 5ft 9. I ended up having a 17" made beceause anything bigger was sitting on his loins. I tried lots of off the peg saddles, wintec, thoroughgood, etc, before I had a sadle made. By this time my ned had started rearing and spooking. Turned out his back is also prone to soreness partly due to his confirmation. It took me ages to get to the point where I could get back to riding him. I ended up having to spend money on physio as well as a new saddle. At least I know now that he has the best saddle for him.
 
Hi,
I don't see a problem with the beasties back...however you might try a 16 or 16 1/2 inch Ideal WH. You can jump in them, they are long enough in the leg and sit behind the shoulder, which judging by the confrimation, a Thorowgood won't. Thorowgoods are nice saddles but not always for chunkies.

Get your saddler to check where the last rib is...you may find a larger saddle goes over the last rib and support where you sit is then lost.

Best of luck.
Bryndu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top