Owner terminating Loan Do I have any rights?

siobhain

siobhain

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Hi there,
I will be seeking legal advice tomorrow but just thought I would do a quick post on here to put my mind at rest or prepare me for the enivitable.

In May a horse at our yard was abandoned by who we belived to be the owner it conspired she only had the horse on loan and the horses owner was traced. The owner was scared of the horse and financially unable to keep it so asked me to ride it to take advert pictures with the intention of advertising it for a couple of hundred pounds to get rid of it in days.

I fell in love with the horse and agreed to take it on loan with a view to buy immediatly (take on immediatly not buy) . The owner visted maybe 4-5 times since June 1st and we agreed I was definietly buying her as soon as I was able and a sum verbally agreed.

At the time the horse was considered worthless so we agreed on £500 as that is around what she would be worth as broodmare/meat money.

fast forward to now and with a lot of time and money put in the horse is looking and going fantastically and lots of her issues have been sorted out.

Today The owner visted and proposed a 'plan' she had thought up. She wants to move the horse to the riding school she now works at as she can keep it there for free and she now feels she would be able to ride and handle the horse (due to the work I have put in). She has said I can have half ownership for free and still be involved with the horse
I would not be happy with this as she is a very sensitive mare and a one owner horse and i couldent stand to see her become miserable and get ruined all over again.
I asked if i could buy her for the sum agreed tomorrow and she said no she no longer wanted to sell as £500 wouldent be enough to buy her another horse, and if i didnt want to go along with the plan she would be taking her back.

So where do I stand? Do i have any comeback? will she be liable for the money and time I have put in to this horse since June? Or is it just tough luck its her horse at the end of the day? We had a very flimsy loan agreement that I believe was dated to end Dec 1st.

Any advice / experiances appreciated, I am utterly heart broken :(
 
Awful situation - I really feel for you. Is there anything in your loan agreement about buying the horse If not, I'm afraid that you are in a no win situation. Sadly you have put in the work on a horse that is not yours (although I know you hoped she would be) and the owner now thinks that she would like the horse back again now that she is a far more trained horse. People are gits, aren't they?? xx
 
flamehead said:
So you havent bought this horse? As in, you havent given the £500 to her? xx
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Nope payment was last discussed at christmas she was all "dont worry theres no rush you can jsut give me £50 a month if you want." I then never heard from her again untill today and was told she was no longer for sale
 
kirstyl said:
Awful situation - I really feel for you. Is there anything in your loan agreement about buying the horse If not, I'm afraid that you are in a no win situation. Sadly you have put in the work on a horse that is not yours (although I know you hoped she would be) and the owner now thinks that she would like the horse back again now that she is a far more trained horse. People are gits, aren't they?? xx
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this is what i feared :( hate people!!
 
No sorry you don't have any come back on this. legally the owner can do what she wants, no money has changed hands, she does not have to sell if she doesn't want to and even if you had a contract drawn up at the start of the loan it wouldn't be enough to stop her taking the horse back.
 
I think that unless you had a written contract that you would be buying the horse for £500 by 'x' date, I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

I fell foul of something similar several years back. I'd never do it again.... :o(
 
From what you've said i don't think you have anything to go off really. She still owns the horse, your contract has expired...

It's a horrible world, i understand how heart broken you are, my share was taken back by his 'official' owner (given to who i have been loaning/ sharing him off years ago as a present) on thursday. Now his feet are sorted, he's not a skinny wreck and he's schooling and jumping nicely.

So big hugs from me but i don't see there's much you can do unfortunately. I'm not loaning/ sharing again now until i can buy my own. This (or similar) happens pretty much every time in my experience.

x
 
this kind of thing terrifies me....the loaning and the owner taking back....as in your case!
Sorry to hear this but if contract has ended then as I see it you do not have a leg to stand on and it's just awful that the owner wants her horse back now that you have put all the work and effort into her

would it not be possible to give owner a few more quid (not that you should have to) just to secure the mare, or do the half ownership thing....cause I doubt that she will be able to handle or get on with the mare at the riding school esp of mare is a sensitive soul so that you can then buy her out right and take her away!!!

sorry couldn't really be of more help, but sounds like an awful situation. :( :( :(
 
She is the owner so she can do what she likes. If the horse is a nice horse then you have had a couple of months to pay the £500. Personally if I liked a horse a lot and the owner offered to sell it to me for peanuts then I'd have bought it then and there.
 
Lack of rights in connection with current arrangements
BUT would it not be possible to negotiate a price to buy the horse in question??
Have you explained to the owner that the horse is in your opinion a one person mount?
Have you given your opinion on any issues or dangers that may arise from the horse being used in a riding school environment?
Make your case, then contact the owner and haggle hard - the legal advice if paid for, would be a waste of your money.
 
This sort of thing is very hard to win against when there IS a written, signed and witnessed contract between both parties, if no contract then you have no leg to stand on I'm afraid. Loans are a nightmare, especially when the horse is young or requires work put in, the outcome is so often this situation. If there is a contract then you could possibly have a small leg to stand on, but even then it may cost a fair amount to pursue with no guarantee of an outcome you'd be happy with anyway. Ultimately the owner is the one holding all the cards here.

So sorry for you.
 
Well i would have to slightly disagree here, you should have snapped the horse up while you had the chance, but you also did have a verbal contract, which im sure can be witnessed by others?

Personally i would send her a bill for the time and money you have spent in getting her horse into this position where she is able to ride it again, its blatently taking the mickey. You didnt put this work in for her to come and have a 'free' schooled horse for her to take over.

The only thing i would say though, if she does take the horse back, without your watchful eye, the horse will revert to its previous behaviour with this woman, and it wont be long before she wants you to have it back again.

I think i would see a solicitor and send her a letter. Im afraid if it was me i would be fuming and would want paying for my work done on the horse.
 
Thankyou for your replies everyone, I was pretty sure everythign you have said would be the case but I guess i just hoped maybe I could present her with a schooling bill & she would dissapear.

I am sort of kicking myself I just didnt buy her earlier but to be fair Im not sure she ever actually would have sold her to me now. Free schooling livery what could be better!?
Just wish sometimes people had the horses welfare as the utmost prioroty.

I will have a discussion with the owner about my concerns and perhaps offer her more although Im not sure the mare would pass the vet so she wont ever be worth too much more even now shes performing - today i had to walk away from her and said I would call as I was too upset

xx
 
Is the mare actually going to be used in the riding school or just stabled there?

Sadly, I don't think you have any rights at all, and I would highly advise against joint ownership!
 
HashRouge said:
Is the mare actually going to be used in the riding school or just stabled there?

Sadly, I don't think you have any rights at all, and I would highly advise against joint ownership!
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I believe she will have to work there. This is whats got to me the most I would be happier if she was taking her back to sell her. but this is all so unfair on the horse and she really doesnt deserve it she had already been through such a tough time and shes just finally happy and settled.
 
Sounds like a horrible situation to be in, I am really sorry for you!

I think you are probably better off talking to a lawyer as it's not straight-forward. As far as I know verbal contracts are legally binding in the UK, but proving what was agreed and making the owner stick to it may be both very difficult and very costly.

Hope you find a solution that allows you to keep the mare.
 
Daisychain said:
Well i would have to slightly disagree here, you should have snapped the horse up while you had the chance, but you also did have a verbal contract, which im sure can be witnessed by others?

Personally i would send her a bill for the time and money you have spent in getting her horse into this position where she is able to ride it again, its blatently taking the mickey. You didnt put this work in for her to come and have a 'free' schooled horse for her to take over.

The only thing i would say though, if she does take the horse back, without your watchful eye, the horse will revert to its previous behaviour with this woman, and it wont be long before she wants you to have it back again.

I think i would see a solicitor and send her a letter. Im afraid if it was me i would be fuming and would want paying for my work done on the horse.
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Thankyou, against the majority here who in my heart of hearts I think I know are right im still going to talk to a solicitor and depending on what they say write her a bill. I feel like I have to at least try.

What you said about wont be long till she wants me to have it back again is the worst part. I KNOW this is what will happen. I just feel so helpless and I love the mare so much I just dont know what to do.

After the owner left today she even sent me a text telling me she doesnt want to lose me and the work Ive done with the horse. Bloody cheek! x
 
it sounds like this horse will 'act' up again once the owner has it back, in which case the owner will either sell quick or come crawling back to you.

i would personally make sure i keep a close eye/close contact with the owner and/or horse and make sure that i'm around should things go wrong, if you really like the horse then be ready to buy it and do it quick instead of hanging around or bartering.

obviously if it all works out then you should give yourself a pat on the back for allowing this horse to have a second chance which from the sounds of it it wouldn't have had if you hadn't have stepped in to reschool it.

the other option would be to bill the owner for the livery, work and things like that and maybe see if she can see sense. good luck and i hope whatever happens the horse is happy.
 
A contract is a contract whether written or verbal. If she made a verbal agreement to sell you the horse for £500 then you have a right to buy the horse for £500. The law is on your side.

If you have any witnesses to the contract made, emails etc then you can take a claim against her in the small claims court (cheap and easy) for the reschooling work that you have put into this horse with no reward.

If you have no witnesses or evidence you are unlikely to get anywhere so don't waste any money on lawyers.

p.s congrats on having the skills to have put the mare right.
 
Sorry to hear you're in such a crap situation.
Unfortunately I dont think you have a leg to stand on, because when it goes wrong either way on a loan, its such a grey area, and trying to do anything legally is just stupidly costly.

I had it the other way around, loaned out a really nice mare, 6 months later I had to go get her, she was so out of control she scared the hell out of me. I had to sell her for 400 quid to someone I knew who could certainly sort her issue out, a £2000 loss !

Needless to say I'd never loan a horse out again, but equally so I'd never loan one.
I'd be angry as hell in your shoes right now, people are so god damn selfish. All the owner is seeing is £ signs !!

Walk away, insist she picks her up right now, and tell her straight she's taking the pee, that you didn't put all that time and effort in and spend all that money for her benefit.
Tell her she will be picking up her remaining livery bill - and dont spend another penny, or lift another finger, tell her to look after her own horse!

If this sounds harsh, just remind yourself that she's made it plainly clear its HER horse, and you have no rights.

To continue looking after her until she collects her makes a mug of you.

Loans can work if you get a decent horse on loan, and you aren't providing free schooling, you've been used, and yeah I sure bet she doesn't want to lose you, she wants to keep you around to to iron out all the problems she'll have when she moves her. I hope to god you're not gonna be daft enough to go there and taken for another ride ! x
 
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Hiya, i've been through something along the lines the same (well not realy haha)

But, I had loaned a mare out for 2years since she was six, my mum couldn't afford to buy her for me then, I schooled, completed and got through a number of issues with her and had plans to go to our first BSJA that coming year! Owner new, was so happy with everything and always had said to us if we wanted to buy her we were welcome but shes happy in the loan agreement.

Then oneday out of the blue i got a text from her saying the mare will be for sale at the end of the month, I replied that it was her duty to take the horse from my yard to hers as i wasn't happy paying for a horse that i'd be showing to people to be sold.

I got no reply and after a few phone calls at the end of the month still nothing! I clearly stated i will not be paying for her whilest she is for sale.

Then one day i got back from a hack and was greeted by the owner telling me she was sold to someone on my yard! Of course i flipped, and left very a very upset teenager!

My mum had got a livery bill and forwarded to the ex owner and she simply refused to pay the bill, the yard owners had telelphoned her a number of times but nothing!
Still to this day hasn't been paid, now and again we used to get the bill through.

But there is simply nothing you can do unless in writing and signed, loanings horrible, and i'd never do it again, although some people are very lucky in loaning!
I hope everything gets sorted for you,
Sorry for such a long post! Your not the only one out there! DEffinately seek some legal advice, never know what your entitled to!
 
I am very sorry for the OP that this has all gone pear shaped, but please can I use this thread as an opportunity to say PLEASE - if you sell a horse, sell it. If you buy a horse, buy it. If you have a horse on loan /out to loan, get all your terms in writing either way. You would not believe the convoluted terms that I see some people do - " I want to buy your horse, but can I leave a deposit and then when I sell my youngster, who I've got someone interested in, but I'm taking their brood mare in a part exchange but I can't take her till I've moved yards in 3 months and I also need to sell my box to make up the difference, but my friend's interested in that for someone she knows.........." I really do get that sort of thing. No. If you want the horse, pay over the cash or a cheque at the time. If you're selling, don't part with the horse until the cheque has cleared and then once you've sold it, I'm afraid it's gone. Decide whether ownership passes at the time you agree a sale or when the cheque has cleared or whenever and say so.

There are very many people who put a horse out on loan because they can't cope and then when they see the horse going well - which it may not for them - think, ooh, great, I'll have it back now. The person who's put the work in won't have any comeback. On the other hand, some people like having horses on short term loan to sort them out as they like the challenge and once that one is sorted, they get another one. No problem as long as both parties are clear on this. You could just as easily take a horse on loan and for whatever reason, leave it in a field for 6 months. As long as your agreement wasn't that the horse was going to you for schooling, so what?

I have to say that loans do not depend on written agreements to work. The written agreements can help if things go wrong, but loans in my experience ( and I have both horses on loan to me and have had them out on loan) work because the parties get on. I did a loan agreement once where one of the (many) particular terms was that the bed should always be at least 10" in depth. Now how on earth did the person loaning think she was going to enforce that other than going down to the yard every day with a tape measure? I thought, hmm, this is not going to work and tried to dissuade the person loaning from doing it - the horse was going to a professional and well known dressage rider - but she wouldn't have it. The horse went off on the Friday and was returned on the Sunday as the person loaning was such a pain!
 
Why didn't you just buy the horse for £500? At the end of the day the owner owns the horse so ithey have full rights to do as they please unless there is a written agreement saying otherwise.
 
Dont present her with a schooling bill she wont pay it and it will only alienate her. As hard and as unfair as it is try to keep a civil communication with the owner.

I feel this horse will come back to you if you try to maintain friendly contact with the owner.

I was in a very similar situation with a pony we had on loan for my daughter so I can totally sympathise. Some people are just so crooked and their word means nothing.

Good luck to you.
 
cptrayes said:
A contract is a contract whether written or verbal. If she made a verbal agreement to sell you the horse for £500 then you have a right to buy the horse for £500. The law is on your side.

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Except that if there is no evidence of this it is just your work against theirs, which will not stand up to any legal proceedings! Otherwise anyone could claim a verbal agreement was in place in any circumstance! This is why is 'should' be written AND witnessed preferably by a 3rd party with no involvement in the agreement.

Certainly if this gets nasty you could try to send an invoice with a reasonable charge for re-schooling etc and see if it gets you anywhere, but it really will be a case of grasping at straws. Good luck anyway, don't be cajolled (sp?) into paying out more than the horse is worth, (you said it wouldn't pass a vetting)

hugs to you and well done for getting the horse to the point it is at now, if you are good at reschooling, if this doesn't work out, think about an x race horse, sounds like you may have the skills to make one of them into a nice horse and offer it a lovely home.

x
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles OP, people can be so vile sometimes :(

I'm not sure how many people who have replied on this thread are lawyers, but you are doing the right thing going to see a solicitor tomorrow. When legal problems come up on this forum a lot of people who know nothing at all about law tend to reply in amongst the knowledgable ones!

I'm not a contract lawyer (property is my field) so can't really help you, but good luck tomorrow - your solicitor is much better placed to advise you, in full possession of all the facts. Hopefully you will at least be able to recoup some money for livery and schooling; don't be frightened of going through small claims, it's not as big a deal as people make out :)
 
The other way of looking at this is that you have had free use of her horse, for the time you have had her. If you couldn't pay the £500 she wanted, and it sounds as if she gave you plenty of time, then she has the right to decide to do something different.
I know the situation must feel awful, but this is one of the problems with loaning, the owner remains the owner and can choose what she does with it.
 
Just wanted to say thanks again for everyones input and sorry if I havent replied to your post directly, Im on dodgy internet.

Believe me I am kicking myself I didnt just pay for her earlier and have it done with but as I said above I now have a sneaky feeling this wouldent have helped and this situation would have cropped up at whatever point I tried to pay for her.

I am quite young and £500 is actually quite a lot for me (she is the first horse Ive had after a break from riding that wasnt paid for and kept by my parents) but yes I could have paid for her times over but i spent every penny on corrective shoeing,dentists, chiros, tack, lessons etc as i stupidly truely never believed her 17 stone novice owner would want her 16hh fine sharp as a knife warmblood back. (she told me this many times herself) And even said in her text to me about meeting up to drop this bombshell on me that "you own her just as much as I do".

But again thankyou I will report back on the outcome of this either way xx
 
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