Overheight Show Horses/Ponies - how do they get away with it?

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zoeshiloh

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Just a follow on from the show cobs thread about overheight horses really. We all know that it goes on, so why do so many people still get away with it? I can remember the first show I took my lad to - he is 15.3 1/2 so I honestly entered him into a large riding horse class - he was dwarfed of course, and the judge told me to enter him into small riding horse classes in future. I said he was overheight, and how could I, and she replied no one would notice, and any vet would measure him under.

One of my broodmares measures a tad under 15.3hh and we show her in small hunter classes, but one big county show I went to, the mares in the class dwarfed her, standing well over a hand taller.

A friend of mine bought a show cob from Robert Walker, and he is a nice lad, but when she tried to get him measured, she drove him over 100 miles to a vet in Essex (who has since been investigated) knowing that he would measure him under height. Just to add at this point RW showed him as a 5yo and he was under height at that point, so not getting at the pros.

Why is it that the pro's say people complaining about them are just spouting sour grapes? Yes, sometimes the pros do have amazing horses, but I know for a fact I could take the best put together youngster into a class alongside Moggy Hennessy and I still wouldn't beat her. Moggy herself said to a friend of mine "I could take a donkey in the ring and it would win" - and a lot of pro's unfortunately have this attitude. Another very well known producer recently kicked off at a show because the judge told her her horse had spavins - the producer tried to name drop the owner of the horse (incredibly well known) but the judge thankfully stuck by his guns. Now, us amateurs would never dream of showing a horse with spavins, but this pro thought she would get away with it (and indeed has at other shows) because of who she is.

Anyway, I am deviating slightly - I just thought it would be interesting to hear others experiences/opinions on this on a seperate thread.
 
*hands out popcorn*

lol. I'm taking a backseat on this one I think haha.

Still in love your cobby though. Hope she measures in when she's older as she's looooovely!! :D
 
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Which answer would you like? how they actually get a genuinely over height horse measured in under by a straight vet or how do they get away with it in the ring. There are many answers some will tell you the horses are not given water for 3 days before measuring some will say they hack the feet back to the pedal bones but my personal favorite is they have really heavy riders ride them to be measured lol.

Anyway in all seriousness how they get away with it is through years of dedication and hard work, a good eye for a horse and attention to detail which gives them excellent results in the ring which then attracts the "big name" owners.

So to be brief the answer can only be that they are where they are because they are good. If a horse is remeasured over height they will lose the placing and they only way for an amateur to get the same treatment is to go in the ring time and time again with a totally correct horse that is beautifully turned out and schooled and gain respect that takes years to attain.
 
A big pet hate of mine! I am so fed up with being dwarfed, when in all honesty I am correct and the majority of others are wrong! I've always wanted to know why a 15hh is too small in small riding classes!
I can't see how I can show a 15hh in a pony class, but that is what I was told to do - until they realised my age, I am too old for ponies apparently!?! So, basicly I am stuffed - so I do the workers, and hope that our jumping ability conquers some of the other horses mis fortunes!!
There should definately be a ' measuring place' at shows for all those who look suspisious - IMHO anyway!!
(eats some popcorn and sits down waiting for the next chapter!)
 
rushyj - whilst I agree with part of your post, I also have more questions to ask - Yes, I quite agree that the (majority of) pros have gotten where they are through hard work and attention to detail. However, why does this then give them a licence to take an overheight/overweight/deformed horse into the ring, and still beat better animals?
 
rushyj said:
So to be brief the answer can only be that they are where they are because they are good. If a horse is remeasured over height they will lose the placing and they only way for an amateur to get the same treatment is to go in the ring time and time again with a totally correct horse that is beautifully turned out and schooled and gain respect that takes years to attain.
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To be fair.....this post is totally different to the recent pro-showing rider bashing threads. I'm sure the professionals put a huge amount of work into producing the horses and well done to them. But this isn't about that!! It's about horses that are too big getting placed and getting away with it.

Didn't a vet get struck off for measuring horses under?? I may have imagined that but I do remember the spate of horses getting remeasured due to bent vets.

I know nothing about showing but will watch the thread with interest.
 
I was told years ago that there were all sorts of tricks to get a horse to come in under the bar for a lifetime certificate, including cutting the feet right down and dehydrating them. Certainly I knew one which had a certificate for 15hh which towered over my 15.1 1/2 mare. Ok he stood up very tall compared to her lower head carriage, and she has high withers, but it is still the withers that count.
 
Why is it that the pro's say people complaining about them are just spouting sour grapes? Yes, sometimes the pros do have amazing horses, but I know for a fact I could take the best put together youngster into a class alongside Moggy Hennessy and I still wouldn't beat her. Moggy herself said to a friend of mine "I could take a donkey in the ring and it would win" - and a lot of pro's unfortunately have this attitude.

So true. Last year our boy did really well showing although he did not win. On one occasion he was pulled in 3 rd and a "name" was pulled in 4th. As he came into line the judge looked at the "name" and said oh sorry I pulled you in in the wrong order please swap places!!!

I said to a showing friend how pleased we were with him and how highly he had been placed all season, but never quite won. She said if Moggy had ridden him he would have won. She got Moggy to ride hers to get qualified for HOYS.

So don't any of you showing folk say it is all down to the horse.....it clearly isn't. It is who you are, do you favourably judge the judges horse oh and a call to the ride judge to warn them of any problems he may experience with your horse so he will be prepared.
 
I'm all for some sort of max height barrier on the entrance to the show ring........ but have images of teaching horses how to limbo ;) :D
 
When I was a kid many years ago there was an owner with 5 to 6 show ponies on our DIY yard that her daughter rode.

They used to practice measuring them to get them used to the process and to stay relaxed (one or my current horses is convinced the measuring stick is a horse eating dragon and grows a hand everytime he sees it).

However with one pony that would measure overheight they tied some brambles to the arm of the stick so the pony came to associate it with some pain and would 'drop' a bit when the arm touched his withers. I'm not suggesting this is still done but I did see it with my own eyes.
 
Ok look I know this isn't pro bashing but there are so many variables... As eggs said maybe your horse was not measured while relaxed enough so your horses while still measuring in might have measured bigger while the pros horse was relaxed and taught so is right on the break point.

Some 15.2 are clearly horse while some are clearly ponies. Noone in thier right mind will measure a produced ready to show horse so you are looking at the finished and furnished product in the ring with full top line and muscle and lets not forget they measure to the highest point of the wither which is usually under muscle.

I am not saying all is right with the showing world far from it. I have seen (and been on the recieving end of) some disgusting decisions. I have stood sixth of six on that years current HOYS heavyweight winner only to be told by the judge that with a bit more schooling he would make a fantastic open level horse (horse in my sig). So trust me I know where you are coming from.

All I am trying to say is I have also seen some apalling gripeing for decisions where the judge has gone for true to type over the better behaved horse who was just not good enough. All the time the showing world is judged by people who make money out of it it will never change so all you can do is your absolute best and give them no reason to put you down the line. If you can honestly look at your horse and your presentation and say there is nothing wrong then keep at it you will get there.
 
I remember standing next to a "14.2" show jumping pony, which was huge. It must have been measured as a 2 year old! It was a long time ago though.

It is a tricky one, because here are undoubtedly "tricks" to get horses measured to the required height. I read in a book written between the wars about a dealer that had a stretch of concret that was apparently level, but depending which end the horse stood it was either bigger or smaller! So he would show the horse to the client and put a measuring stick on it to "prove" that it was the required height.
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
I remember standing next to a "14.2" show jumping pony, which was huge. It must have been measured as a 2 year old! It was a long time ago though.

It is a tricky one, because here are undoubtedly "tricks" to get horses measured to the required height. I read in a book written between the wars about a dealer that had a stretch of concret that was apparently level, but depending which end the horse stood it was either bigger or smaller! So he would show the horse to the client and put a measuring stick on it to "prove" that it was the required height.
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Erm, no horses are measured in like this. You have to go to the vets with a registered JMB measurer and have it all done properly, with a laser, blood tests, etc. It's strict beyond belief.
Until the horse is 7 or 8 it won't get an life height certificate either.

If you have an objection at shows with one being overheight, call for a re-measure then. If it is then overheight,then they'll lose their placing. Simples. [though remember,all horses once at shows throughout the season will be a good inch bigger with added condition and muscle over the top of their withers and all over and WILL seem bigger. And definately be bigger than when they'd have been measured in at the start of the year, roughed off slightly. Pro show produced condition and amateur produced condition, as derogative as it may seem saying it, IS completely different, hence why some may seem so much bigger.]
 
Some horses just look big.
Undersaddle my connemara looks huge, and seemingly towers over my showpony. They are both measured at 14hh but as soon as you put a saddle on him the connie grows a hand.

I've actualy had a judge at a show place him last in the inhand class and first in the ridden class on the same day and against similar competition. My connie is NOT an inhand pony, he doesnt show himself off so he looks absolutly nothing inhand, goes like a donkey and looks tiny. Ridden he struts his stuff, looks impressive and rides massive. Several people have made comments about his height and at local level I've had to produce his height cert, they think he is around 15hh (connies max height 14.2hh) but I know even fully fit in show condition, in the middle of show season he is unlikely to even measure as 14.1hh.
So they eye can be very decieveing.
 
At the Royal Welsh many years ago, the Small Hunter class was won by a name on an animal that should have been in the Lightweights, it was 16.2 easily. It then went on to sweep the board that year. Subsequently sold it was 'retired to the hunting field'.
 
most horses gain ther height certificates outside of the showing season when they have no condition on them, there feet do get cut as far back as they can, and dehyrating them, but all of these are pointless if you cant get your horse to relax

Showing classes are judged on a point scheme so a horse with bad conformation that gives a fab ride could quite easily do better than a horse with good conformation but gives a bad ride, nothing is ever a forgone conclusion, just like in workers just because your clear doesnt mean youve won the class as i beat clears when id had a pole out because id made up marks on ride/mannars and conformation

A good jockey can make a and average horse look good, whereas a average jockey makes a good horse look bad
 
I used to have an absolute beauty of a show cob. He was admired by all and won everything at local level. I was advised to affilliate him and do the Search For a star by a very well respected national and international judge. I trotted off to my first affiliated show and all the big names were there. We were going round the ring and I truly believed I had brought the wrong horse and was riding round the ring on a minature shetland. My boy was 15 hands and half an inch high. Some of the cobs were closer to 16 hh than 15hh. I quickly realised there was no point in continuing and gave up.

I do agree that the professional producers have worked very hard to get where they are now but in some cases now they've got there, they are just flaunting their position and taking advantage (oh and taking the peee as well)

It is interesting though, the number of top class, multiple championship winning cobs that have been sold from their "professional" producers yards and are now owned by amateurs and being shown in maxi cob classes.
 
But Offical Objections are not that easy.....there are strict rules as to who can object (eg fellow competitor or judge/show official) and any objection has to be in writing accompanied by a fee of £600 :eek::mad::(
The fee is refunded if the objection is successful........
 
At the end of the day getting you horse measured is a game, if you are good at it you succeed!!!

Most JMB vets are patient and will wait for the horse to relax as they are aware its in a strange place and will be tense some vets are prepared to wait hours.

I am very fortunate my horse has measured in this year and has now got his life height at the required height I need.

With showing you need to be prepared to take the knocks and ignore some very stupid comments that can come your way, and take on the positives.
 
its true, ive been at many a "pony" bsja show and been left wondering if id mistaken for a mixed bsja. some that are aprently "14.2" and actually closer to the 15.2 mark. yes they may have to have a JMB certificate but each time there is ways round it, i should know this because my pony before i had him was mesured by JMB as a 13.2 when infact he is actually 14.1. i dont know why people feel the need to do this as i jump my 14.1 in seniors and he is very good competition in foxhunter classes against 16.2's and he isnt a "full up" 14.1 as they say. also i dont get how people can say "full up 14.2" how come this happens? they can be eathier 14.2 or not? anyways rant ovverrr
 
rushyj said:
Which answer would you like? how they actually get a genuinely over height horse measured in under by a straight vet or how do they get away with it in the ring. There are many answers some will tell you the horses are not given water for 3 days before measuring some will say they hack the feet back to the pedal bones but my personal favorite is they have really heavy riders ride them to be measured lol.

Anyway in all seriousness how they get away with it is through years of dedication and hard work, a good eye for a horse and attention to detail which gives them excellent results in the ring which then attracts the "big name" owners.

So to be brief the answer can only be that they are where they are because they are good. If a horse is remeasured over height they will lose the placing and they only way for an amateur to get the same treatment is to go in the ring time and time again with a totally correct horse that is beautifully turned out and schooled and gain respect that takes years to attain.
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Well that whole scenario sucks, big time. A complete travesty, a novice with a correct height horse should always beat an overheight horse of the same quality. How people can feel good by winning on a LIE is beyond me,.
 
Unfortuately there are some very not very nice at all ways to get them under the stick.
Trim back their hooves hard and bute them. Dehydration causes loss the space to contract and the worst one I have heard of excerising till the muscles collapse.
There is an app that allows you to measure something by taking a photo, until there are spot checks and qualifications are withheld this will go on.
 
honetpot said:
Unfortuately there are some very not very nice at all ways to get them under the stick.
Trim back their hooves hard and bute them. Dehydration causes loss the space to contract and the worst one I have heard of excerising till the muscles collapse.
.
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Yep, stick them on the horse walker overnight.
 
They get away with it because the only people with enough money to object to the horse or ponies height are other producers who in turn don't want to be pulled in for remeasuring as payback. And if any amatuers object then they face being unfavouribly judged for the next few years.

Yes I know that's not supposed to happen but not a single person in showing could say that everything is rosey with conviction.
 
I find it difficult as a judge to know what to do with these 'odd' height ponies. I only do local level judging but as I own a 15hh Connie that I have measured myself but who's passport says he is just 14.2hh, I can totally understand all your woes. When I did BSPS on my old horse Murphy he measured in with JMB at 152cms, so we went in Hunter Pony 153cms and below and you guessed it we were not the tallest by a long shot!
 
It's not just in showing though. My lad has a JMB at 148cm and is closer to 15hh. He was raced and jumped as a pony but I now compete him in seniors where he is dwarfed by the majority of horses.
 
Andalusianlover said:
It is interesting though, the number of top class, multiple championship winning cobs that have been sold from their "professional" producers yards and are now owned by amateurs and being shown in maxi cob classes.
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It isn't just cobs that grow after they leave producers yards, but in fairness often this is because the horse was with a producer when it was 4 / 5 and has since grown. Hence why you can't get a full certificate until a horse is 7. Never buy a full up to height 4 year old....
 
ester said:
I'm all for some sort of max height barrier on the entrance to the show ring........ but have images of teaching horses how to limbo ;) :D
Click to expand...

This is not as daft as it may sound. You could easily use a laser beam to check height as horses enter a ring, stop on a mat & a steward could do it. It would be very quick, no cavorting horses etc.If ruled overheight you could appeal to the judge for it to be checked. If overheight it would be taken into account in the judging like, say, a splint or any other fault.
 
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