Outline and contact troubles

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Nuraya112

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I was wondering if anyone can help
(Sorry about the essay)

I am feeling quite disheartened at the moment :(

I have a 6 year old american paint horse (basically a coloured quarter horse) who I have produced myself from a completely wild and problematic 3yo he has been under saddle for 2 and a bit years now.

He was broken to ride at 4, and I have taken it slowly due to his issues, we started competing June last year as a 5yo going out to just a handful of Dressage's, and then really cracked on this year since January and he is showing promising, he has the most fantastic temperament and wants to consistently please, he has the movement, the looks, and thrives on learning, and picks up new things easy.

But heres the problem, One of the main things we seem to struggle with is getting an outline, any sort of an outline mind, unless its on a really long rein and even then its not consistent enough :(

I have weekly lessons with a very good instructor, shes old school but is the type that isn't that fussed about the outline, and that, that should come when it comes, I get nice parts of it in my lessons but its never consistent.
My boy is worked 6 days a week, with a mix of schooling, pole exercises, hacking, and free lunging, I like to mix it up to keep it interesting, he is very fit and has all the muscles in the right places i.e a huge sloping bum and powerful hindquarters, a huge neck that is rock solid muscle, he is built like an athlete, so he should find it really easy to go in an outline, he is fit, and healthy, up to date with back teeth etc...

I know a bit about this breed and that they are naturally built to go in a long and low outline, as soon as i walk he wants to put his head to the floor, and he will go around like that all day, so I guess the whole outline thing my boy may find harder than say a warmblood (the only reason I have this breed is I love their cool calm temperament and attitude!),
But even on a long contact I still cant keep that outline, he just seems to really start gnawing at the bit when he wants to stretch down and he loses it or he starts leaning on my hands and pulling me down as his neck starts aching.

When riding him I do lots of loosening up and stretching, and I give him plenty of breaks, when I can tell his neck is getting is tired. He really try's for me I cannot fault him in dressage he is super, like the border collie of the horse world! but the whole outline issue is causing us to lose lots of marks in our dressage tests, and we are getting to the stage now where we need those extra marks as we always come in at the bottom now that we are competing at novice level, he finds the movements easy! Its just the outline!
We are averaging around 58-60% at the moment, but the comments are always about consistent contact and outline and have been for a good few months now.

Has anyone got any tips or exercises that might help me and my boy, to keep a consistent contact and maybe help to bring his head up a bit to?

I know he will never have an outline like a warmblood as he is not a warmblood, but I'll be happy with any outline even if it is a bit on the longer side, as long as its consistent 👍🏻

I did wonder about lunging on a line in a training aid like a harbridge, or pessoa once or twice a week?

I just feel at a bit of a loss at the moment, I did have a warmblood who had it all for dressage except the brain! Hence I have my boy now but its like I'm stuck in a deep rut thats just getting deeper, I compete most weekends so we keep in the swing of things but its just the same situation every time :(

Any tips, schooling exercises or advice would be greatly appreciated, am happy to provide photos of my boy if needs be,

Thanks in advance
 
The "outline" isn't about the front end, except as regards relaxation of the jaw - I'm presuming you have achieved that, if not, teach it from the ground by pressure and release.
Outline is about the hind end and engagement - if you have that biomechanics mean that he has no choice but to drop his head from the poll. Does your instructor use transitions, circles, shoulder in, shoulder in on a circle to ensure he is stepping under? If you look at pictures of classical dressage riders they are often showing loose reins, which evidences that it comes from behind the saddle - most of them are as engaged as it is possible to get
 
I agree with the post above and your instructor who says don't force it but 2 things jump out from your post that are worth looking at, the first is that having rock solid muscles at this stage of his life is not helping, he cannot be soft and flexible if his neck is hard with muscle that is probably (as he is not working correctly to have built it up through work) in the wrong place so will be a hindrance not an advantage, if I get anything in with a solid neck my first plan is to find a way to reduce and soften it.

The second is that he is a paint horse which would make me immediately think of PSSM as he is of breeding that it is prevalent in so I would want to look into that as a cause of his issues with consistency, the PSSM mare here was rock solid in her bum muscles and also her neck tended to get rather hard which until I looked into PSSM I though was just a sign of her getting too fat, now she is on the correct diet she is far more consistent in her work and all her muscles have softened but have also built up more correctly from work rather than from holding herself rigid.
 
Sorry if I've missed what you've said, but is this more of a wanting to go long and low rather than a poking nose issue?

Are you able to pick him up into a contact for a short while before he starts leaning?

What worked for my very thick set cob who is prone to sight seeing was spending my sessions and hacks moving through a variety of frames. I watched a Carl Hester demo with some youngsters and he does this, basically being able to move them long and low, then pick them up, then long and low again. I don't know much about your breed of horse, but obviously conformationally he may struggle. My friend had a quarter horse and it was built so downhill that it was wonder it didn't forwards roll. Amazing hind end on it though! I think it's important to remember that every type of horse will have a slightly different variant on the correct contact for them.

If your horse manages it for a while and get starts to lean, this would make me think he's not actually carrying himself properly from the start and as soon as his neck muscles tire, you get the whole head in your hands. Very difficult to offer advice without watching you and him in action, but some things I've used with reluctant contact seekers are- transitions, both direct and within the pace, lateral work into forwards transtions, so a few strides of leg yield to engage quarters and then step up into trot or canter.
 
Does he work correctly from behind? I'm assuming so as you said he is building good muscle. Most horse 'naturally' fall into an outline when working correctly, but it sounds like that's not natural for him and his confirmation. Could you try another instructor, just to see what they say? What is he like on the lunge with two reins, will he drop easier then?

I had a big polish import who would only ever work properly if he had been hacked out first, had a canter and a jolly, then would work lovely and you would barely believe it was the same horse! I tried to fight him into schooling from the off but then gave up as I was wasting my time.
 
Thank you for replying on my post :)

I'd say a mixture of both, unless I ride him near enough at the end of the buckle he will poke his nose, but for dressage this would be considered really overbent, so its a case of trying to bring him up even if it's just a bit without him poking his nose like he is doing.
When I free lunge him he will do an amazing trot and stretch his neck down naturally, his paces are fantastic and he really lifts his hind legs and floats on the front end,
Conformation wise, I wouldn't actually say his one of the really downhill types of ones, as I know some are really downhill like you say, he is bred from reining bloodlines, but overall if you look at him he seems all in proportion and not really that downhill at all,
I've tried all the tricks I would on a warmblood but they just don't seem to work on him, so thought I'd ask on here to see if anyone had any other things I could try as im always open to new ideas and exercises,

He is very thick set like your cob, so I will definitely give the transitions, and leg yielding a go, I am willing to try anything that might help us, we seem to get parts of an outline, but it will only be parts never a consistent outline, so I will let you know how we get on :)
 
Yes I would say he is working through correctly from behind as he wouldn’t have the muscle like he does, and I always make sure he is working and thinking forwards, he has improved so much from when he was first broken in, as if you tried to get more impulsion he would start skipping into a lope (a really slow western canter) and everyone would think he was lame! But it was just a fact he found it easier to do that than to have more impulsion, we thankfully overcome that ages ago thank god!

His length of step has improved hugely, he really uses his hind end now which he never used to before, and he also does medium and extended trot something I never thought I would ever be able to do with him, so the hind end seems to be working, which is why I can't understand why we have so much trouble with the front, unless the head is on the floor
My instructor did say with his conformation and the muscle he has now he should find it really easy and almost natural as he has the shape for it, unless it’s something I am doing wrong? I am soft with my hands and completely understand the outline comes from behind, but it just doesn’t seem to be working x
 
You have said yourself that the horse is not built to carry himself in a dressage-y outline. He will find it well nigh impossible to work up through the wither and asking him to continually fight his conformation is not going to lead to a happy horse. The problem, however, sounds more like a contact issue, and that has a lot more to do with training than biomechanics.
 
I think you need to give some consideration to why we ask horses to work in an outline, for the amateur it is mostly to keep them healthy and well able to carry a rider without injury, not because it looks prettier. As such I think you need to take a good long look at the horse in front of you to decide what is best for him, because if he is built like a western pleasure horse it's just going to be a struggle and probably counter productive.
 
In my lessons we use circles of various sizes, half volts, volts, extensions of the paces, serpentines, turn on the forehand, and we seem to get the outline for parts of the lesson but its always on a reeeeeally long contact, if I shorten it even gradually he just pokes his nose and resists, and I really make sure he is working through from behind
It seems the hind end works and the head just goes down but to the floor and I mean literally to the floor, rather than to a decent contact, I do, do groundwork sessions with him once a week so can give what you said a go x
 
I completely understand what your saying, but this is something I already did long ago, and was something I considered and thought through when I first brought him, his not built like a western pleasure horse at all, he is from reining bloodlines so would be naturally be built to round up cattle, doing the sliding stops and spins, he is not a western pleasure type, and he is not downhill like a lot of this breed are, and has found everything else pretty easy so far, and I would never put him through anything that was uncomfortable or would hurt him, plus he is the sort of horse that is so sensitive if he didn’t like what he was doing he’d of told me long ago that’s for sure, he enjoys his work and what his doing, and of course we will encounter blips along the way, hence I asked on here 
I will see if I can add a photo of him as he does not look like a paint horse everyone either assumes his a warmblood in the ring or a cob if his standing, if he wasn’t happy doing dressage I would stop that’s for sure as my horses happiness and welfare is more important :)
 
I completely understand where your coming from
He is definitely not unhappy, he enjoys his work and is the sort of horse if he was unhappy he’d of certainly told me long ago as he is very sensitive,
If anything he is really keen to get going, he absolutely loves dressage and thrives off of it, can’t wait to have his bridle on in fact, he grabs hold of the reins, if I don’t give him the bit! When I free lunge him he uses some of the things I’ve taught him to his advantage! I would never in a million years do anything that made him uncomfortable or unhappy,
However im willing to try things to see if it helps to bring his head up a bit and into a shorter contact rather than to the floor if I can, if it works however, and he is unhappy and does start saying no then I know where I stand but I have to at least try, as you can understand, there was no harm in trying something :)
 
I just wanted to thank everyone for their help on my post, as with some of the exercises suggest, we now have a very consistent outline so thank you everyone! this is what this forum is about helping each other :D
 
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