Opinions on these please

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AshTay

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I would value some different opinions on these feet please. She is under vet and farrier care (and they speak to each other).
Bit of background: since I bought her she's had tall feet but no soundness issues, foot shape was improving slowly with each trim. Back in October she went lame in one front foot and it was decided it was bruising but x rays revealed reverse pedal rotation on hinds and some drastic trimming was undertaken (previously discussed in another thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=568483). She did come almost sound but suffered thrush and some occassional lameness (which we think was due to stones tracking up the white line - hence the deeper groove on the outside of the off-fore when they were removed). January 1st this year she had laminitis (http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=584931). No rotation. On the basis of the second set of xrays (which I don't have but looked same as the first), the vet instructed farrier to re-balance her fronts based on the new xrays. This is where we are now. She's always been unshod. She's currently on a small (triple-small-hole-netted) soaked haynet overnight and out (on hardly any grass) in the day. Fed a handful of hifi lite and pro hoof. Rising 10 year old Arabian mare. Was last trimmed 2 weeks before these photos. Has had a week of keratex hoof hardener on the sole everyday and now am doing it twice a week.

Off-fore
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Near-fore
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The vet is coming out to her next week for teeth and to check her over again and I'm taking advantage of the Liphook free cushings test offer (Talk About Laminitis). She's been walking out on a hard surface everyday for 10-20 minutes and isn't lame or footy but somedays doesn't seem all that happy about it.

Any comments appreciated - thank you!
 
Back up the toe? There doesn't appear to be any hoof wall at that location right now... :)

If you look you can see that the hoof is wider at the toe and narrower at the heel and looks fairly contracted. The widest part of the hoof lies at the first third of the hoof.

I've never seen an unshod foot like this before so it's very interesting. As you say, horse is sound.

I'd like to see the widest part of the hoof much further back and beefier frog and digital cushion. The heels really need to be sympathetically trimmed to allow more frog contact to the structures get stimulated to grow and beef up. You may think that this will alter pedal bone angle but the digital cushion, once stimulated will support the back of the foot = pedal/navicular area.

Otherwise, the sole looks fairly thick from what I can see. Minor changes will help enormously over time.
 
Does she get walked out on tarmac at all? Im not very good, but they look massively contracted to me - probably to do with the thrush and lack stimulation from varying surfaces. Her frogs are very puny.
Even if it's just inhand walking out on the roads, she would benefit i think. Are u still treating for thrush?
 
You're right that there's no toe! At the moment it seems that the sole is lower than the wall.
I do find it a little disturbing that she's so unusual. I'm going to push my vet about the heels. Although my farrier is considered to be one of the best locally, he's mever seemed that interested in improving her feet. When I first got her and asked what could be done he said "that's just how she is" and he's only done more trimming when vet has requested it based on x rays. He'd also said that if we lowered her heels too much she'd risk tendon injury which makes sense but I've been given no suggestions as to how or if this could be done gradually.
 
here_i_am said:
Does she get walked out on tarmac at all? Im not very good, but they look massively contracted to me - probably to do with the thrush and lack stimulation from varying surfaces. Her frogs are very puny.
Even if it's just inhand walking out on the roads, she would benefit i think. Are u still treating for thrush?
Click to expand...

No, not treating for thrush as I don't believe there is any now. She's being walked out on tarmac every day (well 6/7 nights) for 10 to 20 minutes. But this has only been for a week and a half now so early days. When she was in work last year she was hacked out on the roads lots.
 
Don't worry about sole being proud of the wall, my filly who has never been shod walks mostly on the sole and frog... Shock horror to some people... But actually, that's perfectly natural... The hoof wall isn't meant to bear the whole weight of the horse on its own.

If I have time in the morning I will take a photo to show you.

You need to concentrate on strengthening those heels or what is the caudal area of the hoof as it currently the weakest part of what is otherwise a decent hoof.
 
tallyho! said:
Don't worry about sole being proud of the wall, my filly who has never been shod walks mostly on the sole and frog... Shock horror to some people... But actually, that's perfectly natural... The hoof wall isn't meant to bear the whole weight of the horse on its own.

If I have time in the morning I will take a photo to show you.

You need to concentrate on strengthening those heels or what is the caudal area of the hoof as it currently the weakest part of what is otherwise a decent hoof.
Click to expand...

Photo would be good, thanks!
So strategic trimming around the heels to strengthen them? Should I be concerned about the degree of separation of the hoof wall from the sole down the sides (other than the outer off fore wall because this has been widened to prevent stones going up it again, also a small part of the outer near fore).
 
HAve you any side on photos - They look almost too long so giving a false impression of height. The walls are certainly longer than what I have seen on other photos of other bare feet which might be adding to the separation and others have said those frogs are very small.

Also in the last pic (an one before) looks like what my old mares sole looked like after an abcess and it was all growing down after being dug out - and chance the lameness (and possibly the lammy episode with now rotation) was possibly an abcess as can be very similar symptoms?
 
I can't see much excess hoof wall at all, not even at the heel. I would suspect that if you trimmed the heel it would exacerbate your problems, as that looks like a hoof that is landing toe first to me. That would explain why the foot is so contracted, and why it is more worn at the toe. If you trim the heels to force them to bear more weight, that will just make them more uncomfortable, meaning the horse will be even less inclined to land heel first.

OP, iiwy I would film the horse moving and slow down the footage to analyse the landing. Do you have boots for her? If not it may be worth hiring a pair to see if she moves more comfortably in them. The key here imo is to get her landing correctly - this is what will develop the caudal hoof.
 
TwoStroke said:
I can't see much excess hoof wall at all, not even at the heel. I would suspect that if you trimmed the heel it would exacerbate your problems, as that looks like a hoof that is landing toe first to me. That would explain why the foot is so contracted, and why it is more worn at the toe. If you trim the heels to force them to bear more weight, that will just make them more uncomfortable, meaning the horse will be even less inclined to land heel first.

OP, iiwy I would film the horse moving and slow down the footage to analyse the landing. Do you have boots for her? If not it may be worth hiring a pair to see if she moves more comfortably in them. The key here imo is to get her landing correctly - this is what will develop the caudal hoof.
Click to expand...

This is a really good point OP, if the heels aren't first part of landing, it really could be the root of your issues... if so, it makes one wonder why she won't land heel first...
 
Hmmm...good point. I've not noticed that she lands toe first but haven;t really looked to see that she doesn't. I don't have anything to video on at the moment but will see if anyone else on the yard does. Probably be at the weekend as I'm only up there in the dark at the moment....
 
On another thread, intolerance of alfalfa has been mentioned. Thinking maybe I should try something else to put her prohoof in (I did post about alternatives but then I noticed that if I just left her tea with her she'd eat it eventually, probably when her haynet ran out). Would a small amount of soaked speedibeet be better?
 
Yes it would and you could appetise it by grating some root veg/bit of apple to begin with if nose turns up. Possibly even add some mint.
 
tallyho! said:
Don't worry about sole being proud of the wall, my filly who has never been shod walks mostly on the sole and frog... Shock horror to some people... But actually, that's perfectly natural... The hoof wall isn't meant to bear the whole weight of the horse on its own.

If I have time in the morning I will take a photo to show you.

You need to concentrate on strengthening those heels or what is the caudal area of the hoof as it currently the weakest part of what is otherwise a decent hoof.
Click to expand...

Hi Ashtay,

I said I would post sole shots. Managed to get it done yesterday... in the rain.

These hooves are of a 2yo filly. Hoof conformation typical of wet-weather soft-ground hooves. Still quite upright to follow a 2yo conformation and due a trim (8 weeks) tomorrow!

LF (ignore hole in sole... and slight deviation - she's had a few abscesses)

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RF

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So, what I am trying to illustrate for you is that the sole is actually the main weight bearing area for this filly. Her hoof wall and frog take the weight at the back. Her hooves change angle more frequently than in an adult horse.

At her age, as she is still bum-high, her gait at walk is much different to that of a level adult horse. This will change as she matures. You can see that the structures in the back of her foot are pretty well developed...

photo0283_zps7a1c05c0.jpg


We need to get your horses caudal area stronger :)
 
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Where's your snow?? :)

Thanks for these - I think what I'm supposed to be seeing is that the sole is more prominent than the walls. Would her heels be described as contracted or is that just how 2 year olds heels look? She seems to have as much space between sole and wall as my mare - does she get little stones in it though?

It's been a bit tough with all the snow to try and video my mare walking but I did manage to get her out into the village for a stroll last night and spent some time watching her feet land and I'm pretty sure they're not landing toe first (more the whole foot is landing pretty flat -should I see a definite heel-first landing?). I did used to know a horse with a toe-first action and she certainly isn't walking like that.

I've moved her from the hi fi lite to speedibeet over the weekend and hopefully I can continue the walking out (we've got snow up to the top of my boots in places but miraculously our driveway is ok). I've got the vet coming on Thursday to do her teeth and take bloods for Cushings and will also get them to scrutinise how she's moving again.
 
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