Our Progress At Rockley Farm..

Geminismum

Geminismum

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Thought I'd share an update of my girl at Rockley. I think it's really interesting and may help others despairing with their horses diagnosis find hope. Gem was referred after being diagnosed via MRI with moderate navicular disease, suspensory and collateral ligament damage in Nov and had been 2/3 lame for 8 months prior. Needless to say I was absolutely devastated!
The vets at Leahurst strongly recommended remedial shoes (heart bars & wedges) but after weighing up our options we decided continue barefoot (She's never been shod) and she went to Rockley in Feb and is due to come home tomorrow. We've still got a way to go and her hoof is still changing so I know we've got more to do when she gets home but I think it's amazing how quickly she's improved and am over the moon with her progress.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/the-benefits-of-bare-hoof-geminis-12.html
 
That's the second barefoot horse given that recommendation by Leahurst that I know of who was helped by rockley. I wonder when they are going to wake up and smell the coffee, since the vast majority of the horses for which they prescribe remedial shoeing for those kind of problems never do full work again.

You'd think after all this time and Rockleys astonishing results curing horses that they and other horse hospitals could not help, that they'd be looking at doing some research, wouldn't you?

So pleased for your mare and you. With the angle changes she has got, you have every chance of her running and jumping at next year's RRR. Great news :)
 
cptrayes said:
That's the second barefoot horse given that recommendation by Leahurst that I know of who was helped by rockley. I wonder when they are going to wake up and smell the coffee, since the vast majority of the horses for which they prescribe remedial shoeing for those kind of problems never do full work again.

You'd think after all this time and Rockleys astonishing results curing horses that they and other horse hospitals could not help, that they'd be looking at doing some research, wouldn't you?

So pleased for your mare and you. With the angle changes she has got, you have every chance of her running and jumping at next year's RRR. Great news :)
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Yes it is so infuriating and don't get me started on Petplan! I guess I'm lucky that my vet agreed to refer as my barefoot friend had a row with one of the vets at the same practice that told her she was "cruel" for taking her horses shoes off! The attitude really was that it won't help but won't do any harm. My plan is to get her MRI'd in the next few weeks so that we can compare before and after.

Thank you everyone. I Will put an update on here when I have one.
 
Hi, I am wondering if you feel that there was any particuar reason why Gem got these issues in the first place, and as she now has "new feet" how will you keep progressing when she comes home. I mean do you have a "new management plan"?
Its briliant that you are getting a follow up MRI, which is scientific evidence which is needed to try and kick start the scientific community.
 
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Geminismum said:
Yes it is so infuriating and don't get me started on Petplan! I guess I'm lucky that my vet agreed to refer as my barefoot friend had a row with one of the vets at the same practice that told her she was "cruel" for taking her horses shoes off! .
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If the vet was saying that owner was cruel, was he prepared to go to court? that is quite unbelievable language by a professional.
The things vets do to horses, just because they can !
PS I hope the horse concerned managed barefoot btw!
 
MrsD123 said:
Hi, I am wondering if you feel that there was any particuar reason why Gem got these issues in the first place, and as she now has "new feet" how will you keep progressing when she comes home. I mean do you have a "new management plan"?
Its briliant that you are getting a follow up MRI, which is scientific evidence which is needed to try and kick start the scientific community.
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I think there are a number of contributing factors that led to Gems issues in the first place. I bought her as a two year and she'd spent her time in a herd on the side of a massive hill (obviously she was sound when I bought her) I backed her at 3 which in hindsight and knowing what I know now I would have left her until she was at least 4 (although she wasn't doing a lot) she is pigeon toed slightly in front right and developed a flare which I believe was regularly trimmed off (again, now something which I wouldn't allow) and her feet did get long at one point because my trimmer didn't do her and didn't tell me. This was the point at which she went lame but I do believe the rest all contributed and had she been trimmed I still believe that she would have gone lame at some point.

Gems issues are different to a lot of barefoot horses as she's never been footy. Her lameness is kind of mechanical caused by humans (and I include myself in that!)

Management when she come home will be based around changes to her diet and exercise; she's on lots of different supplements to encourage strong feet but more importantly she'll be doing lots of work over different surfaces. I've always hacked with her once a week (in hand before she was backed) and then done light work in the school a couple of times a week. In our new regime Gem will be hacking at least 4 times a week on the road and tracks and she'll be ridden in the school/ field once or twice a week also. The ideal scenario is that from this work her feet will be self trimming and won't need human intervention. Although, this is something that I need to adjust to as on one hand I don't want her trimmed unless absolutely necessary but on the other it does feel quite uncomfortable not to have her trimmed (because all horses are trimmed/ shod regularly, right.?..)
 
MrsD123 said:
If the vet was saying that owner was cruel, was he prepared to go to court? that is quite unbelievable language by a professional.
The things vets do to horses, just because they can !
PS I hope the horse concerned managed barefoot btw!
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Luckily my friend is an experienced knowledgeable owner that know what's best for her horse. He has been happily barefoot for over 4 years now and recovered from the tear to his collateral ligament barefoot also. Said vet did acknowledge that his owner was infact right and apologised after seeing his follow up MRI...!
 
Geminismum said:
. In our new regime Gem will be hacking at least 4 times a week on the road and tracks and she'll be ridden in the school/ field once or twice a week also. The ideal scenario is that from this work her feet will be self trimming and won't need human intervention. Although, this is something that I need to adjust to as on one hand I don't want her trimmed unless absolutely necessary but on the other it does feel quite uncomfortable not to have her trimmed (because all horses are trimmed/ shod regularly, right.?..)
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Once I got my boy self trimming I never needed a farrier, as it happened I knew three farriers who came to the yard, one was inclined to the formal "pasture trim" which gave him "perfect hoof shape" , but meant he felt unbalanced [when ridden] for a few days on his "squinty foot". The other was sympathetic and he was level before and after trimming. and this was really just a tidy up.
After a couple of months he never needed a farrier again, well not when I looked after him [long story]. He could do any amount of hacking on smooth tarmac, three hours per week ensured he was self trimming. I don't know that he ever got fully rock crunching, but I let him select his own route up any difficult paths. He was a total wimp type [about everything], and did OK on rougher tracks if I was in a hurry! The tarmac road I used a lot had sharp gravel on it, he could feel this, but not to point of limping, we just avoided the worse of it.
I used my farriers rasp every two weeks to round off edges and check levels on sole. A formal inspection in addition to regular daily inspection by eye and by ear [mine]
I kept him in a few hours if grass lush and he was putting weight on, I tried him on the tracks but he broke down the gate [ tied with string] to get in to the lush field.
There was no way I could persuade people that it is natural to keep a horse in that way, they thought that "not hosing legs in winter" was a step too far!
 
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I wish 3 hours a week would get Frank self-trimming! I think it is interesting how much already barefoot horses can change with Nic.

Had an interesting chat with the physio last week re. people not realising how much circles are hard work for horses and often cause a lot of issues. F is a bit aged now anyway but I tend to hack 3/4 times a week, school once and maybe lunge once and if I do any extra it is a hack not school - I've had to be quite strict with myself though as it is the first time in the 9 years I have him that we've had a school.
 
ester said:
I wish 3 hours a week would get Frank self-trimming! I think it is interesting how much already barefoot horses can change with Nic.

Had an interesting chat with the physio last week re. people not realising how much circles are hard work for horses and often cause a lot of issues. F is a bit aged now anyway but I tend to hack 3/4 times a week, school once and maybe lunge once and if I do any extra it is a hack not school - I've had to be quite strict with myself though as it is the first time in the 9 years I have him that we've had a school.
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This is one of the things that I've tried to be very careful about with my boy - he is becoming a bit of a pro loose schooling and doing a spot of polework by himself - trying to avoid lunging - and is working nicely in the school that way a couple of times a week, and going for in hand walks on the road! His hocks are apparently arthritic according to the vet but judging by some of the crazy flexion he is managing he isn't too bothered!
 
Geminismum said:
The vets at Leahurst strongly recommended remedial shoes (heart bars & wedges) but after weighing up our options we decided continue barefoot (She's never been shod).
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I had exactly the same experience. I ignored them and did my own thing. I'd never ever have remedial shoeing now but the rest of the horse world is yet to catch up with this thinking.
 
I was also told by me vet to have Paddy in remedial shoes, failing that to have him de nerved - I told him that I would be doing neither (he wasn't very happy, but I had done my research) and took his shoes off & he went to Rockley in March 2012. When he was there we found that he also had kissing spines so I was a bit stuck with doing the milage he needed. He was operated on when he came back from Rockley & as soon as I could walk him in hand we built it up slowly, but all in all I have walked miles with him in hand - not always easy with a daft TB. Started doing ridden work in January of this year and we have now been jumping, done a 20 mile pleasure ride, a couple of training rides and completed a 20 mile competitive ride (all in trot & canter or you don't achieve the required speed). Since dec 2012 he has only been trimmed once & that was last week, just to bevel a very small amount off the edges of his feet to tidy them up a bit. Farrier was amazed that he did not need anything else taken off or that he hadn't been trimmed in 16 months!!
I hack him as much as possible, school him a couple of times a week & don't lunge him - if I want to do this type of thing I long rein him to avoid tight circles.
It certainly seems to be working so far :-)
 
Busybusybusy said:
I was also told by me vet to have Paddy in remedial shoes, failing that to have him de nerved - I told him that I would be doing neither (he wasn't very happy, but I had done my research) and took his shoes off & he went to Rockley in March 2012. When he was there we found that he also had kissing spines so I was a bit stuck with doing the milage he needed. He was operated on when he came back from Rockley & as soon as I could walk him in hand we built it up slowly, but all in all I have walked miles with him in hand - not always easy with a daft TB. Started doing ridden work in January of this year and we have now been jumping, done a 20 mile pleasure ride, a couple of training rides and completed a 20 mile competitive ride (all in trot & canter or you don't achieve the required speed). Since dec 2012 he has only been trimmed once & that was last week, just to bevel a very small amount off the edges of his feet to tidy them up a bit. Farrier was amazed that he did not need anything else taken off or that he hadn't been trimmed in 16 months!!
I hack him as much as possible, school him a couple of times a week & don't lunge him - if I want to do this type of thing I long rein him to avoid tight circles.
It certainly seems to be working so far :-)
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Good for you, it takes a lot of bottle to ask for veterinary advice and then do the opposite, but as you say you knew what you were doing, and you and you horse are in a good place :).
Did your vet ever look at Rockley in depth, I can understand farriers not wanting to lose good customers AND all their training is based on traditional methods, but in my mind the veterinary profession is quick to latch on to hi tech [and expensive] procedures. But they are still in blinkers when it comes to "holistic" methods.
 
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Mine came back from Rockley in December and is back to the level of work he was doing before his enforced rest. What I am finding amazing is that he is putting on muscle now where I could never get it before - I don't feel I am riding different but he feels so much happier to work. My vet didn't want to refer me either so I was a bit sneaky and literally jumped on the new vet and hey presto one referral :) I don't know if they are sending anymore horses but I do keep them up to date with how he is doing. He does a couple of long hacks twice a week school three days but normally wiith a quick warm up/down round the block and one lunge session which seems to be a good balance for him to keep the ginger moments in check :) Mine has seen a trimmer once as we were having a couple of issues with footiness (turned out to be thrus which she gave me some great tips on ) but she didn't remove anything and touch wood he seems to be self trimming and doing incredibly well on a diet which is so simple (and a hell of a lot cheaper to what I was feeding ) best thing that ever happened to me and my horse
 
cptrayes said:
That's the second barefoot horse given that recommendation by Leahurst that I know of who was helped by rockley. I wonder when they are going to wake up and smell the coffee, since the vast majority of the horses for which they prescribe remedial shoeing for those kind of problems never do full work again.
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I'm sorry to say but I cannot see any profit margin for vets in "take it's shoes off (or not in this case) revise the diet, and get it to walk to restore it's feet"
surely there would be more money in more scans, Xrays, heart bars, egg bars, wedges etc?

Coffee OTOH is a good idea.
 
paddy555 said:
I'm sorry to say but I cannot see any profit margin for vets in "take it's shoes off (or not in this case) revise the diet, and get it to walk to restore it's feet"
surely there would be more money in more scans, Xrays, heart bars, egg bars, wedges etc?

Coffee OTOH is a good idea.
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It's also not what they (or farriers for that matter) are taught as far as I can see.
Medical model V holistic, horse centred model with little emphasis on prevention!
 
amandap said:
It's also not what they (or farriers for that matter) are taught as far as I can see.
Medical model V holistic, horse centred model with little emphasis on prevention!
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I wasn't taught any of this either but I've educated myself. I grew up in an age of shoe everything and box rest and remedial farrriery being the answer to every problem. My heart bleeds now for what I've done with horses in the past, who were crying out for help and I was doing what I believed at the time to be the very best thing for them. I think vets, farriers etc have a duty of care to understand more about this direction.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I wasn't taught any of this either but I've educated myself. I grew up in an age of shoe everything and box rest and remedial farrriery being the answer to every problem. My heart bleeds now for what I've done with horses in the past, who were crying out for help and I was doing what I believed at the time to be the very best thing for them. I think vets, farriers etc have a duty of care to understand more about this direction.
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I do agree but the horseworld is very reluctant to change from traditional ways of thinking. Horses are tools and keeping them going is the focus. Imho this leads to a crisis management scenario rather than prevetion and seeing and acting on potential problems earlier.
It's also hard to be taught things at Uni and then have to try and see how a fundamentally different approach could possibly have benefits. I wonder if it's easier for us owners, not trained as Vets etc. to see things completely differently?

When you critique horse keeping from the horses' pov it often isn't very horse friendly, it's human friendly!
 
I think owners, vets and insurance are all a bit to blame for trying to get a horse back in work as quickly as possible - and I don't think that's always because the owner wants to ride, you just want them to feel ok again.
 
If anyone is interested and can cope with the way the 1880 articles are written, this is a very interesting read. It is worth persevering, lots of what is now thought in modern BF thinking is in there!
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Horses_and_roads

Forgot to say, great progress op. Sorry for digressing.

ps. Yes I agree ester many owners just want their horse to feel and be better and vets are confronted with a distressed owner and sore horse.
 
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MrsD123 said:
Did your vet ever look at Rockley in depth, I can understand farriers not wanting to lose good customers AND all their training is based on traditional methods, but in my mind the veterinary profession is quick to latch on to hi tech [and expensive] procedures. But they are still in blinkers when it comes to "holistic" methods.
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When I first broached the subject re barefoot with him he vehemently said no way! The next time I armed myself with more information & then rang Nic whilst he was with me - she managed to work her charm & he referred Paddy, I think he remained sceptical, but said it wouldn't do any harm. He left the practice just before Paddy went to Rockley so I haven't been able to update him on Paddy's progress.
 
My other option from Leahurst if remedial shoeing was not successful was to de nerve. De nerve a 3 year old..?!! WTF?! From the conversations I had at Leahurst I struggled to get them to understand that I wasn't trying to get Gem sound to compete, or for a competition. I had no restrictions in terms of time so was willing for it to take as long as it took for her to be fixed (not just sound) and not for the problem to be masked with remedial shoeing. I guess vets have a lot of owners who just want the horse sound ASAP..?
 
Great that Gem has done so well and is home already. Wow time flies. Enjoy having her home and best of luck with her on going improvement. Rockley Farm is the best!
 
PoppyAnderson said:
I wasn't taught any of this either but I've educated myself. I grew up in an age of shoe everything and box rest and remedial farrriery being the answer to every problem. My heart bleeds now for what I've done with horses in the past, who were crying out for help and I was doing what I believed at the time to be the very best thing for them. I think vets, farriers etc have a duty of care to understand more about this direction.
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Spot on. Well written, thank you that really sums it up.
 
I find this both interesting and encouraging reading. My ginger beastie went off to Rockley last week with a history of intermittent lameness, sidebone diagnosis (and I have to say not a right lot else to see on x-ray or MRI so I guess it was a case of this is the only thing we can find wrong thus this must be the cause of all this!), months of remedial farriery and an intense dislike of farriers (resulting in a few minor injuries on both sides, a few boxing matches and more than one shoe going flying through the air). Oh yeah and when I bought him his prev owner warned me he couldn't cope without front shoes. So obviously the bit I find encouraging is the abundance of success stories (fingers crossed we get to be one of them). The decision to send him was one that I toyed with for several months before another bout of lameness sorta made my mind up. I was prepared for long, tedious battles with the vet and the farrier to get them onside with this plan so was actually quite surprised when neither had any objection. Ok so my vet wasn't what you'd call enthusiastic and did lecture me not to pin all my hopes on it working but compared to what a lot of people seem to experience seems I got off very lightly so I guess as with all things it depends on your vet and your farrier as was pleasantly surprised at how open to suggestions mine were.
 
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