Options? or not? Wwyd?

Nudibranch

Nudibranch

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The big man was x rayed again last week and the vet sent the neck x rays to Edinburgh for a 2nd opinion. Basically he has some changes to the facet joints at c3/4, 4/5 and 5/6, plus another issue at c2. However they are not glaringly obvious and Edinburgh weren't prepared to say for sure they are significant. It is possible they are just incidental findings and the big man is on the far end of the clumsy but normal scale rather than a wobbler. Personally I still suspect he is a mild wobbler but either way, we still can't be sure. We also have significant changes to the hocks and a pretty serious medial-lateral issue with the right fore. This leg is also currently lame despite a small abscess which burst after poulticing. Nothing showing on x ray so best guess is a sole bruise.
Treatment wise at this stage we are limited to the hocks, and to trying to remedy the front balance. There are further diagnostics available for the neck but I don't really see the point as there would be no treatment as a result.

This horse is 6 and if I am totally honest, I am feeling pretty fed up, having backed him, ridden him on and then having had him out of work since January due to an extensive sole injury behind followed by this mystery front lameness. Vet has suggested a bone scan to check for further issues. I really don't want to go down that route tbh. So my thoughts now are to turn him away for 6-12 months, try and get that foot balanced, and then reevaluate the wobbler symptoms and start medicating the hocks and see how we go. I'm not sure if that's kicking the can down the road though. The other options are give up and pts, given his issues already at the age of 6. Or go down the bone scan, myelogram, steroids, etc, etc, route. This is frankly unappealing as I have a gut feeling we could spend thousands and still have a broken horse. At the end of the day I have a young baby and the big man was only ever supposed to be a hack/fun horse.

So, wwyd?!
 
What does your gut tell you to do? Theres no right or wrong answer with this one. How does he behave on the ground?
 
With that amount wrong at that age I would give up and start again with another horse .
A bone scan would tell you what other nasties are going on in his bones that might make the desision clearer .
It's rotten when they go wrong so young just so disheartening.
 
Depending on your circumstances (having to pay livery, keep him at home etc) I would turn him away for 12 months and then look again. It's amazing how they can heal themselves if the pressure is off
 
I'm sorry, he's too young for all that going on to invest any more time or money or emotion. I would probably have him put to sleep if he was mine. If I really thought the world of him I would turn him away. I definitely would not go for any more diagnostics.
 
Yes, I'm thinking more diagnostics is not the route to go down. As much as anything, I'd rather he didn't have a GA as I think the risk to him is too high. I've had him from a foal so there is a bit of an attachment. He lives at home so cost wise turning away is probably the best option I guess. He's not insured, and they wouldn't be paying out after 4 years of investigation. I'm not sure it'd be the right thing to do even if they did.
 
Will turning him away stop you from getting or riding another horse? Is he in any pain at the field?
 
Very sad for you but I think I would cut my losses. If he's insured get as much checked out while you can then decide.

Rest, I don't think will be the answer because he's been resting most of his life and still has these issues.
 
ok I'vr owned horses for over 40 years different types bred backed schooled sorted other peoples problems, so have a bit of experience here. I have come to the conclusion that horses do not mature until they are 8 years old, indeed a couple of mine have both needed new rugs after their 7th winter including my current big lad, hes a large cob who is part percheron. I've had light weight horses do the same thing. they grow and develop far longer than we previously thought. I wont back now until they are 5 maybe sit on a 4 year old but no more. I digress, so back to this horse belonging to the OP.. If he were mine I would turn away without shoes for at least 12 months, let him settle and rest and find his own balance . If you can find a place probably a sheep farm, with extensive pasture some of it hilly then that would be ideal. when you bring him back into work go very slowly and don't ride or lunge every day every second or third day is best. Best wishes with him hope he comes right for you and that you get to have a lovely life together.
ETA I had problems with my big lad, hock and left/foot issues I don't need to go into detail suffice to say I was advised to have him PTS by several on here after cataloguing the defects. hes now sound as a pound is a lovely hack and a delight to be around. I firmly belive it was all part of a growing ugly duckling stage cant tell you how pleased I am to have stuck with him having thought hed never be rideable .
 
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I think some horses are just never going to be sound and there is little you can do to change matters, his bones are probably not good enough to support his big frame so are giving up before he is really mature, if he were mine I would give up trying to fix him, keep him in the field for as long as he is able to live a comfortable normal life, if he comes sound in 12 months/ 2 years then maybe try again but I would not hold out much hope for any more than a few years of retirement.
If he was insured I am not sure I would do any different, finding out why will probably make little difference to the long term outcome so why put him through it.
 
As you can afford to chuck him in a field and insurance isn't a factor I would turn him away and then re-evaluate in a years time.
 
it wasn't clear from your OP that you'd had 4 years of investigations for the same issue so that insurance wouldn't be paying either. It also read that he had only had X-rays as investigation so far, as such that wouldn't seem a lot to me to make a PTS decision on as they have been inconclusive. If you are fed up and think you are on a hiding to nothing I guess you need to chuck him out and see if anything improves or call it a day. I don't think any option is wrong here, just that you have to be happy with what you go with.
 
We had a young horse with similar changes on cf joints. He was obviously in pain and would rear and buck for no reason , usually on the right rein . He was sporadically lame as well and we had feet and leg x rays done . In the end we turned him away for 9 months on 100 acres. When we brought him back into work he was still slightly lame- he was 7 and we took the heartbreaking decision to PST - he wasn't suitable as a companion and seemed uncomfortable even in the field despite no obvious lameness . It was such a shame but undoubtedly the right decision.
 
I would turn away for a planned year and reassess every so often
If I didn't have access to the land or an ideal place to for him then I would put down,
I certainly wouldn't entertain further tests

Only you can decide and whatever you decide will be the right decision
 
Downton Dame said:
ok I'vr owned horses for over 40 years different types bred backed schooled sorted other peoples problems, so have a bit of experience here. I have come to the conclusion that horses do not mature until they are 8 years old, indeed a couple of mine have both needed new rugs after their 7th winter including my current big lad, hes a large cob who is part percheron. I've had light weight horses do the same thing. they grow and develop far longer than we previously thought. I wont back now until they are 5 maybe sit on a 4 year old but no more. I digress, so back to this horse belonging to the OP.. If he were mine I would turn away without shoes for at least 12 months, let him settle and rest and find his own balance . If you can find a place probably a sheep farm, with extensive pasture some of it hilly then that would be ideal. when you bring him back into work go very slowly and don't ride or lunge every day every second or third day is best. Best wishes with him hope he comes right for you and that you get to have a lovely life together.
ETA I had problems with my big lad, hock and left/foot issues I don't need to go into detail suffice to say I was advised to have him PTS by several on here after cataloguing the defects. hes now sound as a pound is a lovely hack and a delight to be around. I firmly belive it was all part of a growing ugly duckling stage cant tell you how pleased I am to have stuck with him having thought hed never be rideable .
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There's a lot of wisdom here^^ Bigger horses take even longer to mature and can be broken through premature work. They need handling with kid gloves to prevent it. Not sure what breed or height he is but I'm sure he's not finished growing and I don't mean height wise. I had a lovely TB and he strengthened up so much between six and seven, it was incredible and he wasn't that big and the bigger ones take longer.

I would let him off for a year and see what happens especially since you've had him from a foal, he has a lovely nature and it's not costing you anything. Give him a chance to come right - they can surprise you!
 
I would turn him away. Time is something we so rarely give and if you can just do it at home then I would give it a go. I have just had my home bred young horse PTS with kissing spines, so I do understand how gutting it is. Rest was not going to fix my boy but if there is a small chance that it might then at least you could really feel, with a clear conscience, that you have tried everything. I wouldn't investigate or treat. I would give him plenty of time off, then bring him back into work and try to get him fit and at the first lame step would PTS.
It is a poxy place to be in with them, and I am sorry.
 
Good advice from DD...however...this horse wasn't even sat on until he turned 4. He's never set foot in a school, never been lunged, only long reined, and been ridden out in mostly walk over varied terrain (supposedly to develop balance and strength!). He lives out 24/7 on 10 acres of old hilly pasture at the edge of the fell. No shoes. So he's not your stereotypical wb who's lived in, been schooled hard and then broken. As someone else pointed out, he's done so little that turning away will probably make no difference. I guess its worth a try though.

Insurance wise, Ester, he's had 3 sets of x rays, lameness workups, nerve blocks, bute trials, etc since the age of 2 so there'd be so many exclusions by now there's no way they'd pay out. If we'd gone straight to bone scan and so on from day one maybe, but how many people would seriously do that with a 2yo and not give it a chance to grow up a bit?

He has no response to bute and is a calm, friendly boy so I am fairly confident he's not in much pain. I also suspect BP has a point about his size.. he's definitely a throwback as his parents were a hand smaller. Visually he looks spot on, with good bone to support his frame but his skeleton seems to have hidden problems.
 
I think most responses have focused on the neck issues and not the significant changes to the hocks which to me are more indicative of problems throughout his skeleton due to inherent weakness and while the hocks alone may be possible to treat there is every chance that they have become a problem because either his bones/ joints are potentially an issue everywhere or they just are not strong enough to cope when there is something else going on, he is I think a very big horse, from heavy draft breeding which with the best will in the world does not always stand up to work of the type now expected of them.
 
ycbm said:
I'm sorry, he's too young for all that going on to invest any more time or money or emotion. I would probably have him put to sleep if he was mine. If I really thought the world of him I would turn him away. I definitely would not go for any more diagnostics.
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This totally , sad but the truth is your prob on a hiding to nothing :(
 
Really feel for you, difficult situation. I have a youngster who has just broken having done virtually nothing. I have my own land/yard and I like the horse personality wise and nothing conformationally says he should have any issues but he does. I've decided as he's comfortable in the field to give him a full year out and reassess. But I'm lucky to not be on livery and to have others to ride. I'm aware he may never be a robust horse but I'm giving it a go because my situation and the low level of his issue allows me to. I however except he may never be a riding horse. You need to do what's right for you, your horse and your situation. Time can be a great healer and I think there seems to be a lot of vets who just want to get them going for you again asap maybe without considering the long term. I've been very open with my vet that it takes as long as it takes. I hope it works out for you whatever direction you choose
 
Yeah I have to say, I'd definitely be thinking turn away, give everything a chance to settle then re evaluate- and I'd do a full 12 months in a flattish field. If that doesn't fix him at 6 I'm not sure I'd rush into medicating/invasive treatment if theres nothing solidly fixable there.
 
How about this...you medicate the hocks now to see what effect that has on soundness. If it dramatically improves things, turn away whilst getting the front hoof/leg balance corrected and allowing him further time to grow, so that when you bring him back into work you have a fair chance of a sound horse. If medicating the hocks makes no real difference to anything, then give up and PTS now.
 
Nudibranch said:
Yes, I'm thinking more diagnostics is not the route to go down. As much as anything, I'd rather he didn't have a GA as I think the risk to him is too high. I've had him from a foal so there is a bit of an attachment. He lives at home so cost wise turning away is probably the best option I guess. He's not insured, and they wouldn't be paying out after 4 years of investigation. I'm not sure it'd be the right thing to do even if they did.
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I would turn him away and see what happens, with a view to pts if he doesn't come right in whatever time frame you give him. I certainly wouldn't want to give a clumsy horse a GA.
 
Nudibranch said:
Yes, I'm thinking more diagnostics is not the route to go down. As much as anything, I'd rather he didn't have a GA as I think the risk to him is too high. I've had him from a foal so there is a bit of an attachment. He lives at home so cost wise turning away is probably the best option I guess. He's not insured, and they wouldn't be paying out after 4 years of investigation. I'm not sure it'd be the right thing to do even if they did.
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Given you have minimal costs and insurance isn't a factor and you don't feel he's in a lot of pain I'd turn away in a field for the next year or two and then reassess and see where you are. It's an old fashioned thing that works. My mare blew a tendon badly (50% lesion in DDFT) that there was serious concern over whether she would ever be right but she had no cover on insurance so any of the fancier treatments weren't an option. She was turned away that autumn, put in foal the following spring (was pretty much sound by this point) and in total had 2 1/2 years out of any sort of work.
When it was rescanned before we looked at bringing her back into work the vet could only see the tiniest bit of scar tissue on the tendon.

I hope you eventually have a good outcome from this
 
I am going to join in with the majority and say turn out for the year, while making sure his feet are kept in good condition.
I wouldn't spend any money on more investigations and see what happens after the break.
 
Haven't read the whole thread as my phone is being annoying and won't display it right so apologies if it's been said on here already or by you OP....

Can you afford to get another horse if you turn him away for a year? I know the costs will be smaller with a horse that's turned away but he will come back at some point and that's not to say he won't cost anything in the field where all manner of things can happen. If the answer is yes, you can afford another to enjoy/hack in the meantime, be it a horse on loan, then I'd say turn him away and judge this next year. If not then I'd be inclined to PTS, I'm sorry.

What a horrible situation to be in, but I agree with you and with the others not to put more money into further diagnostics.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.
 
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