Overbending......help!

[WishfulThinker]

Beau is totally overbending, even when I have slack reins he still tucks his head in. When we do trot work he will occasionally being his front end up and even though from my angle it looks like he is hollowing he is still keeping his head in an outline.

While this all looks very pretty it not good!! His nose is really the wrong side of the vertical and I have no idea how to get it back. I dont ride with my hands like down by the saddle, and I am quite good at keeping a straight line from my elbow to the bit (when he is not overbending). I dont have my leg on all the time either as I am not a fan of going fast!

So how can I get him to not overbend so much? I have to really REALLY ride him into the bridle in walk to get his head up, and then he will just overbend again.
He does this in a normal snaffle to (he has been ridden in a 3ring gag).
Its a real pain in canter as since his head is so far back there is no where else to go there feels like there is no where to contain the forard energy, so he just stops or leans on the bit.

I am going to have some proper flatwork lessions next week, but I want to try and work on this before hand. On the whole he seems to be quite good, he is great at turn on the forehand, reinback and last night they had us doing shoulder in.

 

[EllieBeast]

What mouthpiece is he in?

 

[teapot]

Used to ride a horse like that, and hack out a pony - almost feels like it's not a true contact. Kinda like they've been in draw reins.

Only thing I found to work for both horses was just to concentrate on relaxation, relaxation, relaxation and getting them to go long and low.

It took pony I hack out, about 1hr 30 to relax and stretch his neck out, with nose not tucked in. Posuer used to take anything from 20mins for 2hrs.

Takes time and a lot of patience. Also don't concentrate on the front end too much, outlines as such come from behind with the whole body rounding. So maybe think about working the horse uphill with its back end without touching its front end - if that makes sense

Hope this kinda helps, I've probably rambled and gone off on one

 

[WishfulThinker]

It has been a 3ring snaffle for years(not my choice but he was strong). I have tried a waterford which he seems to like playing with, but also a straight ordinary riding school issue snaffle.

He will isntantly go long and low if you put him on a complete relaxed rein - almost like he is hovering the floor!but he will still bend round corners etc so I know he is listening.

We have noticed that he is really more responsive to seat aids, especially as he now had a saddle that doesnt need a riser pad, and I am opting not to use a numnah/saddle cloth. Also the flaps of this saddle are flush with his sides (dont know if that is making a difference to). I was spending a lot of time tonight working on using seat/legs and tempo to slow him down/stop and change speed in walk and trot. But still he overbends.

As u can see form my sig though, my sis can seem to take th impulsion from the rear and ride himup and into this outline that he is creating.
maybe she just has the nack! For once I would be more than happy to have a neddie that pokes his nose out!! I think this is what I get for wishing for a pretty horse who likes to pose!

 

[EllieBeast]

maybe try a french link mouthpiece, i find that it is a mouthpiece that horses back off a lot less than a nutcracker joint.

 

[katiejaye]

My horse does this as an evasion sometimes and he used to do it a lot when I first had him. He used to tuck behind the bit to avoid the contact and avoid engaging his hind/back. I would suggest maybe getting him to work long and low when you start your sessions by lengthening you reins and keep him moving forward with lots of energy so he has to take the bit foward and work over his back/hind. I think it's hard to really suggest a solution without seeing the horse as there could be many reasons why he is doing this. It may be worth getting him checked over physically as in the past my boy has tended to tuck behind the bit and hollow his back when he has had a sore back or when the saddle needs a check.

 

[WishfulThinker]

Oh he's not hollowing his back , thats the thing. He actually seems happier through his back, striding out longer. We felt over his back and not a flicker, he didnt even register what we were doing.
But its not like he wants to just plod either, he seems to really enjoy what he is doing and is really keen to get going, and the ears go forward and my friend says you can see he is having fun (Ive seen him really miserable so can tell).

I think I might jsut try a french link - will have to see if someone had one i can get a shot of.

Would a waterford not take away the nutcracker action though?
As he still overbends in that.

 

[katiejaye]

I would say a french link would be your best option. I use the waterford for XC and SJ as I find it a much stronger bit. The french link would work better as it may encourage him to take the bit forward more as it is less severe. Tucking behind the bit is still an evasion as he is avoiding having to take the contact foward. Try the french link and see how it goes from there.

 

[Sal_E]

It's possible he is avoiding the contact so certainly start by simplfying his bit - certainly avoid anything with poll action. Personally, I'd try a loose ring snaffle, trying both jointed & french link to see which he prefers - possibly also try a warm metal if you happen to have one of those.

He needs to be happier to ride INTO the contact & he's never going to do that if he's not in the right bit.

If he's the sort of horse who wants to please (sounds like he is!), it's quite possible that he THINKS this is the right place to be - especially as he's probably rewarded by the rider's reaction which is usually to ride really lightly because the horse feels so light (not a criticism of you - I've done it myself - the contact on the rein feels paper-light so that's how you recipricate).

The first stage is certainly, as you say, to ride him forwards, forwards, forwards - try loosening the rein a bit too much & don't worry if he loses all sort of an outline (in fact I would say going round like a giraffee is more positive than over-bent). If that is not enough to solve the problem (likely) then there's a couple more things you can try (which I've had varying success with...). Firstly, a sharp upward pull of the inside rein couple with leg-on (& I add a 'get up' voice command - not compulsory!) - you can do that a few times in succession & be quick to reward when/if you get the desired response. The other thing to try which some may consider counter-productive but has worked for me, is you rein him in even more; i.e. really, really over-shorten whilst still driving him forwards - do this for several minutes (i.e. enough time for him to get fed up with it) & then gently let him out in the hope that he seeks the contact & follows you. As soon as he goes over-bent again, do the same again. This approach should teach him that a) being over-bent doesn't achieve avoidance of contact (i.e. it's not a comfortable place to be) and b) is a slightly crude way of teaching him to seek the contact & respond to you putting/placing him where you want him. What you've hopefully done is reversed his comfort zone - typically, he goes behind the contact & you end up lightening the contact so he learns that's a comfortable place to be but by shortening him onto an un-weilding contact, he learns that 'back there' is actually NOT where he wants to be & when he seeks a longer contact, you THEN reward him with a light/comfortable contact. Hope you don't find that too contraversial!

 

[Sal_E]

bump

 

[not_with_it]

You need to be able to push him forward from your leg, if he just runs away then he isnt on your seat which is what you need to work on. Your seat should control the speed whilst your legs are wrapped to engage the hind legs. Work on getting him really long and low and push his head and neck down towards the floor. Keep your leg on to stop him tipping down onto his forehand.

 

[Sal_E]

I can see what you're saying Nat but have you found that when you pick the horse back up again he stays where you want him? Is the problem not the fact that the horse sees the over-bent position either as the 'correct' (learnt) way of going or a good way of evading - therefore, he'll gladly go long & low as a separate thing but then when picked back up, go back to his normal (over-bent position)... Not arguing, just interested to hear your views!

 

[WishfulThinker]

I have to say I have tried the incresing the contact tp a point that I would have assumed it was uncomfotable for him, he does kinda turn round and give me a look, then he just leans on me, so I of course loosen the contact and he puts his head where he wants it!

I know I am too soft on him, and I know I am overly scared of being heavy handed.
There is definately some confusion on my part to as having ridden horses in the past who do work correctly and produce that light feel, my mind is telling me that it's right for him to feel like that when it is not.

I am going to try some simple/eays on the mouth bits and see what happens. I have Loads of french links, just they are from my pony and so all to small- damn!

Would a straight bar happy mouth be any good at all?

 

[Sal_E]

You may find he tries to lean on it, but if you have it anyway, there's no harm in giving it a go - I think we've all found horses that react totally differently to the textbook before, so I try not to dismiss anything without trying!

If you increase the contact he will feel like he's pulling on you - don't be put off by that - just keep your leg on & keep it up (even if it's making your arms ache for a few minutes - sorry to everyone to disapproves). That's the point - you need him in a uncomfortable position for a short while so he then reacts to the release of the pressure. IDEALLY, you want to feel as if you're fighting with him a bit (trying to find a less crude word than 'fight' but can't think of one) & that after several minutes he gives to you & you quickly reward him by giving yourself. If he then bunches up again, you immediately take the contact back up again & do it again.

It sounds rather crude written down, it's about trying to do it on feel - possibly a good exercise to do with your instructor so he/she can help you to decide when the pressure should be on & at what point you should reward by taking the pressure off - it's all about timing!

 

[katiejaye]

I would say try a loose ring french link to start. That's what I use with Louis and he can also have a habit of overbending when he's trying to evade.

 

[bandit]

hi

my horse is the same -ish! will also disagree with live wire, only coz my trainer does LOL..

she's in a loose ring french link at hte mo, she over bends and goes croup high, trainer says:

get reins in one hand only - and the amount of movement to bridle from hand will be minimalised.. also kick on and kind of pull hand up so her mouth is asked to lift - don't sock her / him in gob but just say - UP pls....

trainer then advised change of bit to old fashioned egg but snaffle (with nut cracker action) as it encourages nose bit more forward.

TBH - I have yet to try it, but she says on paper, it should do the trick but all horses are different so they don't always do things the way we want!!!

hope that helps.

Bx