Opinions on Waterford bits? How severe are they?

[Meadow21]

My horse has a awful habit of leaning on the bit and taking off. He normally is well behaved however when He gets excited he leans on my hands or takes hold of the bit and canters a few laps of the school. He is currently ridden in a Pelham so I have more control when he canters off. I have been suggested by a friend to try a Waterford as it is suppose to stop them taking hold of the bit or leaning on it. Do they work?

 

[poiuytrewq]

My daughter used to hunt a horse for someone and they swapped her snaffle as she just grabbed and went to a Waterford. According to daughter it was much better. Not ridden in one myself but she swore by it.

 

[stangs]

As always depends on the rider's hands. But personally not keen on having lots of pressure points in the mouth (though I did know someone who used it and found that it helped). If I were you, I'd be focusing more on why he's taking off with you to begin with?

 

[Meadow21]

As always depends on the rider's hands. But personally not keen on having lots of pressure points in the mouth (though I did know someone who used it and found that it helped). If I were you, I'd be focusing more on why he's taking off with you to begin with?

He takes off because he gets very excited and just wants to go, he doesn’t do this every-time I ride it’s generally when there is jumps out in the school or if there is several horses down with us. Outside of this he is very well behaved. He’s had back checks, vets etc and all clear.

 

[SEL]

I used to ride a little TB who used to set herself against your hands in open fields and tank. A friend recommended a Waterford and it made a huge difference in reminding her of her manners in open spaces.

 

[SBJT]

Honestly if your hands are good then a severe bit is acceptable. But it really depends on your experience and what you or a trainer thinks regarding best for your horse.

I have the same issue with my guy as I’m a (relatively) small woman and he’s a Clyde X. When he wants to tank off there’s nothing I can do, and he will always do it in canter as he’s so excited. When I moved to my current barn my trainer wanted me to move back to a simple loose ring snaffle from a kimberwick. I knew it wouldn’t worm but indulged her. We spent a year fixing some other simple issues but he simply would would not collect (and I have to point out that not one method was harsh). We tried for 4 months doing every trick in the book to get him to accept the bit, I even had a clinic with Dominique Barbier and he wouldn’t collect for him. I was about to call it a day with her when she finally admitted defeat and moved back to a stronger bit. We’ve never had an issue since (as the pressure is only about 4 oz now). We ended up going even more stronger though and she has me in a driving bit, but he likes it. He’s warmed up slowly to accept the contact and he’s given frequent releases while we strengthen his body so that he can hold it for longer.

Some horses just do better in a bigger bit and as long as the rider is educated enough that’s fine. If anyone else rides your horse though, swap back to a simpler bit unless their hands are as good or better than yours.

 

[sbloom]

Many people don't see the Waterford as severe and I'd agree that if your hands are good then it's a useful bit. What you want to avoid is the bit being pulled in either direction by one hand, as well as being hauled on by two of course, but moving the bit ACROSS the tongue is the thing to avoid. If a horse leans and bears down then it's worth trying, in the right hands.

 

[LittleRolo]

I've just put my 14.2hh tank of a Connemara in a universal gag and it's been a revelation! She can work beautifully but she can also set herself and lean. I'm only 5ft 2 (on my tip toes) and have been trying for years to school this away but the fitter she gets the heavier she became when she felt like it.

 

[ihatework]

I think they are a very useful bit, but need to be used mindfully and for the right reasons.

I particularly prefer them with regular snaffle rings or full cheeks. I like direct line of rein pressure in general rather than leverage type cheeks.

The more expensive makes have a little extra room from the ring to the first bobble, to reduce risk of bruising on the bars.

As sbloom indictated you don’t want them pulling through mouth, therefore if you aren’t using a full cheek I’d strongly suggest you use rubber bit rings.

I also generally only advise them in ‘fun’ situations - they are galloping/hunting/Xc type bits.

They transform some horses for the riders. But I think it’s often difficult to differentiate between whether the horses genuinely like the bit, or the fact that it can be so effective at stopping the grabbing and leaning that the horse essentially sits behind the contact - giving the illusion of being light.

The latter is the key reason these are not day to day schooling bits.

 

[vhf]

With the right horse, hands and reasons, they are a good fit and not severe. Though not dressage legal.
I have a mare who only likes a Waterford or bitless, it just seems to be what she prefers in her mouth. but then I am not rough or heavy, and because she goes well in it, I don't need to be. Far better than than hauling on something 'milder' or 'kinder'. I've used it on leaners too, and have sometimes found that once they learn not to do that evasion, the waterford can come off again.

If you are EVER tempted to 'saw' or 'yank' as a control or punishment tool, then it is not a bit to even consider, period.

 

[J_sarahd]

I tried so many jumping/fast work bits on my boy, as well as different schooling exercises. Whilst he is only 13.2, he is so flaming strong and really sets his neck. My trainer suggested a waterford and I was reluctant to try a waterford bit but genuinely, it’s the bit I have found works best for us. It allows me to be quieter yet more direct. As others have said, it’s not a bit you want to be yanking and for us, it was a last resort. I have actually tried to discourage a friend from swapping to a waterford gag because I think it’s too harsh for her pony and she’s a fairly novice rider. (Not saying I’m a fantastic rider by any means!)

 

[TotalMadgeness]

I've used one as a pelham for my IDx who likes to lean. I only use it for hacking (and in the past with 2 reins for showing) and it works nicely for him. I do all his schoolwork in a snaffle though (which he grabs & leans on if you're not working him properly).

 

[Annagain]

My old boy could get very strong in exciting situations. I tried so many bits and a waterford three ring gag with two reins was the only one we could agree on. He was very fussy in his mouth and was generally happiest in a fixed mouthpiece so he was in a mullen mouth hanging cheek snaffle for 95% of his work and was fine in that but when he got excited he lost his head a bit so it wasn't something we could train out of him.

A pelham worked for a while but as he got fitter, I couldn't hold him even in that. He hated anything with a joint, either double or single, but the fluidity of the waterford seemed to suit him, he complained far more about far less 'harsh' bits. I was very aware of my hands with it but found that I could hold him in it really quite easily in it, without him complaining. I had nylon reins on the bottom ring, tied them in knot on his neck and jut picked them up when I needed them.

If it's not a schooling issue, and it's only needed for those moments when his excitement gets the better of his brain, I think a waterford can be a very useful bit in the right hands.

 

[Nudibranch]

I had a CB who was faultless in any situation bar xc, when she would just want to go flat out. Waterford for that, French link with a lozenge for everything else.

I have a Fell x who is similar only in company. Just too exciting. A ported Kimblewick works well for her (she's also a driving pony so perhaps it's the curb) but if it didn't I'd try her in a Waterford.

 

[Cortez]

The Waterford mouthpiece "works" because it hurts. As long as you're OK with that as a control method, then go for it I suppose.

*There are other methods available.

 

[scruffyponies]

The Waterford mouthpiece "works" because it hurts.

I haven't used one myself, but the way I understood it (assuming not sawing as mentioned above) some horses set themselves against a fixed bit, but cannot find a way to 'lean' on something which has multiple joints.
I considered it for my welsh who left me with arms like a gorilla after our first day hunting, and it wasn't because I wanted to hurt him.
Went for a roller snaffle instead, and met him half way in our attempts to not get into a pulling match by trying really hard to ride him up into the bit from the seat as much as possible. Glad to say we both rode better 2nd time out!

 

[irishdraft]

A Waterford gag with a back strap was the only thing I could hold my very strong ID out bloodhounding. He used to grab the bit in his teeth and go, the Waterford stopped him doing this and he was a brilliant respectful hunter in it. I also used avacallo bit guards with it so never got a split mouth .

 

[YorkshireLady]

I am not sure that the waterford is going to hurt anymore than someone having to pull like mad on another supposedly milder bit! in general all bits can hurt!

Agree with others that for fast work etc and xc these can be amazing if a horse leans. I would agree on a non loose ring and non gag version.

 

[Pegasus5531]

I would say like most bits it can either be very useful in the right hands or too severe. As others have said better to have a strong bit and not be hauling on the mouth to try and stop just be cautious and remember that it is a stronger bit and ride accordingly.

 

[teddy_]

IME, nose pressure works in exciting situations.

My Trakehner got incredibly fruity / keen out hunting and I found a combination bit worked wonders for me. It's made by Trust Inno Sense (short shank), with a lovely soft mouthpiece but provided me with some real brakes.

Alternatively, the more cost effective option is something like a Kineton or lever noseband in conjunction with a simple snaffle but, these are severe in unbalanced hands.

 

[Andrew657]

When I first got my previous horse - he was ridden in a waterford for hacking - which I continued at first. The waterford was highly effective. However as when he got excited my hands didn't always give straight away on him coming back to me - I found it was winding him up. So ended up changing to a different (and I believe milder) bit which suited us better.

 

[flying_high]

The Waterford mouthpiece "works" because it hurts. As long as you're OK with that as a control method, then go for it I suppose.

*There are other methods available.

What is you evidence basis for this statement? All bits can cause pain if the horse pull / leans or if the rider has unstable or harsh hands. What is different about the waterford, compared to any other stronger bit, or a snaffle?

 

[Cortez]

What is you evidence basis for this statement? All bits can cause pain if the horse pull / leans or if the rider has unstable or harsh hands. What is different about the waterford, compared to any other stronger bit, or a snaffle?

My evidence, Your Honour, is based upon riding horses in Waterford bits, seeing other people riding horses in Waterford bits, and speaking with other trainers about the effects of Waterford bits. You are correct, any bit can cause pain if the rider hauls at the reins, doesn't release in a timely manner or is just plain unskilled. What is especially disturbing about this type of mouthpiece is that it is designed to make it uncomfortable for the horse to hold, which negates every principle of bit acceptance and communication. It is not alone in the snaffle family in this aspect, more's the pity.

 

[bouncing_ball]

My evidence, Your Honour, is based upon riding horses in Waterford bits, seeing other people riding horses in Waterford bits, and speaking with other trainers about the effects of Waterford bits. You are correct, any bit can cause pain if the rider hauls at the reins, doesn't release in a timely manner or is just plain unskilled. What is especially disturbing about this type of mouthpiece is that it is designed to make it uncomfortable for the horse to hold, which negates every principle of bit acceptance and communication. It is not alone in the snaffle family in this aspect, more's the pity.

I am surprised, as I use a Waterford to hack in open spaces, and I did a fair amount of research before using it.

I discussed it with my trainers and with a professional bit fitting specialist and they thought it was a good option. I had it professionally fitted to my horse.

It clearly isn’t a universally held view by equine professionals that a Waterford bit causes pain. I am fully aware the design is intended to be uncomfortable for horses to lean on.

I have a neue schule £80 waterford where the initial bobbles start further in to make sure they clear the bars. I believe the cheaper designs might not do this.

My horse goes happily in a loose ring snaffle, and is not strong.

However he is a big horse, and not a young horse. And at some point he has learnt the trick out hacking of getting his head down, leaning down hard on the bit and trotting / cantering off.

I have taught other big horses not to do this galloping and to carry themselves, I am not a numpty. However this horse seems to think this is a funny evasion to apply at times, I think he came with this habit entrenched.

Funnily enough he didn’t know how to gallop off as only knew about slow cantering, so being carted with his head down in trot / slow canter was quite funny!

I have since taught him about galloping under saddle, though never yet out of control.

We hack in huge open spaces, that are also quite busy (racehorses, kites, mobile planes, kids, dogs etc.) I need safe control.

It’s not a straightforward schooling issue as he’s working elementary in the school, and it isn’t heavy in the hand in the school.

I think the Waterford works quite well, he travels on a light contact, does faster work on a fairly loose rein, and if he wants to root down it discourages him.

How would you approach this problem?

 

[sbloom]

IME, nose pressure works in exciting situations.

My Trakehner got incredibly fruity / keen out hunting and I found a combination bit worked wonders for me. It's made by Trust Inno Sense (short shank), with a lovely soft mouthpiece but provided me with some real brakes.

Alternatively, the more cost effective option is something like a Kineton or lever noseband in conjunction with a simple snaffle but, these are severe in unbalanced hands.

For my horse I tried a Myler Combi, with a gentle mouthpiece, 04 IIRC) and it was useful for hacking where his ears used to end up up my nose because of tension (I would address this in very different ways now, ie training) but for fast work, beech woods where we used to go for a blatt, he would end up with his head between my knees and pulling like a train. When he managed to sustain this for about a km I went for the Waterford which worked way better. I think it depends HOW they pull, if they pull with head up/level then they're definitely useful.

 

[Cortez]

Interesting that you diferenciate 'uncomfortable' and painful. I am definitely in the "use whatever bit you need to stay in control" camp, and also the any bit will be painful if you misuse it one, but there are limits. Any bit designed to work by being painful is not an option for me however. Without being able to see your horse in action I cannot comment on specific strategies for his training, but in general any problem will ultimately be addressed by training rather than equipment.

*ps I know many dressage horses that are not safe to hack, so that's not really a useful metric.

 

[flying_high]

Interesting that you diferenciate 'uncomfortable' and painful. I am definitely in the "use whatever bit you need to stay in control" camp, and also the any bit will be painful if you misuse it one, but there are limits. Any bit designed to work by being painful is not an option for me however. Without being able to see your horse in action I cannot comment on specific strategies for his training, but in general any problem will ultimately be addressed by training rather than equipment.

*ps I know many dressage horses that are not safe to hack, so that's not really a useful metric.

What I meant re dressage is that he is educated, he can carry himself, work on a light contact, do fluid balanced up and downwards transitions, 10 metre canter circles, simple changes, counter canter, basic lateral work etc. I have competed to BD medium (he hasn’t competed above Elementary). We do inhand work, long reining, double lunging etc. He understands and accepts the contact.

In the year I’ve had him he’s become a pretty seasoned, safe hacking horse in a number of extreme situations. He will hack alone / in front / behind / slow or fast / with others passing / traffic / hazards / extreme weather etc.

I am not sure that more schooling will change the occasional learned response to grab the bit, lean down hard on it, get his head low and tank off. It isn’t a stress response or a panic response. It feels like an I’m having fun response, he does it with a smile on the back of his head!

Maybe better strategies for dealing with it, being faster to raise one hand sharply upwards? Or better at bridging the reins so he leans on himself maybe?

I am not really sure what training would stop a big horse that has learnt he can take over control by bearing down with his head would work?

 

[milliepops]

IME, nose pressure works in exciting situations.

My Trakehner got incredibly fruity / keen out hunting and I found a combination bit worked wonders for me. It's made by Trust Inno Sense (short shank), with a lovely soft mouthpiece but provided me with some real brakes.

Alternatively, the more cost effective option is something like a Kineton or lever noseband in conjunction with a simple snaffle but, these are severe in unbalanced hands.

I used to XC in an kineton with a waterford. if you get one with plenty of adjustment you can decide how quickly you want each to act. it changed my horse from a rude tank when she got fresh into a nippy sports car so i could quickly set her up and then sit quietly and not keep faffing. that horse didn't appreciate curb action for jumping so pelhams, gags etc were out but the nose pressure was effective.

I am not sure i'd want either to be the crutch for riding in the school, in my opinion it's a slightly last resort bit of kit. that said it could be useful if the horse has got into a habit of tanking, with a view to then educating the horse to respond to something less strong.

 

[Cortez]

I used to XC in an kineton with a waterford. if you get one with plenty of adjustment you can decide how quickly you want each to act. it changed my horse from a rude tank when she got fresh into a nippy sports car so i could quickly set her up and then sit quietly and not keep faffing. that horse didn't appreciate curb action for jumping so pelhams, gags etc were out but the nose pressure was effective.

I am not sure i'd want either to be the crutch for riding in the school, in my opinion it's a slightly last resort bit of kit. that said it could be useful if the horse has got into a habit of tanking, with a view to then educating the horse to respond to something less strong.

The kineton noseband works by keeping the bit off the bars of the mouth and transferring the pressure to the nose (as I know you know), and I'm rather a fan of it for kids on very strong ponies, for instance. Snaffles in general are rather a blunt instrument and far from being the kind bit everyone is told they are, when used as "brakes" they transform into pretty brutal blunt instruments, especially the single jointed variety. I would always be of the "train it, don't hurt it" school of thought, but really if it's a matter of safety it's a use whatever works situation I think. But there are places I would go before resorting to a Waterford, which I regard as being in the same family as Magennis, W-mouth, twisted or wire-mouth snaffles (there are worse, but you won't see them in this country, thankfully).

 

[teddy_]

I used to XC in an kineton with a waterford. if you get one with plenty of adjustment you can decide how quickly you want each to act. it changed my horse from a rude tank when she got fresh into a nippy sports car so i could quickly set her up and then sit quietly and not keep faffing. that horse didn't appreciate curb action for jumping so pelhams, gags etc were out but the nose pressure was effective.

I am not sure i'd want either to be the crutch for riding in the school, in my opinion it's a slightly last resort bit of kit. that said it could be useful if the horse has got into a habit of tanking, with a view to then educating the horse to respond to something less strong.

Indeed, I clearly didn't pay enough attention to the original post and overlooked the problem occurring in the arena!

I only used the above mentioned styles of bit / noseband in the most highly charged situations, such as a day out with the Mid-Surrey drag! I also would not advocate usage to simply solve what sounds like a training issue.

But as sbloom noted, unless we understand in exactly what 'way' the horse is pulling, it's hard to advise.

My suggestions were merely what IME works on incredibly strong and onward bound horses.