Outline. Is there ever an argument for doing it 'backwards''?

H

Hedge_pig

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 March 2007
Messages
390
Visit site
I've been pondering this for a little while. As with the majority of you I'm guessing, I've always been taught that to get a correct outline you need to get the engine working from behind, then pick up a contact and ask them so soften and stretch over their backs.

When I first started riding my share horse, I never picked up a contact as no matter what I did I couldn't get her to a point where I thought she was working well enough from behind (stubborn, 21 year old mare and unfit me).

When I spoke to her owner about it she suggested I pick up a strong contact straight away, and when I dubiously did as I was told, lo and behold she picked up the pace and dropped into a reasonable outline, albeit clamped onto the bit with a death grip.

I've been working on softening up the contact since as I don't like the feeling that I'm holding a horses head up (not to mention what it does to their poor mouths :(), but I just wondered if there is ever an argument for getting an outline the 'backwards' way, as appeared to work for this horse, or is this a training issue that needs to be ironed out?
 
i have to do this with my big old lad (22) he is a large hunter /cob type 16'3hh ex masters hunter , he is very much an on the forehand horse if you ride him the "right " way he just plows on to his forehand and tanks because that is what he has always done the only way i can get him to work and soften is to "haul" in the front then ride up to that , (very hard work ) but it does work and he does lighten and go beautifully
 
Wow, big question! I think to train any horse you need the biggest bag of tricks known to man as all horses are different shapes, seizes and brains - and no one size fits all!

We get in 3 very different BHSI's to my yard and they would never agree on the same method, but I take a little from each and work out which thing fits each horse and experiment until we click.

Trial and error and very good trainers is the way forward.
 
With Reg, they do it backwards to an extent- the long and low stuff doesn't work until he's engaged. So once he's moving freely, Al takes a firm (not hard, it's with soft hands) contact and asks him to work into it, and off they go.

I don't have any videos of him in a lesson annoyingly, but he has never looked better with correct musculature and his back problems seem to have all but vanished...
 
Well there's the ideal way and there's what works with this horse! I spent a long time trying to get my schoolmaster TB into an outline, whereas my daughter got it straightaway. I felt completely useless until she said, just tell him what you want and don't give until you get it, hallelujah he just said OK. after that we never looked back. He's taught a lot of inexperienced riders since then and they are horrified when I say " tell him what you want and don't give until he gives to you" but it works every time. It feels wrong but he's an experienced horse taking the mick. I'm sure I'm going to get a load of flack for saying this but sometimes you do have to be quite strong as long as you give as soon as the horse gives to you.
 
I think the problem is people's mis-interpretation of 'forward' where they think it means the horse has to be powering off almost into a medium pace. A piaffe can be forward, and yet it is a collected pace. Once you understand the subtlety of having the horse working from behind but that not necessarily meaning pace, you understand how to put it all together as one so that when you warm the horse up you get it forward, off the seat and leg in your warm up and then ask it to work in the frame that you want. The contact is no different be it on a baby horse or an established horse- it's the same feel down the reins, it's the frame that varies as you strengthen its muscles.
 
No, although we have got there since, but it was the forwardness I got when picking up the contact rather than the contact itself that surprised me.

TheMule, I know what you mean regarding the difference between speed and impulsion, but by 'picked up the pace' I didn't mean sped up, prior to picking up the contact she was behind the leg no matter what I tried. Once I had a contact although the speed didn't increase vastly there was a definite engagement behind that I didn't have before, and a feeling of settling into work rather than sloping along.
 
oldie48 said:
Well there's the ideal way and there's what works with this horse! I spent a long time trying to get my schoolmaster TB into an outline, whereas my daughter got it straightaway. I felt completely useless until she said, just tell him what you want and don't give until you get it, hallelujah he just said OK. after that we never looked back. He's taught a lot of inexperienced riders since then and they are horrified when I say " tell him what you want and don't give until he gives to you" but it works every time. It feels wrong but he's an experienced horse taking the mick. I'm sure I'm going to get a load of flack for saying this but sometimes you do have to be quite strong as long as you give as soon as the horse gives to you.
Click to expand...
Actually, I'd say this is closer to "correct" than the "go forwards and then connect" school of thought as it seems to be practised by many. You have to offer the horse a contact in order for it to, in fact, connect.
 
Cortez said:
Actually, I'd say this is closer to "correct" than the "go forwards and then connect" school of thought as it seems to be practised by many. You have to offer the horse a contact in order for it to, in fact, connect.
Click to expand...

Thank you :D
 
It's interesting seeing people's responses here as a few weeks ago someone asked a question regarding achieving an outline and posters responded saying that the front end should never be picked up until the back end was engaged. It's nice to know there is more than one way to skin this particular cat.

It's also interesting that people interpret an 'outline' as being the horse pulled into a certain frame. My understanding has always been that when referring to outline you are talking about the natural way and correct way a horse goes when working through from behind into the hand, rather that a perfect frame as such (which is often not so perfect when you look at it closely). You can tell straight away if a horse has been pulled into an 'outline' rather than working into what I would consider a proper outline, and this wasn't what I was referring to.
 
Actually I don't think you can always "tell straight away"; you'd be amazed at how awful a lot of flashy looking dressage horses are to ride.
 
It is hard to always interpret peoples views but I always feel that the engine needs to be engaged and encouraged into a receiving hand, if the hand is not there to contain the energy the horse will not be able to become fully active and thus gain a degree of self carriage, the degree depends on the level of training and how much weight they can carry behind, a young horse will be on its forehand generally and rely on the rider for some support.
I ride one horse that if not picked up will happily plod along doing as little as he can get away with yet he is light in the hand, works uphill and is in good self carriage in all paces, he is just totally lazy and will drop behind the leg if he thinks he can get away with it, once he is up and working he is a great ride it is just getting his mind on the job that is hard.
 
There's also the safety argument. Sometimes its best for everyone to just put the horse's head in the right place for concentration and control's sake, then worry about other stuff.
 
Sorry Cortez, I should have qualified that a little better, what I meant was that when I've ridden horses that have been pulled in that way they tuck their heads in prettily but you can tell by their neck they aren't breaking at the poll but halfway down the neck, there is often a bulge there where the muscle has developed incorrectly. They will happily let their back end trail out behind them, because the focus has been on tucking the head in, this was what I was referring to.

Sadly I've never ridden what could be described as a flashy dressage horse so I can't comment on their methods, I'm a lowly riding schooler/loaner trying to learn more :).
 
I think there has to be a contact to receive in the first place. My horse gets a bit confused on a loose rein unless we are hacking, she likes the support of a contact and at first I found I had to be more firm but still allowing, I don't think about working her in an outline really but it does happen periodically and that's great :-) We have only just started schooling so I don't expect much of her. She is a naturally 'long and low' horse though, it's her default setting!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top