Over bent young horses...

blitznbobs

blitznbobs

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Before I start this is NOT A rollkur thread.

However, I'm currently window shopping (a bit too actively) for a dressage youngster I don't have time to ride.

As such I have watched video after video of 4 y o who are very over bent in both trot and canter... Now I have ridden horses for a very long time and trained one horse to Grand Prix so I know that at some point during their training most dressage horses balance them selves thru over bending but this seems to
Be in most of the videos. If I was selling a horse I wouldn't show a video of a horse v over bent --

do you think this is due to the ignorance of the rider, modern breeding of the German and Dutch warm bloods or just that most 4 year olds over bend as they have no strength in their backs yet ...
 
Since joining HHO and seeing the various discussions on the subject I have become hyper observant of this now, I see them everywhere :(
It's become a major bugbear of mine to see horses (not always the unmuscled and figuring out how to hold themselves youngsters either) like this almost constantly.
 
It is because of the expression, 'on the bit'.

It puts the emphasis on the head alone, so that's what many people concentrate on.

When I was a kid, nobody cared at lower levels. Nowadays it is different...and sad!
 
IMO, a lot depends on the type of overbent. Smokes goes deep and his head is behind the vertical more often than not. This is because he's learning to use himself and really work over his back into the contact, and currently getting him to soften his jaw and swing through is more important than him going in a more advanced frame. If he's working in a soft and relaxed way and isn't sucking behind the bit then Al gladly lets him dictate where his balance is for that right now. As he develops those muscles more and becomes stronger then she'll ask for more lift in front. But rushing that would just stop the really lovely softness he's developing.

And while I do agree overbent is bad, you need the bigger picture.
 
_GG_ said:
It is because of the expression, 'on the bit'.

It puts the emphasis on the head alone, so that's what many people concentrate on.

When I was a kid, nobody cared at lower levels. Nowadays it is different...and sad!
Click to expand...

I totally agree. Was going to say, I think its because people are ignorant and think it 'looks good' Yes I would even say many of the people who are otherwise good enough riders (which i am not!) to train a horse to do dressage.

ETA - my wonderful RI always instructs me to 'ride the back end, the head will look after itself'. Her horses go beautifully and I have never seen one overbent.
 
Sadly over bending does seem rather fashionable; babies need time and training to bring their heads down which will happen when it happens and usually at considerably older than four. People want instant results and looks good horse without the effort.
 
My mare ducks behind the contact because at the dealers they used to see saw her mouth to pull her head in and she has a very soft mouth hence her overbending. She's 5 this year...
I have recently put her in a happy mouth though and encourage long and low work so she's getting much better already. I am having lessons with a good dressage instructor and won't be specifically asking for an 'outline' for a while yet.
 
The question is why is the horse BTV .
And I think you really have to see the horse and get a feel of it to know this .
I agree based on the ad pictures you see if you discounted all the BTV young horses you would drastically reduce your pool of possibles purchases.
So if they tick enough of your boxes with that as a question mark then you will need to view and see .
Good luck with the horse hunt .
 
Lolo said:
IMO, a lot depends on the type of overbent. Smokes goes deep and his head is behind the vertical more often than not. This is because he's learning to use himself and really work over his back into the contact, and currently getting him to soften his jaw and swing through is more important than him going in a more advanced frame. If he's working in a soft and relaxed way and isn't sucking behind the bit then Al gladly lets him dictate where his balance is for that right now. As he develops those muscles more and becomes stronger then she'll ask for more lift in front. But rushing that would just stop the really lovely softness he's developing.

And while I do agree overbent is bad, you need the bigger picture.
Click to expand...

wise words.

tobiano said:
I totally agree. Was going to say, I think its because people are ignorant and think it 'looks good' Yes I would even say many of the people who are otherwise good enough riders (which i am not!) to train a horse to do dressage.

ETA - my wonderful RI always instructs me to 'ride the back end, the head will look after itself'. Her horses go beautifully and I have never seen one overbent.
Click to expand...

interesting, because most horses i see, ridden by the "ride the hind legs and leave its head alone" brigade are very strung out and never learn to lighten the front end and stay on the hind leg. They look fairly sweet in a prelim/novicey sort of way but never learn to take a half halt that goes through to the hind leg.

Megibo said:
My mare ducks behind the contact because at the dealers they used to see saw her mouth to pull her head in and she has a very soft mouth hence her overbending. She's 5 this year...
I have recently put her in a happy mouth though and encourage long and low work so she's getting much better already. I am having lessons with a good dressage instructor and won't be specifically asking for an 'outline' for a while yet.
Click to expand...

and that IMO is wrong. from the very first time you sit on your 3yo at backing yous hould be asking for an appropriate outline. The horse must learn to be submissive to the leg (ie stay in fron of it) and also submissive to the hand (not gob and yob and lean or pull). By allowing your horse to work in an un-structured manner for any length of time youa re setting yourself up for a huge battle of wills later on.

i ride a lot of horses for other people, all types and from all different ways of schooling. Those that have been allowed to plow round with no submission to the hand i will put deep and to hell with being BTV. when they learn to not to seperate my shoulders from my body i will then concentrate on bringing them more uphill.

there is a reason 99% of dressage riders do some sort of deep/btv work. because it works, because it gymnastisises (SP?) the horses, relaxes them, makes them supple,makes them rideable etc.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
wise words.



interesting, because most horses i see, ridden by the "ride the hind legs and leave its head alone" brigade are very strung out and never learn to lighten the front end and stay on the hind leg. They look fairly sweet in a prelim/novicey sort of way but never learn to take a half halt that goes through to the hind leg.



and that IMO is wrong. from the very first time you sit on your 3yo at backing yous hould be asking for an appropriate outline. The horse must learn to be submissive to the leg (ie stay in fron of it) and also submissive to the hand (not gob and yob and lean or pull). By allowing your horse to work in an un-structured manner for any length of time youa re setting yourself up for a huge battle of wills later on.

i ride a lot of horses for other people, all types and from all different ways of schooling. Those that have been allowed to plow round with no submission to the hand i will put deep and to hell with being BTV. when they learn to not to seperate my shoulders from my body i will then concentrate on bringing them more uphill.

there is a reason 99% of dressage riders do some sort of deep/btv work. because it works, because it gymnastisises (SP?) the horses, relaxes them, makes them supple,makes them rideable etc.
Click to expand...


The last part of that is very true. I have never understood (as an adult) why you would get on a young horse and let it learn one way of going only to think later on that it's now time to start working and try and round the outline. That is usually what leads to a need for sawing at the mouth. It's not fair on the horse.

When you re-train a racehorse, you have a harder job than breaking a youngster in the sense that you have to unteach the way of going that the horse knows and retrain another way. It's the same if you just let a young horse go forward from the leg without any contact through the rein. There will come a time when you have to retrain that so why not just do it that way from the start and make it easier in the horse.

There's a very big difference between working a horse in a relxed btv to forcing the horse into a tense btv frame.
 
Why would you punish a horse by pulling it deep and btv when it was only going as it had been educated to do. I dont believe in over-correcting to get to where you want, you put the horse where you want it to educate it. They arent a piece of bent rubber which needs to be deformed back the other way to get it straight, they are a dynamic mix of extensor and flexor muscles supported by huge elastic ligaments. That's a whole lot more complicated!
 
Horses are naturally either on the forehand or BTV, with more tending to be on the forehand than BTV. Having said that if I were selling a horse I would never use a photo/video of it on the forehand or BTV as I would want to present it in the best light possible. I also find some advert photos/videos shocking and I tend to assume the seller doesn't know much about horses.
 
Booboos said:
Horses are naturally either on the forehand or BTV, with more tending to be on the forehand than BTV. Having said that if I were selling a horse I would never use a photo/video of it on the forehand or BTV as I would want to present it in the best light possible. I also find some advert photos/videos shocking and I tend to assume the seller doesn't know much about horses.
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What?! Most of the horse BTV are also on the forehand, surely you're not saying they arent when they're BTV?
 
TheMule said:
Why would you punish a horse by pulling it deep and btv when it was only going as it had been educated to do. I dont believe in over-correcting to get to where you want, you put the horse where you want it to educate it. They arent a piece of bent rubber which needs to be deformed back the other way to get it straight, they are a dynamic mix of extensor and flexor muscles supported by huge elastic ligaments. That's a whole lot more complicated!
Click to expand...

its not punishing them, where did i say i punish them? i said that i teach them to be submissive to the hand, and if that needs to be BTV so to do it, then there they go. Im also an educated enough ride not to need to "pull" the horse btv/deep.
You use lateral flexions, give and re-takes, your seat and your leg to influence the neck in to a rounder outline and when the horse is where you want it you reward,momentary release and encourage self carrige.

you certainly dont haul them in to a deeper outline then pin them there with your hand.

i think some people need to educate themselves on this a bit more before assuming anyone who puts a horse deep is doing it to punish or force the horse.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
its not punishing them, where did i say i punish them? i said that i teach them to be submissive to the hand, and if that needs to be BTV so to do it, then there they go. Im also an educated enough ride not to need to "pull" the horse btv/deep

i think some people need to educate themselves on this a bit more before assuming anyone who puts a horse deep is doing it to punish or force the horse.
Click to expand...

Maybe it's just your tone then, that came across that way.

There are many roads to Rome, a thousand different training techniques and many justifiable reasons for different things. Personally, I don't feel the need to over-compensate in order to train a horse, be it through flexions, pulling, forcing, whatever. It's all wrong to me if the horse ends up being ridden in an incorrect frame
 
there are an awful lot of top riders, olympians even, who are doing it wrong then. who churn out grand prix horses and top showjumpers/eventers year after year, who compete for their country and win,but are still not as educated or experienced as the HHO massive.................................
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
its not punishing them, where did i say i punish them? i said that i teach them to be submissive to the hand, and if that needs to be BTV so to do it, then there they go. Im also an educated enough ride not to need to "pull" the horse btv/deep.
You use lateral flexions, give and re-takes, your seat and your leg to influence the neck in to a rounder outline and when the horse is where you want it you reward,momentary release and encourage self carrige.

you certainly dont haul them in to a deeper outline then pin them there with your hand.

i think some people need to educate themselves on this a bit more before assuming anyone who puts a horse deep is doing it to punish or force the horse.
Click to expand...


This. Absolutely this. A rider that doesn't understand the role of lateral flexion in unlocking tension and creating relaxation should not really be retraining or even training anything.

Lateral does not only mean the legs crossing over. It is perfectly possible to bring a horse into a deeper and rounder frame without any force or punishment. Punishment would actually be counter productive.
 
_GG_ said:
This. Absolutely this. A rider that doesn't understand the role of lateral flexion in unlocking tension and creating relaxation should not really be retraining or even training anything.

Lateral does not only mean the legs crossing over. It is perfectly possible to bring a horse into a deeper and rounder frame without any force or punishment. Punishment would actually be counter productive.
Click to expand...

This is so true .
TBH I can hardly be bothered to have this debate any more especially when it seems when you finally see the most vocal on the subject on a horse it is more likely than not to be running about above the bit with it back inverted and it's hocks trailing .
 
_GG_ said:
A rider that doesn't understand the role of lateral flexion in unlocking tension and creating relaxation should not really be retraining or even training anything.
Click to expand...

Goldenstar said:
the most vocal on the subject on a horse it is more likely than not to be running about above the bit with it back inverted and it's hocks trailing .
Click to expand...

Absolutely x 2.
 
Article on Rolkur/Hyperflexion by Jean Luc Cornille (Science of Motion)

Link to the full article with diagrams

http://scienceofmotion.com/documents/hyper-flexion.html

"A Failure of Olympic Dimension

Instead of upgrading their equestrian education to the quality level of their horses, riders and trainers practicing the hyperflexion of the upper neck are downgrading their horses to ultimate domination by placing their horse in a situation where they have physically no way out.
This is a failure of Olympic dimension. Submissive techniques belong to the equestrian education of the medieval age.
However one looks at it: from the perspective of the main ligaments involved, the muscular system, the kinematics of the limbs, or the biomechanical properties of the vertebral column, there is no advantage in over-flexing the horse’s upper neck.
The nuchal ligament is an elastic structure inserted at one end on the dorsal spinous process of the fourth thoracic vertebra and attached at the other end on the cervical vertebrae and the skull.
The general consensus is that the nuchal ligament supports the head in an alert position, yet stretches enough to allow grazing.
In reality, in reality the opposite is true, the nuchal ligament is not under tension when the horse holds the head and neck in an alert posture.
At the other extreme, the nuchal ligament is not elastic enough to allow grazing. Instead of the support role theorized by traditional anatomists, the purpose of the nuchal ligament is to assist the work of the upper neck muscles. At the walk, the nuchal ligament provides an amazing 55% of the energy needed to move the head and neck. At the trot and canter, the nuchal ligament assumes 33% and 31% respectively of the total work required to oscillate the head and neck. By taking advantage of the nuchal ligament’s energy storage capacity, the horse reduces the work of the upper neck muscles between 31% and 55% at the different gaits.
The head and neck carriage commonly presented at FEI dressage level is totally assumed by the work of the upper neck muscles. The nuchal ligament is then almost totally unstrained. “At a neck angle of 55ºall portions of the nuchal ligament are unstrained.” (K. S. Gellman, J. E. A. Bertram, The Equine Nuchal Ligament: Structural and Materials Properties, 2002).
The lowering of the neck that the horse spontaneously executes after work is not a stretching of the upper neck muscles as emphasized by traditional anatomist, but rather an astute way to ease the work of the upper neck muscles, thereby increasing the contribution of the nuchal ligament. So when a horse relaxes and lowers his head, he is giving his neck muscles a rest by changing his head and neck position which in turn means the nuchal ligament is now active.
The principle of storage and restitution of energy that is commonly accepted in respect of the long tendons and ligaments of the horse’s lower legs, applies within the neck to the nuchal ligament. Large animals such as the horse cannot function on the simplistic concepts of muscles moving bones.
It would require enormous muscle masse and tremendous muscular energy to move the horse’s limbs and body. Instead, the horse has developed a sophisticated mechanism of short muscles assuming optimum elastic recoil of long tendons, which in turn are moving the legs. It is this elastic recoil effect that reduces and enhances the work of the muscles.
The horse’s energy saving mechanism does not apply only to the lower legs. In fact the fore limbs, all the way to the muscles supporting the trunk from the shoulder blades; the hind limbs, all the way to the pelvis; and the whole vertebral column mechanism, as well as the neck, are constructed on the model of energy saving and energy restitution.
In order to measure the strain energy storage capacity of the nuchal ligament, the two researchers from Cornell University, investigated the material and structural properties of the ligament. Observing differences in density and volume from the attachment of the nuchal ligament on the withers area by comparison to the insertion on the skull, Gellman and Bertram divided the funicular element into four equal parts.
The nuchal ligament consists of a dorsal cord-like section that is referred to as funicular (F) and a sheet-like section that is named lamellar (L). The lamellar elements spread between the funicular elements and the cervical vertebrae.
The two scientists observed that the two segments labeled on our illustration as F3 and F4 had little tissue volume. “These portions have been neglected from the reminder of the analysis because it is doubtful that they store a useful quantity of elastic energy.” (Gellman, Bertram) These sections, which are too weak to even be considered in a scientific investigation, are the portions that are placed under intense strain when the upper end of the neck is overly flexed!!!
The research lead to a significant discovery. Even if, from an anatomical perspective, the nuchal ligament spreads from the spinous processes of the more advanced thoracic vertebrae to the skull, the nuchal ligament functions in fact from the dorsal spines of the cranial thoracic vertebrae to the back of the second cervical vertebra. “Functional load bearing, in the equine nuchal ligament, passes from its origin on the cranial thoracic spinous processes though the nuchal ligament regions F-1 and F-2, then to region L-4, inserting on the second cervical vertebrae.” (Gellman, Bertram)
Whatever hyperflexion of the upper neck is achieved in the warm up of a dressage ring or with draw reins in the warm up of a jumping ring, the “technique” is acting on a section of the horse’s neck that has very little tissue volume and therefore is incapable to sustain increased stress and is even not active in the horse’s locomotion!!!

Whatever the neck posture, the cervical vertebrae are always aligned into a deformable S shape.
“Virgchow, 1915 has already pointed out that in the dorsal direction (ventral concave) the cervical vertebral column can be stretched only so far, that the vertebrae are lying in a straight line. A further dorsal flexion is chiefly prevented by the ligaments. Thus the fact that the Ungulates with their long necks can reach the ground with their mouth, is not based on the mobility of the neck. It is made possible by the mobility of the thoracic vertebrae, by the mobility of the atlanto-occipital joint and by the posture of the fore-legs.” (E. J. Slijper, Omparative Biologic-anatomical Investigations on the Vertebral Column and Spinal Musculature of Mammals. 1946)
The general consensus is that as the horse’s sustains the trunk between the shoulder blades, the deepness of lower curve lessens, allowing the upper curve to move the poll forward over the vertical of the mouth.
The line of function of the nuchal ligament, from the withers to the back of the second cervical vertebra, strongly suggests instead that, lowering the neck and therefore increasing the tension on the nuchal ligament may deepen the lower curve of the cervical alignment sagging the trunk between the shoulder blades.
A secondary effect, known as “verticalization” of the dorsal spinous processes further aggravates the problem. “In the living horse, as is also the case in anatomical specimens, the lowering of the neck produces a verticalization of the spinous processes in the wither.” (Jean Marie Denoix, Spinal Biomechanics and Functional Anatomy, 1999)
The technique evidently increases the weight on the forelegs. In fact, I the late 1980, when Nicole Uphoff was preparing Rembrandt for the 1988 Seoul Olympics, the over-flexion of the neck was already in vogue. It was not the dramatic hyper-flexion of the upper neck that is practiced today. It was more an overall flexion of the whole neck which was referred to as “deep work”. There was no more rational explanation at that time than there is today for the hyper-flexion of the upper neck. It was just something riders were doing hoping that it would help them to win. One of the theories was precisely that the deep work increased the load on the forelegs. “As the rider warms up with the horse’s neck over-flexed, the load on the forelegs increases. When the rider lifts the horse’s neck up before entering the ring, the load on the forelegs lessens and the shoulders exhibit greater freedom at least for the time of the test.” The theory was infantile. The extrinsic muscles of the forelegs adjust instantly to the load. Their adjustments are not retroactive. The difference, if there was one, was more like that of the saying of the man who hits his head against the wall because it feels so good when he stops.
However one looks at it: from the perspective of the main ligaments involved, the muscular system, the kinematics of the limbs, or the biomechanical properties of the vertebral column, there is no advantage in over-flexing the horse’s upper neck. Not one of the scientific studies has found any athletic advantage in over-flexing the horse’s upper neck. I am referring of course to the scientific investigations that have not been financed by the Rollkur proponents. The question is therefore why riders are using this technique?
Instead of upgrading their equestrian education to the quality level of their horses, riders and trainers practicing the hyper-flexion of the upper neck are downgrading their horses to ultimate domination by placing their horse in a situation where they have physically no way out. Upper neck muscles as well as higher segments of the nuchal ligament are weak; and once trapped in this posture, either subdued by physical pain or because they have no way out, or both, the horse’s brain shuts off as a survival reflex. They execute the moves mechanically, focusing on staying alive."


There are differing views even amongst the experienced and educated ;)
 
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I think it is perfectly possible to educate a horse to work correctly without it having to be deep or round as a youngster.
I think they are overused terms and sadly overused techniques which get rewarded at the lower levels of dressage.
Where the head is at is irrelevant, the head is merely on the end of the neck, where the neck is at is the critical thing.

I am completely in agreement with the Mule on this. I think this obsession with working young horses strenuously in an unnatural way and not allowing them to build a natural or normal musculature, by making them work long and low or round from day one, is very damaging to them.
 
I try to watch dressage tests on youtube before doing them (prelim) and 99% of the winning tests are overbent!! I think it's definitely a strength thing.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
there are an awful lot of top riders, olympians even, who are doing it wrong then. who churn out grand prix horses and top showjumpers/eventers year after year, who compete for their country and win,but are still not as educated or experienced as the HHO massive.................................
Click to expand...

Always the convenient way to win a debate, isn't it?! Start throwing insults at the people you are debating against!

In my education and experience, I do not need to overbend my horses to educate them to go correctly. It's my opinion, I am entititled to it, just as you are to yours. But people making statements which infer that horse BTV is not on the forehand, or that you havr to ride it BTV for it to become supple and relaxed are, in my opinion, worthy or being challenged.
 
siennamum said:
I think it is perfectly possible to educate a horse to work correctly without it having to be deep or round as a youngster.
I think they are overused terms and sadly overused techniques which get rewarded at the lower levels of dressage.
Where the head is at is irrelevant, the head is merely on the end of the neck, where the neck is at is the critical thing.

I am completely in agreement with the Mule on this. I think this obsession with working young horses strenuously in an unnatural way and not allowing them to build a natural or normal musculature, by making them work long and low or round from day one, is very damaging to them.
Click to expand...

I have never had to work a youngster deep or round when it is a blank canvas. I have however, on many occasions sat on horses that have been allowed to work hollow for many years and no amount of gentle straight persausion will help the horse go in any other way. The last thing I want to do is force the issue. I also don't want a horse to carry the weight of a rider on the muscles and ligaments of the back....they are so very sensitive. What I aim for is to encourage the horse to relax, let go of the tension in the neck and jaw because when you do that, the tension in the back is gone almost instantly. There are many different and kind methods for releasing that tension, one of those being lateral flexion. It is crucial in all training in my opinion where there is any tension in the horse.

Dorian has posted a fab article, but this thread isn't even about hyerflexion, neither is the kind of deep and round carriage that certainly I am talking about. There is no need for me to speak for others, they can do that perfectly well but I will make the rare assumption that we would agree.

The kind of lateral flexion and deep and round that helps a horse is not forced. The lateral felxion at the poll is asked for. Not demanded, just asked for and rewarded when the horse gives it. You know what happens when you get that lateral felxion at the poll...the head and neck relax and drop...not because I have pulled it down and nor do I force a horse to move with its poll in constant flexion. I just encourage the flexion to release the tension, what happens after that is down to the horse. It is the horse that lowers when relaxed and it is the horse that starts to swing and lift through the back and that means they are carrying the weight far far better than just on the muscles and ligaments.

I don't ask them to keep it up for long. They are not forced there, so they are free to come out if it when they are tired. As a horse builds in strength, so I will ask it to maintain a good contact throughout the work, so deep when needed, but in a steady working contact otherwise or as stretchy out contact, just slowly increasing the work as the horses capability allows.

Otherwise we'd all be riding around dumping our weight down on then very sensitive areas of the horse that were never designed for such a job. If we are going to ride our friends, the lease we can do is make it as easy and healthy for them as possible.
 
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