Overbreeding - are vets part of the problem?

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canteron

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Recent threads on here have got me thinking!! (not easy)

An old instructor of mine used to bang on about how Vets are the problem. They make money from horses who are bred from, they make money from putting down unwanted horses and medicating ones with conformation problems that lead to inevitable soundness issues. And if a horse is put down then yippee, it just starts the lovely money cycle again. So, in her world vets advising against breeding is like turkeys voting for Christmas.

You might say that the people who breed crazily don't have vets that much - but surely it is the 'hobby' and 'professional' breeders that cause the bulk of the problem. How many friends have I known who have bred from a horse because they thought a foal would be sweet and then sold on when it was too much - maybe the vet should have just said 'no', they would have been influential.

Was my old instructor right after all?
 
Vets will advise if a mare is not suited to breeding eg conformation/genetic but really it is the owner who makes the decision to breed. Is the vet to be the judge of the owners' ability?
 
It's about time each country gets to grips with a full breeding index. Sweden already does this for dogs and competition horses and in it you can look up the % or coefficient of inbreeding before buying. Animals that are inbred can't be sold for high prices and if they are inbred past a certain threshold they can't be registered at all :)
 
No, vets are not the problem - at the end of the day it's the owner's decision and ultimate responsibility to breed.

If that owner is a capable and skilled breeder a vet will be a valued part of the team caring for the horses. I for one, am glad about that - when I buy a youngster I want to know that he/she has had appropriate veterinary care (along with good nutrition and upbringing).

However one looks at this it all points back to the same place and responsibilities - the owner.
 
No definitely not the vets problem at all - the blame lies in the desire to own a top level racehorse, or a cute little foal. I only ever breed every second year, partly because I like my foals born and raised at home and I chose the stallion very carefully to produce a quality foal that will have no trouble being sold at some point.

To date I have one in Germany, one that almost qualified for the NZ Endurance team, one that is potentially a top level showjumper and one that is a great teenagers horse.

If I don't find the right stallion my mare misses a year.
 
Vets never comment unless asked directly they just treat the animal in front of them.

One problem is that Stallion Licencing was stopped. When that was in place all stallions were inspected for conformation, etc.

I suppose it didn't stop people using their own stallion on their own animals. The argument was that breed societies would not allow a poor stallion to be registered but it became a free-for-all. But even inspection wouldn't cure all ills because even with societies with very strict inspection and licencing for stallions and mares, some in-breed problems can occur.
 
canteron said:
Recent threads on here have got me thinking!! (not easy)

They make money from horses who are bred from, they make money from putting down unwanted horses and medicating ones with conformation problems that lead to inevitable soundness issues. And if a horse is put down then yippee, it just starts the lovely money cycle again. So, in her world vets advising against breeding is like turkeys voting for Christmas.
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what are they supposed to do lol? work for free or just not be vets? of course they aren't the problem. Can you imagine the outcry if vets tried to dictate to people whether to breed etc-I can see the threads now!

but I have come to the conclusion that the lack of evidence based vet medicine and insurance companies are a large part of the problem. Saying that, owners need to take responsibility as well.
 
I really don't think vets should be expected to take responsibility for the stupid, or sometimes morally vacuous, decisions of their clients...
 
I have grumbled about this for a very very long time. Vets ARE partly behind the problem!

Ever since, when prior to going into vet college, I used to watch a vet operate, I have never forgotten the throw away remark, "I hope we can keep this one (elderly peke) going a bit longer as he is a great money spinner! (Giggles)". In the past, sick animals were pts. Now they are patched up, taken home, and put in foal if they cannot be used for anything else. "She can't be ridden. Never mind, she'll breed a foal". Yes, she will, but the propensity to get a disease is often genetic, so more substandard stock.

Also, I strongly suspect the attitude against humanely destroying a healthy animal that has no economic use comes from the vets. How many refuse to destroy an otherwise apparently healthy animal? There are lots of reasons why it is sometimes the best decision to put an animal down and that decision should be left to the owner without pressures from the vet to keep alive.
 
Dry Rot said:
Also, I strongly suspect the attitude against humanely destroying a healthy animal that has no economic use comes from the vets. How many refuse to destroy an otherwise apparently healthy animal? There are lots of reasons why it is sometimes the best decision to put an animal down and that decision should be left to the owner without pressures from the vet to keep alive.
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I can genuinely say that that has never happened in my extensive experience. For one vets are almost never asked to put down a healthy animal for economic reasons. It may happen, but I suspect the knackerman sees these cases rather than the vet. More likely the horse is passed on or sent through the low-value sales rings.

In the example you quoted about the Peke these sorts of throwaway comments are made all the time. The are just that. Like all the medical professions there is a certain amount of tongue-in-cheek gallows humour.
 
Dry Rot said:
Also, I strongly suspect the attitude against humanely destroying a healthy animal that has no economic use comes from the vets. How many refuse to destroy an otherwise apparently healthy animal? There are lots of reasons why it is sometimes the best decision to put an animal down and that decision should be left to the owner without pressures from the vet to keep alive.
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I am not a vet (ex VN) but I have known lots and know lots of them. They do not exist to put healthy animals down, that is not their job-I've not met one yet who will happily do it although plenty will if its the best thing to do. Owners are responsible for their animals, can't cope with them or the decisions and costs wrapped up in them, don't have them. Why should vets carry that on their conscience? I knew a few who opted to work culling during F&M and it really took its toll. A vet will not recommend PTS an animal not at deaths door unless it comes from the owner first generally speaking, it is not their job to cull unwanted animals.

There is a line whereby you decide that an animal is worth keeping on-a line dictated by the animals welfare and the owners ability (financial and otherwise). Its different in every case. There are people to whom animals are throwaway-I've seen it in small animal and equine practice-where they wanted animals PTS because it became inconvenient. I don't see why vets should take that on board-they already have to cope with the inadequacies of the majority of pet and horse owners anyway. Of course a 'good death' is better than many alternatives but if thats the outcome for the animal, how is that the vets moral responsibility?


eta-it sounds ranty sorry :$ still upset from commute and someone being idiotic. Not having a go DR, just don't like people much this morning!
 
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Why can people just not take responsibility for these things? From the mare owners who have not sought good advice to the stallion owners who should actually have a gelding. Then there are foreign imports due the commercial nature which they breed. There are a myriad of reasons that there are too many horses about who should not have been born but frankly vets are not the issue!
 
DOn't think vets are to blame at all - but interestingly I have twice had a vet suggest to me that I breed from a mare I would consider unsuitable for breeding - one though a quality horse in terms of her breeding had kissing spines - which could be genetic, and one was an unregistered colored of unknown breeding with stifle problems - neither I think very suitable for the 'job'
 
The problem is that folk do not realise when to put their horse out of its misery or when a useful life end has been reached!! Medicated and in a field is not a life for a horse!

And folk having a mare with a bad back.....or some other genetic/conformation issue, or even temperament that stops it being ridden....and they breed from it. Its like a facepalm. "it would be nice to have a foal around"............that may be true but that foal becomes a horse which may have the same issues as the dam!

When my old horse was clearly ill, clearly not going to get better I ASKED to have him PTS. Yes he stood there still looking healthy and happy, but he couldn't walk properly. The vet advised that they cannot PTS yet, I HAVE to try medication.........I stupidly agreed. 2 days and 1 £85 bottle of steroid tablets which thankfully never got opened he was down in the field and thats where he was PTS, distressed as he had lost the use of his back legs.

Maybe I am cruel in that I see horses as both pets and agricultural animals.

So I think that in a way its not just over breeding, its the fact that horses are kept a lot longer then we used to. They live longer so if the breeding rate even just stays the same then it will appear as over breeding.

I think charities should PTS horses in their care over 10 years old and ill or over 15 years and only a companion suitable. Sorry but that is harsh I accept that.
 
EmmasMummy said:
The problem is that folk do not realise when to put their horse out of its misery or when a useful life end has been reached!! Medicated and in a field is not a life for a horse!

And folk having a mare with a bad back.....or some other genetic/conformation issue, or even temperament that stops it being ridden....and they breed from it. Its like a facepalm. "it would be nice to have a foal around"............that may be true but that foal becomes a horse which may have the same issues as the dam!

When my old horse was clearly ill, clearly not going to get better I ASKED to have him PTS. Yes he stood there still looking healthy and happy, but he couldn't walk properly. The vet advised that they cannot PTS yet, I HAVE to try medication.........I stupidly agreed. 2 days and 1 £85 bottle of steroid tablets which thankfully never got opened he was down in the field and thats where he was PTS, distressed as he had lost the use of his back legs.

Maybe I am cruel in that I see horses as both pets and agricultural animals.

So I think that in a way its not just over breeding, its the fact that horses are kept a lot longer then we used to. They live longer so if the breeding rate even just stays the same then it will appear as over breeding.

I think charities should PTS horses in their care over 10 years old and ill or over 15 years and only a companion suitable. Sorry but that is harsh I accept that.
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I hope you changed your vet!!!!! or if not you gave him hell......there are good and bad vets and I am very lucky to have had good ones. I wasn't sure what to do with my old horse as she was ok pottering round the field ,had been retired for 4 years and was 35...I got my vet to look at her and asked his honest opinion and he said pts before the winter really starts as she will be uncomfortable when the ground is either muddy or rutty and hard due to ice. I was almost at that decision myself but it was reassuring to get his opinion to back me up....
 
To a large extent vets sell a service that's their job .
If a vet refused to PTS an animal I owned I simply would go to another .
commercial breeding will always produce a surplus because not every foal breed will be suitable for the job it's intended for this is a fact of life .
I was a hobby breeder I don't consider myself part of the problem I PTS the disaster I bred , my mares where nice , I had the facilities time skill and money to produce my horses .
There's some really bad breeding in hobby homes and many never get sold they just are bred and kept as pets no problem with that .
Really the problems come in the mad overproduction of poor quality coloured stock the overproduction of semi feral horses.
 
JFTD said:
I really don't think vets should be expected to take responsibility for the stupid, or sometimes morally vacuous, decisions of their clients...
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Not take responsibility, but maybe just be brave enough to tactfully ensure the owner makes a educate choice - let be honest, there is a huge amount of horse owners who are well meaning but don't truly understand what they are doing when they commit their horse to a foal. The dream and the reality are rarely the same.
 
LEC said:
Why can people just not take responsibility for these things? From the mare owners who have not sought good advice to the stallion owners who should actually have a gelding. Then there are foreign imports due the commercial nature which they breed. There are a myriad of reasons that there are too many horses about who should not have been born but frankly vets are not the issue!
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This. The vet's job is to treat the animal in front of it and to give advice to the owner relevant to the condition it is treating. It is the OWNERs responsibility to be mature and realistic about whether or not to breed from their beloved mare or stallion - and, sadly, many are not.

I know someone with a mare with a very dodgy temperament who is considering breeding from her . . . egged on by well-meaning/ignorant friends and even the (equally dodgy, unqualified, not referred by vet) physio. It makes me so angry and sad and frustrated . . . but it happens all the time.

P
 
canteron said:
Not take responsibility, but maybe just be brave enough to tactfully ensure the owner makes a educate choice - let be honest, there is a huge amount of horse owners who are well meaning but don't truly understand what they are doing when they commit their horse to a foal. The dream and the reality are rarely the same.
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But this is dependant on the vet having all the facts . . . horse may be conformationally ok and physically sound, but have a temperament fault the vet knows nothing about. Honestly, the responsibility lies with owners . . . and as some are woefully uninformed, that's a scary prospect.

P
 
splashgirl45 said:
I hope you changed your vet!!!!! or if not you gave him hell......there are good and bad vets and I am very lucky to have had good ones. I wasn't sure what to do with my old horse as she was ok pottering round the field ,had been retired for 4 years and was 35...I got my vet to look at her and asked his honest opinion and he said pts before the winter really starts as she will be uncomfortable when the ground is either muddy or rutty and hard due to ice. I was almost at that decision myself but it was reassuring to get his opinion to back me up....
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Yes, I wont be using them again! Whats worse is the one of the partners firstly diagnosed it as being colic, despite the horse displaying clear neurological issues - like swaying, staggering, like he was drunk. Then it was the one who correctly diasnosed the neuro issues that mentioned we HAD to medicate first.

By far the best out of all 3 that came out was the young male vet who was brilliant and talked to my boy the whole way through and was very clear, he didnt give false hope.

What angers me is that I wanted him taken down the road a mile to my parents, to a massive field of grass fo rhis last day. Instead he was taken there on the front of a tractor covered by a tarp.....
 
A vets job is to give the owners the options of treatment for the animal in front of them at the time.

Some owners will not want the gold standard option or to hear the cheapest option.each situation is different.But all options should be discussed and offered as an option,even if that means referral.

A vet can advise options and promote one over the others but at the the end of the day the owner decides and can say no to all of the options if they chose.Vets are not expected (or advised) to make the decisions without owners consent.
The owners animal,the owners choice.

If the owner is choosing to breed an animal it is not professional or advised to tell them their animal is a vicious cow bag with terrible confirmation(ie your personal opinion) unless you are asked directly for your professional opinion on suitability( you discuss temperament and possible issues due to conformational faults) for breeding or advise regarding breeding. Also to be giving detailed advise on breeding the vet involved should be a equine vet with knowledge in the area.

How many casual breeders do you think actually get a repro vet out to access a mare before breeding as suitable for breeding?
 
The blame culture. The bane of the 21st century.

Of course it is not the vets who are the problem. They do what the owner asks of them. The owner is the person responsible for making decisions.

With respects to breeding. The irresponsible breeders can't have too many working grey matter cells imo, the cost to keep a mare for 18 months (even without any vet costs) versus the pathetic amount they receive on selling the foal just doesn't compute. The professional breeders cost out everything. A huge part of that costing is the price to purchase and then the breeding of the mare. If they're continually making losses across the board then they need to find a different business venture. The hobby/one-off breeder, most often has no comprehension of the true costs of breeding, thankfully they usually only do it once.
 
I think in the case of indiscriminate overbreeding.....not the same as 'planned' but a huge issue that needs addressing...the vets are part of the problem. With going price of between £200 to £300 to castrate a colt it's no wonder that the average scrub pony breeder won't bother to call the vet.

In an ideal world the RCVS and BVA should get together and launch a campaign to drop,or even waive, the costs of gelding colts that belong to the owners of herds over a certain number.

Just my view..
 
Tnavas said:
No definitely not the vets problem at all - the blame lies in the desire to own a top level racehorse, or a cute little foal. I only ever breed every second year, partly because I like my foals born and raised at home and I chose the stallion very carefully to produce a quality foal that will have no trouble being sold at some point.

To date I have one in Germany, one that almost qualified for the NZ Endurance team, one that is potentially a top level showjumper and one that is a great teenagers horse.

If I don't find the right stallion my mare misses a year.
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Why do you breed out of interest?
 
gala said:
I think in the case of indiscriminate overbreeding.....not the same as 'planned' but a huge issue that needs addressing...the vets are part of the problem. With going price of between £200 to £300 to castrate a colt it's no wonder that the average scrub pony breeder won't bother to call the vet.

In an ideal world the RCVS and BVA should get together and launch a campaign to drop,or even waive, the costs of gelding colts that belong to the owners of herds over a certain number.

Just my view..
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why should vets swallow the cost of castrating animals?
 
ann-jen said:
Don't think I know a single vet that isn't passionately against the indiscriminate breeding of animals.
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my bosses vet suggested breeding from a 7yr old coloured mare of unknown breeding as she has a good head for work, she is currently half way through being turned away for 2 yrs as she has tendon damage in both front legs, she is lame in both front legs, has damage in her coffin joint and arthritic knees. the vet was not asked if she would be ok to have a foal he said 'you should put her in foal she is a nice mare', she did not put the mare in foal but we did discuss the cons before she made her decision.
 
twiggy2 said:
why should vets swallow the cost of castrating animals?
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they shouldn't-however, it does seem as though most vets have lost the knowledge in how to castrate standing, castrate in the field etc and charge accordingly. Its not rocket science-we would do three standing castrations a day on very expensive TBs. Yes there is increased risk but give owners the option rather than blinking referring everything.
 
The thing is if a vet goes out to see a lame sheep or a sick cow, they will recommend that it be put to sleep because treatment will cost more than the animal is actually worth but they are reluctant to do the same for horses. The problem being is that quite often the treatment needed for a horse that is lame or will be lame indefinitely WILL be more than the horse is worth. Horses are worth peanuts these days and keeping a useless horse in a field because they feel it "morally" wrong to PTS is BS. They shouldn't be saying "try this, try that" if the owner has already said that they want it to be PTS. If the horse is useless then its not economically viable to keep it pain free to doss about a field for the next 5- 30 years of its life. Sorry, if the horse is unable to do what it was bred/bought for then it shouldn't be questioned by the vet as to whether it should be PTS or not. If they want to take the horse off my hands and pay for it to be a lorn mower for the however many years it has left then please do go ahead, but don't question my decision or tell me that I can keep him in a field for the rest of his life comfortably on such and such a painkiller and certainly don't make me feel guilty for my decision!

So yes I do believe vets are to blame for over population of horses.
 
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